Happy 40th Birthday Novus Ordo

[aicirt]

I grew up going to a Novus Ordo parish pretty much every Sunday. I was not taught the real presence of the Eucharist. I was not taught that confession was an important part of being Catholic. I was not taught that there was such thing as a Holy day of Obligation. I was not taught how to pray the Rosary. I could go on and on. I have moved all over the east coast and met some wonderful Novus Ordo priests and belonged to some decent parishes. The problem is you never know what you’re going to get. When I go to a TLM I can be about 99.9% sure that I’m going to here TRUTH from the priest. That to me is why I choose TLM over Novus Ordo whenever I have the chance. May God bless our Church with holy priests to proclaim the truth of the Gospel in both TLM parishes and Novus Ordo.

Difficult for me to believe any Catholic parish would be so lax as not to teach what was normal for us before. It wasn’t only the instruction that made an impression. It was the reinforcement of that instruction by seeing and participating in tradition and praticies. Knowing about the Real Presence was enforced by genuflecting toward the main altar, and seeing the candle burning in its red shade. The actual confessionals reminded one to go to confession. You could tell on Sunday those who hadn’t made it to confession on Saturday because they remained seated during communion. Seeing statues caused one to ask who were these saints and what did they do to achieve sainthood. Same with the stained glass windows. There was a constant imparting of knowledge.

 

[Elsport1]

You may be right that the True Presence was actually taught (even though I am skeptical) at my church. What I know to be a fact is that I was a reasonably bright conscientious kid who went to mass on Sundays and CCD Monday nights and I never picked up on the fact that the church taught this. I had a vague idea that it was once believed but no concept that this belief was more than outdated foolishness.

 

[ProVobis]

This comment has nothing whatsoever to do with the topic at hand. Please explain why you mentioned the Index of Forbidden Books and what on earth it has to do with the form of Mass which is what we were discussing.

Be happy to. It dealt with the “topic at hand” in the sense it was included in what I was quoting from the 1959 Missal and MIGHT have provided further evidence that the whole paragraph of questions was perhaps obsoleted. Perhaps it was unnecessary but I presented the entire set of questions regarding transgressions against First Commandment as I didn’t want to quote anything out of context. As you pointed out correctly, the Novus Ordo was Catholic all the way. But that was because we all KNEW it was promulgated by the Pope.

 

[ProVobis]

As I understand it there were some that did the same back in the day. I’ve spoken to men who were altar boys then who talked about people coming in to receive communion *before *Mass who then just walked out. Something about having to go to work…

I’m not doubting this never happened. For what it’s worth, though, do remember the percentage of people from the congregation receiving was much lower than it is today. Four daily Masses 6:30, 7, 7:30, 8 and some of us had to serve more than one Mass, sometimes there were unannounced dual Masses at the side altars by visiting priests going on without communion. We wouldn’t have had them if no one cared about the Mass.

 

[Jerry_Parker]

I have decided, after feeling “sourpuss” again at Mass this afternoon (weekday or Saturday low Mass, to avoid all the awful, Vat-II era junk music in the Sunday Mass), that I am going to take my Rosary to Mass for the forseeable future. I always found participating actively in the pre-1970 Latin Mass (1962 and 1965 *Missale Romanum * editions) enriching and worthwhile, but I am tired of feeling angry and frustrated with the shoddy Novus Ordo. The best thing to do is just to block out its text by reciting the Rosay (Jesus Rosary or Marian Rosary), pausing to pay heed to the rite only for the Consecration. This way I can feel serenity rather than frustration at Mass. I never thought that it would come to this, but the Novus Ordo is too substandard and irritating to bear any longer any way other than as passively as possible just to get through it. If I say the Rosay during it, I meet my “Mass obligation” but without feeling aggravated, which is not spiritually helpful at all.

Pax, Jerry Parker

 

[ProVobis]

Jerry, you’re in the right forum.

 

[Jerry_Parker]

Pro Vobis,

I suppose that I am in the right forum, indeed! I am not the only one who would wish “Happy UNbirthday” to the Novus Ordo, i.e. wish rolling things right back to the grand, sublime, and spiritually nourishing 1962 *Missale Romanum’s *Latin Mass, in application as normalcy in every diocese! How I wish that Catholics never had had to hear of the N.O.!

