Happy 40th Birthday Novus Ordo

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What does political name-calling have to do with anything? FYI - I for one would never forgo Mass or even speak against it if things changed as you mentioned. The reality is greater than my feelings. Humble obedience is more important than pushing what I want.
Because it is easier to brand someone a “liberal,” a "modernist" or even a “Novus Ordo Catholic” (my personal favorite was being called a "Southern Baptist" because I have a preference for the Pauline Missal) than it is to address issues on their merit. Remember there was one here who called himself a good, “traditional” Catholic but did not attend Mass because there wasn’t an Extraordinary Form around and he refused to attend the Ordinary Form of the Mass.

Like I said before, the “traditionalists” insist that the “Novus Ordo Catholics” are the ones who believe that it’s all about me. Reviewing the many posts here suggests that the shoe just may be on the wrong foot.
 
If you honestly do not see any of the NO aspects I described then you too are very lucky. However,** I suspect you** have and if not you should realize they are quite common based on spending time on this website. For the sake of argument I didn’t even get into serious abuses we all know occur. To suggest I’m making strawmen leads** me to question your sincerity and motivation**.
I have to say that is the nicest way I have ever been accused of dishonesty. I am incensed by your judgementalism.

Again, start a survey. Get our of the little clique of traditionalist and you will see most faithful Catholics do not fit the stereotype this article and others paint. I mentioned bias before. When bias becomes bigotry and results in slander, no it is not a virtue.
 
You can always tell you’re winning an argument with a liberal (liturgical) when the insults start flying.
Insults like using the word “liberal”? Accusing people of duplicity? You criticize others for that which you do.
 
I am incensed by your judgementalism.
This may be the root cause of all this hostility. I am not judging anyone. The Novus Ordo is a simplified (some say dumbed down) liturgy which removed much Catholicism from the Ordinary Form of the time. Many people find the NO lacking in reverence, teaching, and spiritual fulfillment. Bugnini is quoted as saying the NO is a different liturgy entirely. If you and others are taking these observations personally then the onus is on you to survey your heart and find out why.
 
If these traits are foreign to you be very thankful. If you honestly believe they are not common then stick around these forums for awhile and you’ll see otherwise.
The place to discover the traits common to the Novus Ordo Mass is at the Mass.
Unless one is not interested in fact, but rather opinion.
The Novus Ordo is the most prevelant form in the US right now, and it is very easy to attend the Mass at a wide veriaty of churches to see for oneself.
Don’t accuse someone of lying or deception unless positive of your assertions. That’s not very charitable of you.
My assertion is that the statement was false.
The assertion made was “Here is an overview of the typical…”
It clearly was not.
The author of those words made a statement that was false.

Now if the author had claimed that this was their experience, it may have been acceptable. But they did not, they instead claimed a typical Novus Ordo Mass…and it was clearly not the case.

I can assure you it was charity to call the author on these falsehoods.
It would have been uncharitable to allow them to continue the deception.
 
vz71

Surveys are free. If you want to test a topic, run one. For example, you could run a survey on whether people kneel or stand during the Consecration. I am sure the results would not surprise you, but it would help strengthen the idea that traditionalists love their strawmen. Parody, satire and carachature do not make for truth. It is a low form of insult and obscures truth.
I agree.
Whenever I travel I attend the Novus Ordo.
The Mass I regularly attend is such.
And I see abuses regularly. But given the number of abuses I see compared to the number I actually attend, My experience tells me that abuse is atypical.

I think it would be fascinating to run two identical surveys; 1 here in this sub forum and another in a different one. A comparison of the two may prove interesting.
 
To suggest I’m making strawmen leads me to question your sincerity and motivation.
To suggest that the abuses you list are common practice is deception.

It speaks volumes that your case for TLM over the Novus Ordo utilizes deception instead of truth.
 
If you and others are taking these observations personally then the onus is on you to survey your heart and find out why.
It is interesting that you now wish to place the onus of disproving your assertions upon those that dispute it.

You made several posits, the onus is upon the one that made the positive assertions.

Do I see some squirming here?
 
The place to discover the traits common to the Novus Ordo Mass is at the Mass.
Unless one is not interested in fact, but rather opinion.
The Novus Ordo is the most prevelant form in the US right now, and it is very easy to attend the Mass at a wide veriaty of churches to see for oneself.
It is most prevalent but it also has most options and most vernaculars. It would be hard for any one person to experience all of them or even a wide variety. I’ve been to countless parishes in my life and I have yet to see two that are done exactly the same way. Most have some “abuse” according to the CA standards, but when when you’ve achieved the level of “I’m not surprised” anymore, then you can go to the next level of really appreciating the Mass. Tough to do with the OF, I know, but it can be done.
 
