Happy 40th Birthday Novus Ordo

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If the Novus Ordo is being said so reverently and free of abuse why did the Vatican issue a document concerning the opposite?
Always be careful with interpreting Vatican action.

You may well have a point, but just as easily though the point could fail.

What does it say that the Vatican issued a document concerning liturgical abuses?
One could rightfully say they do not know, and it would cover them well should the question be turned on end…what did it say about the TLM that the Novus Ordo had to be introduced?
 
ProVobis said:
“I’ve been to countless parishes in my life and I have yet to see two that are done exactly the same way.”
—in referring to the NO, one would presume.

I attended the only Roman Catholic Mass available on the entire planet from the late 1940’s right up until the changes brought about by the revolution of Vatican II. I can say without credible contradiction that all of the pre-Vatican II Masses were done exactly the same. THAT WAS THE WHOLE POINT! IT WAS CATHOLIC (as in universal, right?) It did not matter whether you were in the Paraguay or in the Philippines, in Australia or Alaska—you knew that this was exactly the same Mass as was said in your home parish. BTW, I don’t remember hearing anyone anywhere back then complaining about the unvarying nature of the TLM worldwide, althought I’m sure someone will try to make the case that there was at that time universal clamoring for change (Wait! Someone has already tried to make that case—AT THE “COUNCIL!”).
 
.what did it say about the TLM that the Novus Ordo had to be introduced?
The Novus Ordo was introduced after introductions of various forms of Mass, many of them unapproved, which had tried to keep with the “spirit” of Vatican II. Lots of misinterpretations after lots of document ambiguity and lots of differing agendas created quite a liturgical chaos. The Novus Ordo was an attempt to consolidate all the different versions of EPs being said and appease as many people as it could with Paul VI’s approval. It really had nothing to do with the TLM.
 
The mere existence of RS proves the NO is not being said as reverently as you suggest. Why did Pope Benedict XVI write “Spirit of the Liturgy” if the OF is generally be practiced properly? The description is typical of NO Masses I’ve been to and based on what is discussed on this forum and others I’m willing to suggest typical in the majority of parishes across the planet.

Your NO does not have the decription I listed?
 
If the Novus Ordo is being said so reverently and free of abuse why did the Vatican issue a document concerning the opposite?
Pope Benedict issued a Motu Proprio to address the need to accommadate those that desire the TLM. The Vatican is currently involved in discussions with the SSPX and has issued several statements concerning them specifically. Neither of these groups represent a large percentage of Catholics. Therefore, it is illogical to correlate the existence of a Vatican initiative with a problem being any certain size. That is simple not the way the Church works. Many of the most rare abuses addressed by the Holy See are the most serious and demand the most immediate attention. Assumption in such matters leads to error.
 
For those who do not consider me dishonest, here is my list of what Mass is like:
I never said the description was a list of abuses. I’m still doubting vz71’s claim that the list doesn’t exist in whole or in part in his/her parish.
 
=marlo;6004060]I would say that the Novus Ordo is very convenient, the short mass, the informal clothing’s, and no theology sermons (sometimes) of the priest. In my view, this is very appropriate for very busy people who needs to go and fullfil to their sunday obligation and do other task after.
However, i would like to see, the TLM in the vernacular with simple songs, not the long musics that take minutes to complete.
***You’re opinion is little doubt the “majority opinion” :o

it say’s’s the Mass is for US… WRONG! :eek:

The Mass is supposed to be be all about thanking God for His Supreme Sacrifice for our Redemption. Thus a Mass can be valid w/o participants!

Mass my friend Mass is not about making it convient for “one to fulfill there Sunday Obligation” which by the way, may NOT actually be accomplished if that is the sole purpose for one attending Mass? Is an hour a week, a half hour, ten minutes sufficient time for God in one BUSY life? What would you’re life be IF God only gave YOU one hour a week of His time? 😦

THE VERY PURPOSE OF LATIN IN MASS IS TO “DIRECT” ONE TO FOCUS ON GOD AND GODLY MATTERS. TO GET AWAY FROM “ME” AND FOCUS ON OUR GOD!

THE EUCHARIST IS A GIFT FROM GOD, OF GOD AND PRIMARLY FOR GOD, OF WHICH WE ARE NOT THE CAUSE, NOR THE EFFECT. WE ARE THE RECEPIANTS OF GOD’S MOST PRECIOUS GIFT, HIMSELF!

How very sad that Mass can’t get over soon enough for some:eek:

You may wish to rethink you’re priorities:o***
 
The Novus Ordo was introduced after introductions of various forms of Mass, many of them unapproved, which had tried to keep with the “spirit” of Vatican II. Lots of misinterpretations after lots of document ambiguity and lots of differing agendas created quite a liturgical chaos. The Novus Ordo was an attempt to consolidate all the different versions of EPs being said and appease as many people as it could with Paul VI’s approval. It really had nothing to do with the TLM.
Quite right. It has nothing to do with the TLM.