Well, the Rosary has not been taken from us, so that is wherein I shall take refuge during this ugly, truncated, and superficial liturgy!

Pax, Jerry Parker

 

[wisdomseeker]

Pro Vobis,

I suppose that I am in the right forum, indeed! I am not the only one who would wish “Happy UNbirthday” to the Novus Ordo, i.e. wish rolling things right back to the grand, sublime, and spiritually nourishing 1962 *Missale Romanum’s *Latin Mass, in application as normalcy in every diocese! How I wish that Catholics never had had to hear of the N.O.!

Well, the Rosary has not been taken from us, so that is wherein I shall take refuge during this ugly, truncated, and superficial liturgy!

Pax, Jerry Parker

It could be done if the pope said so. i bet it would enough EF priests to go everywhere.
even if we just had 3 or 4 Churches in the whole town at least they would full.

 

[vz71]

The best thing to do is just to block out its text by reciting the Rosay (Jesus Rosary or Marian Rosary), pausing to pay heed to the rite only for the Consecration. This way I can feel serenity rather than frustration at Mass.

Skip the penitential rite?
Skip the liturgy of the Word?

You are missing some very important parts of the Mass and depriving yourself.

Also, those that do the Judas shuffle also meet their “Mass obligation”, but it does not make it right.

 

[Jerry_Parker]

vs 71,

**You wrote: ** *Skip the penitential rite? Skip the liturgy of the Word? You are missing some very important parts of the Mass and depriving yourself.

Also, those that do the Judas shuffle also meet their “Mass obligation”, but it does not make it right.*​

Well, vs 71, of course I would not “skip” the penitential rite, if it were present. Alas, the priests in this diocese omit it, anyway, which has been a matter of some distress to me (since I regard the penitential prayers to be very important indeed and that it is a desecration to chuck them out, however much the priests here in Rouyn-Noranda despise penitence in making such omissions and in withholding the regular, scheduled hearing of the faithful’s confessions and (essentially as the Antinomians that they seem to be) these priests dismiss the seriousness of what does attempt to confess on the rare occasions that one can succeed in making a confession to them), so I would not be missing the penitential aspect of the Mass that even the **Novus Ordo **, as formulated, includes in some form. Of course, I would try to be attentive to the reading of God’s Word in the Scriptural lessons. Apart from these, the Novus Ordo so falls short of what our fathers in the Faith intended for the Eucharist to be, that it is better to shut all that out if it irks one so much as it does me.

As for Judas and Mass obligation, it seems to me that the priests and bishop have an obligation to say the litury, N.O. or the traditional Mass, as it was delivered to them, rather than to omit penitential prayers, to abridge it in other ways to suit themselves, and to personalise the liturgy by adding their extraneous comments (as they tend to do here). It is not just the laity who can play Judas, and it is better not to encourage the priests in their deviations, even if one passively sits there, to meet one’s Mass obligation and to commune, while the clergy “carry on” as they like! It is useless to protest to them; these priests always defend what they like to do, however much it departs from the words and rubrics of the liturgy.

Pax, Jerry Parker

 

[vz71]

Well, vs 71, of course I would not “skip” the penitential rite, if it were present. Alas, the priests in this diocese omit it, anyway, which has been a matter of some distress to me

Then it would be the priest that is failing his flock.

Have you taken this up with the priest?
His Bishop?
etc…

Fr. Corapi often tells of a old lady at a parish where the priest was conducting illicit Mass. The lady complained. First to the priest, then to the Bishop, and on up the food chain.
It ended with the priest being replaced, and the Mass being said properly.
But it also took many months.

Based on what you are writing, I would wager that the Mass and all of the parts of it are important to you.
If they are, perhaps you will begin chewing your way up the food chain until something is done.

With no one speaking out, the higher ups in the church may not even realize a problem.

 

[Jerry_Parker]

viz 71,

**You wrote: ** *Then it would be the priest that is failing his flock. Have you taken this up with the priest? His Bishop? etc…

Fr. Corapi often tells of a old lady at a parish where the priest was conducting illicit Mass. The lady complained. First to the priest, then to the Bishop, and on up the food chain.
It ended with the priest being replaced, and the Mass being said properly. But it also took many months.