I am sure the results would not surprise you, but it would help strengthen the idea that traditionalists love their strawmen. Parody, satire and carachature do not make for truth. It is a low form of insult and obscures truth.
I fear once the EF becomes more widespread, it too will be subjected to surveys and polls that insult its churchgoers. So be happy with all the OF options and vernaculars and guitars and altar girls because I’m sure they’ll be introduced into the EF at some point and then you can all proudly say “Hey we beat you to the punch.” 🙂
 
If you and others are taking these observations personally then the onus is on you to survey your heart and find out why.
When someone accuses me of dishonesty like you I am not to take it personally? It was a personal attack. An ad hominem post.

Matthew 7:1-5
"Stop judging, that you may not be judged. For as you judge, so will you be judged, and the measure with which you measure will be measured out to you. Why do you notice the splinter in your brother’s eye, but do not perceive the wooden beam in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me remove that splinter from your eye,’ while the wooden beam is in your eye? You hypocrite, remove the wooden beam from your eye first; then you will see clearly to remove the splinter from your brother’s eye.
 
I fear once the EF becomes more widespread, it too will be subjected to surveys and polls that insult its churchgoers. So be happy with all the OF options and vernaculars and guitars and altar girls because I’m sure they’ll be introduced into the EF at some point and then you can all proudly say “Hey we beat you to the punch.” 🙂
Who knows what the future holds? I sure do not claim to. I will be happy with anything. Obedient, submissive and happy. In this regard, the shoe can not be on the other foot.
 
When someone accuses me of dishonesty like you I am not to take it personally? It was a personal attack. An ad hominem post.

Matthew 7:1-5

"Stop judging, that you may not be judged. For as you judge, so will you be judged, and the measure with which you measure will be measured out to you. Why do you notice the splinter in your brother’s eye, but do not perceive the wooden beam in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me remove that splinter from your eye,’ while the wooden beam is in your eye? You hypocrite, remove the wooden beam from your eye first; then you will see clearly to remove the splinter from your brother’s eye.
It would be good for you to remember that in your attacks against the SSPX and its membership.
 
To suggest that the abuses you list are common practice is deception.

It speaks volumes that your case for TLM over the Novus Ordo utilizes deception instead of truth.
Just so we’re clear, you are saying the following are not common in the Novus Ordo:

Here’s an overview of the typical NO Mass:
  • No opportunity for the Sacrament of Confession
  • Greeters. 'Nuff said
  • Prior to Mass: Chatting in the pews. Majority don’t genuflect. Almost no one in prayer.
  • Master of Ceremonies makes mundane announcements
  • Orans Posture by laity
  • Lectors and Cantors
  • “God loves you…you should love Him…love one another” type homily
  • Pop/Folk Sing-songy hymns, sometimes written by one of the greatest schmatics: Luther
  • Various options to the Canon. You never know for sure what you’re going to get
  • Some parishes kneel, some stand, options…
  • Hand holding during Pater Noster
  • Sign of Peace free for all, people waving, crossing aisles, embracing
  • EMHCs whether needed or not (albeit never actually needed)
  • Nearly 100% receive Holy Communion even though practically no one goes to Confession anymore
  • After Mass: Applause for the choir, sometimes birthday or anniversary announcements, chatting, almost no one in prayer.
Can you confirm that you are saying the above is not an accurate description? Not every point has to be at every Mass, but generally common practice.
 
It would be good for you to remember that in your attacks against the SSPX and its memberships.
What has the SSPX to do with this topic?

I have never accused anyone of lying or engaged in ad hominem attacks but once and that was nothing to do with the SSPX. Yes, I have attacked and opposed the SSPX as a group, specificaly when they come here to recruit faithful Catholics, as they have done in the past. I have also opposed and attacked the arguements they have used to attack the Holy Catholic Church.

You and Ockham want to start a new thead about me or do you just want to get this one locked? The point is, I do not agree that Ockham’s claims are universal as he claims. Instead of seeking data, he accused me of duplicity.
 
For those who do not consider me dishonest, here is my list of what Mass is like:

-* No opportunity for the Sacrament of Confession* - Plenty of opportunity. 1-5 times a week