So perhaps the Vatican document addressing liturgical abuses has nothing to do with the Novus Ordo.

Thank you for taking my logic full circle.
 
Quite right. It has nothing to do with the TLM.

So perhaps the Vatican document addressing liturgical abuses has nothing to do with the Novus Ordo.

Thank you for taking my logic full circle.
:rotfl:

That’s a great summary of your participation in this thread.

Hey, why do some of the points I listed occur in Newt’s parish? You claim they don’t exist in the US.
 
I never said the description was a list of abuses. I’m still doubting vz71’s claim that the list doesn’t exist in whole or in part in his/her parish.
You are welcome to doubt. I sent my response in to your list to address your mischaracterization of the Novus Ordo Mass, and expected it would be scrutinized.

However, you have yet to supply any evidence whatsoever to your claim concerning the ‘typical’ Novus Ordo Mass.

Will any be forthcoming?
You sounded so authoritative and knowledgable with the writing you made and your claims of ‘typical’
Surely such knowledge of the ‘typical’ Novus Ordo Mass required some kind of research, after all, it was observed later in this thread that it would be difficult to have personal experience with all of the forms of the Mass.
So Post it; I eagerly await it.
 
I attended the only Roman Catholic Mass available on the entire planet from the late 1940’s right up until the changes brought about by the revolution of Vatican II. I can say without credible contradiction that all of the pre-Vatican II Masses were done exactly the same. THAT WAS THE WHOLE POINT! IT WAS CATHOLIC (as in universal, right?) It did not matter whether you were in the Paraguay or in the Philippines, in Australia or Alaska—you knew that this was exactly the same Mass as was said in your home parish.
I too grew up with this Mass from the very early 50’s and while it may have had a universal form it most assuredly was NOT celebrated in the same way universally. To begin with, it too had numerous forms, from low Mass to Missa Cantata to High Mass to Solemn High Mass and if you walked into a parish not your own you never knew which one you might get. Yes, the content was the same but the method of celebration was quite different.

The Masses then were also filled with irreverent people simply “fulfilling their Sunday obligation”. They may not have been chatting but in my experience an awful lot of them weren’t praying either. And in my experience very few of them were engaged in the Mass other than looking up when the bells rang.

And of course there is the problem that many of the priests that I served with were just going through the motions and getting in and out as quickly as possible. There were prayers left out, words changed (including the consecration at times), sermons left out and other abuses every bit as serious, if not more so in some cases, than what occurs in some OF Masses today. To make a case that the TLM is somehow immune to abuse is to be totally disingenous and dishonest. I personally served at many of them that were loaded with abuse, along with many that were presided over by priests who were either inebriated or so hungover they were barely more than just present.

I most assuredly would not characterize today’s TLM as looking like that since those celebrating it now do so out of love for that form. But it most surely did exist in deplorable fashion in many places prior to Vatican II.
BTW, I don’t remember hearing anyone anywhere back then complaining about the unvarying nature of the TLM worldwide, althought I’m sure someone will try to make the case that there was at that time universal clamoring for change (Wait! Someone has already tried to make that case—AT THE “COUNCIL!”).
LOL, I have yet to meet one of the older priests who celebrated both before and after that wasn’t overjoyed to finally be able to say Mass in the vernacular. I’m sure there are some but my contact with dozens of them has not produced a single one who was opposed or who want to go back. I’m quite sure that if it had been put to a vote among the faithful to continue with that Mass or go to a vernacular Mass, even a vernacular version of the TLM, that it would have been a landslide. In those days of “pray, pay and obey” though, even asking the laity would not have been a consideration.

Both forms can be beautifully and reverently celebrated and I have been to some on both sides. Both sides can be abused, and I have seen abuses on both sides. In the end though, the Church has said that they are equal forms of the same rite while trying to eliminate anything that might take away the reverence that should be present. Why we have to continue to have this “my Mass is better than your Mass” stuff just boggles my mind. If you don’t like the OF Mass, by all means go to the EF, or vice versa. Just please though stop with the superiority complexes and thinking that there aren’t devoted and holy people on both “sides” who just happen to say their prayers differently. Different does not not equate to wrong; it simply speaks to the fact that God created us differently and we respond to His call differently. It has been so since the beginning of the Church and likely will be until the second coming. The Body of Christ cannot be divided though and to to engage in this “I follow the TLM” and “I follow the OF” as the basis of defining one’s–or someone else’s–Catholicism is to encourage the very division that Paul so warned us against.

I just don’t believe that Jesus died so we could fight over how to say our prayers.
 
Pope Benedict issued a Motu Proprio to address the need to accommadate those that desire the TLM. The Vatican is currently involved in discussions with the SSPX and has issued several statements concerning them specifically. Neither of these groups represent a large percentage of Catholics. Therefore, it is illogical to correlate the existence of a Vatican initiative with a problem being any certain size. That is simple not the way the Church works. Many of the most rare abuses addressed by the Holy See are the most serious and demand the most immediate attention. Assumption in such matters leads to error.
Redemptionis Sacramentum has nothing to do with the desire for the TLM.