Based on what you are writing, I would wager that the Mass and all of the parts of it are important to you. If they are, perhaps you will begin chewing your way up the food chain until something is done.*​

Thanks for your concern, but all of these measures are useless in my situation. The entire diocese is like this. I have tried to mention such concerns to priests, even highly placed ones, but it does no good. As an Anglophone (even though I understand and speak French quite well, albeit with a strong accent), and an old one too, in a Francophone diocese, they regard me as simply uncomprehending, old-fashioned, and irrelevant. The sole English-speaking parish is as poor as any other and it is inaccessible to me, who can walk only with pain and difficulty.

I have come to have an horror of clergymen, Catholic, Protestant, or sectarian. It is best to shun these people; they make one’s life miserable to interact with them. One can be a faithful Christian and still be anti-clerical; it is the normal state of things, and for good reasons! Priests and any other clergy tend to be more opionated than truly educated since the drastic fall in standards at seminaries, and they really are mostly ignoramuses full of their own conceits and supposed wisdom.

How can one convince a priest who, really, first needs to be converted to the Catholic faith as it is revealed in Scripture and Holy Tradition? They themselves need to be evangelised, but, by the nature of their work, they are beyond of that, having seared consciences. I try to avoid priests as much as possible. They are a plague to the Church, even though they fulfil an absolutely necessary role, however erratically. It is best to avoid these folk and just try to weave one’s faith life around them. I have my daily and other personal devotions that benefit me more than the ministrations of these priests, aside from the crucial gift of receiving Christ’s Body at their hands.

Pax, Jerry Parker

 

[mangy_dog]

"It is 40 years ago today since the New Mass of Paul VI was introduced into our parishes, writes Margery Popinstar, editor of The Capsule. We knew at the time that this liturgy was as close to perfection as humanly possible, but little did we guess what an efflorescence of art, architecture, music and worship lay ahead!

There were fears at first that the vernacular service would damage the solemnity of the Mass. How silly! Far from leading to liturgical abuses, the New Mass nurtured a koinonia that revived Catholic culture and packed our reordered churches to the rafters.

So dramatic was the growth in family Mass observance, indeed, that a new school of Catholic architecture arose to provide places of worship for these new congregations. Throughout the Western world, churches sprang up that combined Christian heritage with the thrilling simplicity of the modern school, creating a sense of the numinous that has proved as irresistible to secular visitors as to the faithful.

…]"

Damian Thompson
Telegraph.co.uk
blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/damianthompson/100018329/happy-40th-birthday-novus-ordo/

oh, it’s been that long.

 

[wisdomseeker]

viz 71,

**You wrote: ** *Then it would be the priest that is failing his flock. Have you taken this up with the priest? His Bishop? etc…

Fr. Corapi often tells of a old lady at a parish where the priest was conducting illicit Mass. The lady complained. First to the priest, then to the Bishop, and on up the food chain.
It ended with the priest being replaced, and the Mass being said properly. But it also took many months.

Based on what you are writing, I would wager that the Mass and all of the parts of it are important to you. If they are, perhaps you will begin chewing your way up the food chain until something is done.*​

Thanks for your concern, but all of these measures are useless in my situation. The entire diocese is like this. I have tried to mention such concerns to priests, even highly placed ones, but it does no good. As an Anglophone (even though I understand and speak French quite well, albeit with a strong accent), and an old one too, in a Francophone diocese, they regard me as simply uncomprehending, old-fashioned, and irrelevant. The sole English-speaking parish is as poor as any other and it is inaccessible to me, who can walk only with pain and difficulty.

I have come to have an horror of clergymen, Catholic, Protestant, or sectarian. It is best to shun these people; they make one’s life miserable to interact with them. One can be a faithful Christian and still be anti-clerical; it is the normal state of things, and for good reasons! Priests and any other clergy tend to be more opionated than truly educated since the drastic fall in standards at seminaries, and they really are mostly ignoramuses full of their own conceits and supposed wisdom.

How can one convince a priest who, really, first needs to be converted to the Catholic faith as it is revealed in Scripture and Holy Tradition? They themselves need to be evangelised, but, by the nature of their work, they are beyond of that, having seared consciences. I try to avoid priests as much as possible. They are a plague to the Church, even though they fulfil an absolutely necessary role, however erratically. It is best to avoid these folk and just try to weave one’s faith life around them. I have my daily and other personal devotions that benefit me more than the ministrations of these priests, aside from the crucial gift of receiving Christ’s Body at their hands.