- Greeters. Yes, though not an abuse. They are not allowed to speak in the vestibule before Mass.
  • Prior to Mass: Chatting in the pews. Majority don’t genuflect. Almost no one in prayer. _ True, though this is not a part of Mass. Only about half genuflect. Pretty much everyone prays before Mass, though.
  • Master of Ceremonies makes mundane announcements - We have no such postition
  • Orans Posture by laity - Only a semi-orans by some during the Pater Noster
  • Lectors and Cantors - Yes, though not an abuse.
  • "God loves you…you should love Him…love one another" type homily - Yes. This is sometimes the topic of the homily and of the Gospel. God does love us. Yes, we should love one another. Is this not part of the Traditionalist view of God and Charity? Perhaps this explains some of the posts.
  • Pop/Folk Sing-songy hymns, sometimes written by one of the greatest schmatics: Luther - Yes, They are common. Again, not an abuse.
  • Various options to the Canon. You never know for sure what you’re going to get. Yes, though never that are not approved.
  • Some parishes kneel, some stand, options… - We always kneel when we should, stand when we should
  • Hand holding during Pater Noster- Yes, most do this.
  • Sign of Peace free for all, people waving, crossing aisles, embracing - The sign of Peace is part of the Liturgy. It lasts for ten seconds before the Agnus Dei commences. I time it. If family members embrace, I do not know.
- EMHCs whether needed or not (albeit never actually needed) - LOL. Again, not an abuse, but an opinion. We have one priest for one thousand families and five Masses. Yes, we will always use 2-3.

- Nearly 100% receive Holy Communion even though practically no one goes to Confession anymore - More like 90%. we have frequent Confession and it is preached and average of once a month.

- After Mass: Applause for the choir, sometimes birthday or anniversary announcements, chatting, almost no one in prayer. Never any applause for the music. Maybe six times a year and applause for someone celebrating a long, landmark anniversary. There is chatting, mostly in the vestibule. About 25 % pray before leaving.
 
Just so we’re clear, you are saying the following are not common in the Novus Ordo:

Here’s an overview of the typical NO Mass:…
Experience has shown me otherwise.
Now if you have some kind of surveys you would like to bring forward or perhaps some kind of reputable publication to back your assertion, bring it.

Otherwise simply admit to the deception and move on.
 
I’m not sure what type of survey you are looking for. Survey the thread topics on this website and you should be able to get a sense of how the Novus Ordo is practiced globally. Of course you realize the Church isn’t restricted to the US.

Basically you are saying the Novus Ordo Masses you attend don’t have much of what I’ve described. If that’s true then count your blessings. However, you should ask yourself why the Vatican issued the following: vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/ccdds/documents/rc_con_ccdds_doc_20040423_redemptionis-sacramentum_en.html

If the Novus Ordo is being said so reverently and free of abuse why did the Vatican issue a document concerning the opposite?
 
=Ockham;"It is 40 years ago today since the New Mass of Paul VI was introduced into our parishes, writes Margery Popinstar, editor of The Capsule. We knew at the time that this liturgy was as close to perfection as humanly possible, but little did we guess what an efflorescence of art, architecture, music and worship lay ahead!
There were fears at first that the vernacular service would damage the solemnity of the Mass. How silly! Far from leading to liturgical abuses, the New Mass nurtured a koinonia that revived Catholic culture and packed our reordered churches to the rafters.
So dramatic was the growth in family Mass observance, indeed, that a new school of Catholic architecture arose to provide places of worship for these new congregations. Throughout the Western world, churches sprang up that combined Christian heritage with the thrilling simplicity of the modern school, creating a sense of the numinous that has proved as irresistible to secular visitors as to the faithful…]" Damian Thompson
Telegraph.co.uk blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/damianthompson/100018329/happy-40th-birthday-novus-ordo/

***13] "Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few. "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. **** You will know them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thorns, or figs from thistles? So, every sound tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears evil fruit. A sound tree cannot bear evil fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. [19] Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus you will know them by their fruits. "Not every one who says to me, Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, `I never knew you; depart from me, you evildoers.’ “Every one then who hears these words of mine and does them will be like a wise man who built his house upon the rock; and the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat upon that house, but it did not fall, because it had been founded on the rock. And every one who hears these words of mine and does not do them will be like a foolish man who built his house upon the sand; and the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell; and great was the fall of it.”

Oh really**🤷***The FACTS don’t seem to support this optomestic position?

P.E.W. Report 2008*

Catholic Mandatory Mass attendence 1970= 70% in 2008 = 23%; percentage of Catholics going to Confession at least once per year about 65% in 1970 and in 2008 10%

As a result of these two stastics how many Catholic Churches have been closed, how many Catholic schools have been closed and how does the FACT that the second largest Christian sec become “Fallen away Catholics?”

Why are we in the URGENT need for priest an religious?

Why are there three times as many self professed Catholics who do not accept…

The Real Presence?

Papal Authority?

The Churches Moral teachings on Abortion and conterception?

Why do Catholic Marriages result in 50% divorice rate?

So friend, tell us the effects you see as GOOD?

Why has our Liturgy beocme Horizonial instead of Vertical and God Focused? 😊 :o**

Dear God help us!***
 
I’m not sure what type of survey you are looking for.
I suggest you start with something that would back what you stated positively.

You said “Here is an overview of the typical…”

The onus is upon you to show your statement to be truth.
My experience says otherwise.

I eagerly await your evidence that the abuses you list are typical.

Else, as I said…simply admit your deception and move on.
 
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