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/ccdds/documents/rc_con_ccdds_doc_20040423_redemptionis-sacramentum_en.html
 
Thus a Mass can be valid w/o participants!
I may be mistaken, I am sure others will correct me if so.

But there needs to be at least one participant.
Without the priest there, no Mass can take place.
 
=vz71;6023047]Always be careful with interpreting Vatican action.

You may well have a point, but just as easily though the point could fail.

What does it say that the Vatican issued a document concerning liturgical abuses?
One could rightfully say they do not know, and it would cover them well should the question be turned on end…what did it say about the TLM that the Novus Ordo had to be introduced?
***My dear enligtened friend,

Please provide the evidence that the NO Mass “HAD TO” be introcuced.

And while you’re at it show us where Vatican II [or any place else] mandated these reforms…

Removal of Altar rails

Hiding of Tabernacles

Altar girls

Walk around altars

Mass w/o Latin

Priest facing the population

Communion under BOTH species

Communion in the hands

Ordinary ministers of the Eucharist [nearly everywhere and everday is HARDLY Extrodinary!]

Chior lofts moved to the from of the Church

Church [no-longer] now “gathering Spaces”***

What do you know that I don’t on these “mandated changes”:rolleyes:
 
You are welcome to doubt. I sent my response in to your list to address your mischaracterization of the Novus Ordo Mass, and expected it would be scrutinized.

However, you have yet to supply any evidence whatsoever to your claim concerning the ‘typical’ Novus Ordo Mass.

Will any be forthcoming?
You sounded so authoritative and knowledgable with the writing you made and your claims of ‘typical’
Surely such knowledge of the ‘typical’ Novus Ordo Mass required some kind of research, after all, it was observed later in this thread that it would be difficult to have personal experience with all of the forms of the Mass.
So Post it; I eagerly await it.
I have provided my proofs. If you choose to ignore them then that’s your preogative. Your assertion that your local NO does not resemble the list I provided can only be taken on your merits. Based on your debating skills in this thread I’ll continue to doubt.
 
That’s a great summary of your participation in this thread.
You can belittle and ridicule if you wish.

It does not lessen your responsibility for what you have claimed.

You need to supply your research to back your claims.

As to your doubts, you can PM me. I will supply specific addresses and Mass times.
You are welcome to attend yourself and see.
 
I and I am certain others on this thread have apparently missed it.

Can you supply a link to the response?
Perhaps even quote the post.

As I said, I eagerly await.
In the spirit of charity I’ll try once again to help you.
  • read Newt’s reply. He collaborated 12 out of 15 of my points
  • read the RS link I posted from the Vatican. If the NO/OF is practiced as reverently as you suggest then why was it written?
  • read "Spirit of the Liturgy. If the NO/OF is practiced as reverently as you suggest then why was it written?
  • read three or four pages of thread titles in the Liturgy and Sacraments forum. If the NO/OF is practiced as reverently as you suggest then why are so many threads started which suggest otherwise?
  • Google “liturgical abuse”
  • visit www.cathcon.blogspot.com and other blogs, websites, forums where the state of the Novus Ordo is discussed
Maybe you live in the most reverent NO diocese in the world, maybe I live in one of the worst. I take it you know Waterloo Ontario is not within the Southeast US so suggesting I drop into your parish for proof is rather disingenuous. The list I provided is typical of the NO Masses said in my diocese, the parishes I’ve visited in North America, and from what I’ve read and listened to typical of everywhere else in the world. That’s my position and I’m standing by it. If you continue to dispute it that’s your preogative. Ok? Can we move on now?
 
ncjohn wrote:

“To make a case that the TLM is somehow immune to abuse is to be totally disingenous and dishonest.”

Now, for you to know that my making such a case proves that I am disingenous[sic] and dishonest would imply, at first blush, at least two things:
  1. That you are God.
  2. That I can make a case which, in law, means that I have proved the truth
    of my case, and that, furthermore, I can do so by being a liar.
Do you see some incongruities here, ncjohn?
You don’t know me, ncjohn, and yet you blithely attack me as though you can see what’s in my soul. Why is that? Is it because you hate the Tridentine Mass, and therefore everyone who happens to revere it? Then again, is it because you fear that the NO will become extinct eventually now that Benedict XVI has allowed the re-emergence of the TLM? Or is it something else? For whatever it’s worth to you, my beef is with the “Spirit of the Council,” not with you, ncjohn. But, since I’m not God, I can’t peer into your soul to see what is motivating your ad hominem rancor.

Peace
 
And to what, exactly, would you change to make it “what it used to be?”

And when did "the Lord has told His Church how to Worship?"
have you ever been to an Orthodox Mass? pretty similar to the once the CC Worshipped. today, NO Mass is not very different from a protestant worship.

i wonder why.

when did our Lord told His Church how to Worship? i’ll let you think about this. do you think the CC made up the Worship to the God all on her own?
 
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