Pax, Jerry Parker

you are so right. i know exactly what you are talking about. there is a passage in the Bible that says something like: the people are dying for the lack of knowledge, says St Paul. i know i have to becarefull what i say around those people in my Parish, for i know they dont have a clue what i am talking about. very few do but remain silent to avoid conflict. i for one gets in trouble all the time for being vocal in certain things.
but i realized those people and the priests dont know the Faith, they dont know the CC for one. so how can they defend. i just avoid them every way i can because it is too apseting to me. at the food pantry when the priest and the people holding hands encircle themselves to pray and sing Jesus in the morning, Jesus in the noon, Jesus in the night time… something like that and clap hands, i just hide from them.

 

[Jerry_Parker]

Wisdom Seeker,

**You wrote: ** *You are so right. I know exactly what you are talking about. There is a passage in the Bible that says something like: the people are dying for the lack of knowledge, says St Paul. I know [that] I have to becareful what I say around those people in my parish, for I know they don’t have a clue what I am talking about. [A] very few do, but [they] remain silent to avoid conflict. I for one get in trouble all the time for being vocal … [about] certain things.

But I realize those people and the priests don’t know the Faith; they don’t know the C.C. for one, so how can they defend [the Faith]? I just avoid them every way [that] I can because it is too upseting to me. At the food pantry when the priest and the people [are]holding hands [and] encircle themselves to pray and sing Jesus in the morning, Jesus in the noon, Jesus in the night time – something like that – and clap hands, I just hide from them. *​

Exactly! How well your simple yet very cogent words sum up all this folderol that constitutes the “Whoopee-Doo!” religion, all positive, oblivious of sin and harm, of these priestly fools! I feel for you, brother, in having to deal with these blind clergy and their lay followers (who know nothing of the sterner side of the Holy Faith), because of your need to depend, in your want, on their Baby Boomerite acts of condescending generosity! Who wants, among those who have an understanding of the shade, as well as of the Light of God’s word and of His ways, to deal with these fops? Their all-positive “Catholicism Light” cannot stand up to the persecution that may beset Christians; indeed, they probably will be among the ranks of those who defect to persecute the faithful!

The verse to which you refer, one so incredibly powerful, is from the prophet Amos (not St. Paul, though it surely is in the same spirit!): “‘Behold, the days come’, saith the Lord, ‘and I will send forth a famine into the land, not a famine of bread, not a thirst of water, but of hearing the word of the Lord and [they] shall not find it.’” – Amos 8:11 (Douay-Rheims-Challoner Version). Indeed, these fickle and shallow priests, never having had respect for each and every word of God, shall have nothing to which to resort when truly bad times come, except the wrong choice of reneging the shabby rags of their ersatz, worldly and humanistic faith (or having done so already already) to the ranks of the Church’s and of God’s enemies. God spare us (and mercifully cause the priests and votaries of the “new” religion, already so stale, to learn from adversity) at that time! When the time comes for their own penance, they will know nothing of it!

Pax, Jerry Parker

 

[wisdomseeker]

Wisdom Seeker,

**You wrote: ** *You are so right. I know exactly what you are talking about. There is a passage in the Bible that says something like: the people are dying for the lack of knowledge, says St Paul. I know [that] I have to becareful what I say around those people in my parish, for I know they don’t have a clue what I am talking about. [A] very few do, but [they] remain silent to avoid conflict. I for one get in trouble all the time for being vocal … [about] certain things.

But I realize those people and the priests don’t know the Faith; they don’t know the C.C. for one, so how can they defend [the Faith]? I just avoid them every way [that] I can because it is too upseting to me. At the food pantry when the priest and the people [are]holding hands [and] encircle themselves to pray and sing Jesus in the morning, Jesus in the noon, Jesus in the night time – something like that – and clap hands, I just hide from them. *​

Exactly! How well your simple yet very cogent words sum up all this folderol that constitutes the “Whoopee-Doo!” religion, all positive, oblivious of sin and harm, of these priestly fools! I feel for you, brother, in having to deal with these blind clergy and their lay followers (who know nothing of the sterner side of the Holy Faith), because of your need to depend, in your want, on their Baby Boomerite acts of condescending generosity! Who wants, among those who have an understanding of the shade, as well as of the Light of God’s word and of His ways, to deal with these fops? Their all-positive “Catholicism Light” cannot stand up to the persecution that may beset Christians; indeed, they probably will be among the ranks of those who defect to persecute the faithful!

The verse to which you refer, one so incredibly powerful, is from the prophet Amos (not St. Paul, though it surely is in the same spirit!): “‘Behold, the days come’, saith the Lord, ‘and I will send forth a famine into the land, not a famine of bread, not a thirst of water, but of hearing the word of the Lord and [they] shall not find it.’” – Amos 8:11 (Douay-Rheims-Challoner Version). Indeed, these fickle and shallow priests, never having had respect for each and every word of God, shall have nothing to which to resort when truly bad times come, except the wrong choice of reneging the shabby rags of their ersatz, worldly and humanistic faith (or having done so already already) to the ranks of the Church’s and of God’s enemies. God spare us (and mercifully cause the priests and votaries of the “new” religion, already so stale, to learn from adversity) at that time! When the time comes for their own penance, they will know nothing of it!

Pax, Jerry Parker

our consolation is that our God will never abandon His people. we must remember Israel, how the shepperds went ashtray many times but God, always in control, in due time He will judge. now, we can truly see the danger of mixing religion. it is not such a good idea. we didnt convert no one. they converted us into their beliefs. strike the shepard and the sheep will be scattered. that is what is happening in the Church today.

youtube.com/user/RealCatholicTV#p/a/u/0/IIkAvjpGSiw

 

[Jerry_Parker]

Wisdom Seeker,

**You wrote: ** * Our consolation is that our God never will abandon His people. We must remember [the example of] Israel, how the shepherds went astray many times but God, always in control, [now as then] in due time [it is He [That] will judge. Now, we can truly see the danger of mixing religion [with anything else]. It is not such a good idea. We didn’t convert … [any]one. They converted us to their beliefs. Strike the shepard and the sheep will be scattered. That is what is happening in the Church today.

youtube.com/user/RealCath…/0/IIkAvjpGSiw *​

Thanks for those words! I just barely had finished viewing the very broadcast of Real Catholic TV to which your link leads when I came across your message! Such good news, that this pope intends to restore the Mass, to restore the Latin Mass of 1962 and to clean up abuses that have beset the Novus Ordo!, a strategy on two fronts, but not the kind of division of his attention that weakens the matter. Let us hope that Benedict XVI does not let the worldly, within and outside the Church, dissuade him! May this be one shepherd, Benedict XVI, whom the world will not strike down by overwhelming him with its persecution and woes. This pope surely has a lot of our Lord’s sheep to gather, whom foolish priests, betraying their calling, have scattered. (I think that what you meant by “They converted us to their beliefs” is that the priests and bishops who have strayed from orthodoxy have persuaded many of “us” believers to follow their teachings and precepts rather than those of our Lord. If I am misunderstanding you, let me know.) Jesus did promise that His sheep would recognise and heed His voice (cf. St. John 10:4) and that He would lose none of His elect, i.e. those of His flock.

In a way, it is good, even if in a negative sort of way, that the foppish and deluded priests of the “[false] spirt of Vatican II” preach so little as they tend to do, with their potted and utterly forgettable homilies that so easily slip out of one’s mind. If these priests did preach real sermons of the length of those in pre-Vat-II days, they only would confuse people worse than they do by expounding their errors at greater length, making their doctrinal poison intrude more on the laity’s minds. As it is, their skimpy sermonettes assure that it is the reading of God’s word in the lectionary better which better and more exclusively can have its effect.

Well, in addition to carrying out the readings (themselves or by lay readers), even the black sheep among the clergy also at least bring God’s Body and Blood to His people, for them to commune with Him, God the Second Person of the Holy Trinity, however much rogue priests may prefer for us to follow them! In reading the Holy Scriptures, they unwittingly undermine their own worldly errors and schemes. It is the very word of God that convicts of sin and converts (Heb. 4:12), not the barren preachments of rogue bishops and priests who look elsewhere than to the Holy Scriptures for their authority. It is, fortunately for the faithful, those very words of God which are read in the Lectionary week by week, Sunday by Sunday!

Pax, Jerry Parker

 

[wisdomseeker]

Wisdom Seeker,

**You wrote: ** * Our consolation is that our God never will abandon His people. We must remember [the example of] Israel, how the shepherds went astray many times but God, always in control, [now as then] in due time [it is He [That] will judge. Now, we can truly see the danger of mixing religion [with anything else]. It is not such a good idea. We didn’t convert … [any]one. They converted us to their beliefs. Strike the shepard and the sheep will be scattered. That is what is happening in the Church today.

youtube.com/user/RealCath…/0/IIkAvjpGSiw*​

Thanks for those words! I just barely had finished viewing the very broadcast of Real Catholic TV to which your link leads when I came across your message! Such good news, that this pope intends to restore the Mass, to restore the Latin Mass of 1962 and to clean up abuses that have beset the Novus Ordo!, a strategy on two fronts, but not the kind of division of his attention that weakens the matter. Let us hope that Benedict XVI does not let the worldly, within and outside the Church, dissuade him! May this be one shepherd, Benedict XVI, whom the world will not strike down by overwhelming him with its persecution and woes. This pope surely has a lot of our Lord’s sheep to gather, whom foolish priests, betraying their calling, have scattered. (I think that what you meant by “They converted us to their beliefs” is that the priests and bishops who have strayed from orthodoxy have persuaded many of “us” believers to follow their teachings and precepts rather than those of our Lord. If I am misunderstanding you, let me know.) Jesus did promise that His sheep would recognise and heed His voice (cf. St. John 10:4) and that He would lose none of His elect, i.e. those of His flock.

In a way, it is good, even if in a negative sort of way, that the foppish and deluded priests of the “[false] spirt of Vatican II” preach so little as they tend to do, with their potted and utterly forgettable homilies that so easily slip out of one’s mind. If these priests did preach real sermons of the length of those in pre-Vat-II days, they only would confuse people worse than they do by expounding their errors at greater length, making their doctrinal poison intrude more on the laity’s minds. As it is, their skimpy sermonettes assure that it is the reading of God’s word in the lectionary better which better and more exclusively can have its effect.

Well, in addition to carrying out the readings (themselves or by lay readers), even the black sheep among the clergy also at least bring God’s Body and Blood to His people, for them to commune with Him, God the Second Person of the Holy Trinity, however much rogue priests may prefer for us to follow them! In reading the Holy Scriptures, they unwittingly undermine their own worldly errors and schemes. It is the very word of God that convicts of sin and converts (Heb. 4:12), not the barren preachments of rogue bishops and priests who look elsewhere than to the Holy Scriptures for their authority. It is, fortunately for the faithful, those very words of God which are read in the Lectionary week by week, Sunday by Sunday!

Pax, Jerry Parker

oh no, i am talking about the ecumaniacs who decided to change the Mass to look more like protestants beliefs. therefore, converting many to protestant beliefs instead of converting them into the True Faith. obviously those were the false prophets who lead many ashtray. the mixing of the Faith proved to be disastrous to the Church.

God bless.

 

[SpiritusSanctus]

oh no, i am talking about the ecumaniacs who decided to change the Mass to look more like protestants beliefs. therefore, converting many to protestant beliefs instead of converting them into the True Faith. obviously those were the false prophets who lead many ashtray. the mixing of the Faith proved to be disastrous to the Church.

God bless.

Correct! Nice post.

 

[Jerry_Parker]

Wisdom Seeker,

**You wrote: ** Oh no, I am talking about the ecumaniacs who decided to change the Mass to look more like Protestants beliefs [and worship]. therefore, converting many to Protestant beliefs instead of converting them into the True Faith. Obviously those were the false prophets who lead many astray. The mixing of the Faith proved to be disastrous to the Church.​

Thanks for the clarification of what you meant, although both concepts are valid in relation to what these priestlings are scheming. Having exited Protestantism recently, back to Rome, I appreciate just how bad this love of all things Protestant and, ultimately, rationalist really is. It is no wonder that there is so much confusion in the Church, emulating Protestants who have no internal doctrinal order, ultimately, even within their own ranks (despite some resorts to Confessions of Faith, since individuals always are making their own resorts to and interpretations of the Bible), and even less so between their squabbling denominations and sects. I do not appreciate such efforts one bit! A pox on them!

Pax, Jerry Parker