Happy Birthday, Mr. Darwin: Growing Majority of Americans Support Teaching Both Sides of Evolution Debate

  • Thread starter Thread starter buffalo
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Based on what I’ve read, it seems to me that if anything, the Vatican is trying to distance itself from 6 day creationism, which is NOT ID. ID has been around for a long time (one of Thomas Aquinas’ arguments for the existence of God was the “argument from design.”)

Some people on the forums (and some newspaper editors) don’t understand that ID is NOT 6 day creationism. Some people on the forums do understand that they are not the same, but perpetuate the lie anyhow (I’m not talking about you here). I just want you to understand that there is a difference.
Hi Ricmat,

I could see that journalists writing the articles could be confusing the isues. Do you have anything more directly from the Vatican that supports ID? Frankly, I can’t see how the Church can be so accepting of the science here and understand why many Catholics aren’t accepting evolution (though this appears to be a uniquely American phenomenon). I don’t think evolution is compatible with theism at all.

Best,
Leela
 
Hi Ricmat,

I could see that journalists writing the articles could be confusing the isues. Do you have anything more directly from the Vatican that supports ID? Frankly, I can’t see how the Church can be so accepting of the science here and understand why many Catholics aren’t accepting evolution (though this appears to be a uniquely American phenomenon). I don’t think evolution is compatible with theism at all.

Best,
Leela
Catholics have always believed in the intelligibility of the universe. That is why they studied it and founded the scientific method, universities, etc… Most of the early scientists were Catholics.

Do you know who opposed them? Pagans. Pagans believed in the cyclic universe.
 
Catholics have always believed in the intelligibility of the universe. That is why they studied it and founded the scientific method, universities, etc… Most of the early scientists were Catholics.
Apart from the Indian, Chinese and Islamic ones.

Alec
 
Hi Ricmat,

I could see that journalists writing the articles could be confusing the isues. Do you have anything more directly from the Vatican that supports ID?
Nothing handy except a copy of Chance or Purpose by Cardinal Schoenborn.
Frankly, I can’t see how the Church can be so accepting of the science here and understand why many Catholics aren’t accepting evolution (though this appears to be a uniquely American phenomenon).
Generally the church doesn’t speak to the underlying mechanism of evolution, but acknowledges that “there’s some evidence” that evolution is correct. It only becomes a matter of faith (which the Church DOES take an interest in) when the theory is used to negate a role for God, or is used to attempt to disprove the existence of God.

There are several articles out lately regarding a study in the UK which show a similar disbelief in evolution.

I googled and found this article, but I’ve seen others as well.
 
I read the link but it didn’t give many details. Do you have the list of these 100 mainstream scientific articles handy?

And do you happen to have any peer reviewed scientific articles published in mainstream journals that actively support your brand of creationism?
Sorry. Academia will ostracize you if any attempt is made to possibly disagree with evolution. Just ask all of the professors who have lost their jobs. Watch Expelled with Ben Stein.
 
Sorry. Academia will ostracize you if any attempt is made to possibly disagree with evolution. Just ask all of the professors who have lost their jobs. Watch Expelled with Ben Stein.
Do you have any evidence to support this extraordinary claim?
 
Dr. Meyer presented the Texas State Board of Education with four thick binders full of over 100 mainstream scientific articles that express scientific challenges to key aspects of neo-Darwinian evolutionary theory, especially challenging the arguments used to support it in biology textbooks

I imagine it’s not hard to find scientific challenges to a theory. It’s a scientist’s job to question, challenge, probe, and otherwise test theoretical frameworks. What has Stephen Meyer actually accomplished in handing over four thick binders?​
 
Why isn’t it?
As an atheist I haven’t given it a whole lot of thought, but here goes: Evolutionary theory explains the appearance of design and variation in nature through natural processes with no end in mind. The only teology is a migration away from the mechanistic rigidity of physical laws rather than a teology toward the creation of intelligent lifeforms like ourselves.

As I understand the theory, if we could reboot the process, we would get different results. This sounds like a problem for any religion that sees humanity as created in the image of God since evolution describes a process where no particular outcomes were determined at the beginning.

If you agree with my interpretation of evolution, how do you reconcile Catholicism and the lack of a priveledged place for mankind in the creation process?

Best,
Leela
 
I imagine it’s not hard to find scientific challenges to a theory. It’s a scientist’s job to question, challenge, probe, and otherwise test theoretical frameworks. What has Stephen Meyer actually accomplished in handing over four thick binders?
He got himself named to a board that will review Texas science standards.

Peace

Tim
 
As I understand the theory, if we could reboot the process, we would get different results. This sounds like a problem for any religion that sees humanity as created in the image of God since evolution describes a process where no particular outcomes were determined at the beginning. Best,
Leela
Leela, it’s only a problem if we think that the “image of God” is necessarily that of a hairless bipedal primate. If “imago Dei” refers to moral consciousness and spiritual awareness, those seem to be qualities that could be evolutionarily selected for.

So if we “rebooted the process” we might end up with a moral and spiritual being on a platform other than mammalian. If the Chicxulub bollide had not impacted the earth, the dominant species carrying the “imago Dei” might be an endothermic, bipedal reptile with opposable digits, a large brain, and the capability of speech…

StAnastasia
 
As I understand the theory, if we could reboot the process, we would get different results. This sounds like a problem for any religion that sees humanity as created in the image of God since evolution describes a process where no particular outcomes were determined at the beginning.

If you agree with my interpretation of evolution, how do you reconcile Catholicism and the lack of a priveledged place for mankind in the creation process?

Best,
Leela
Indeed, if we somehow had the capability to reboot the process the results would be wildly different - and not just some variation in what higher forms of life would be. The physical constants which defined how the entire universe unfolded were incredibly “fine tuned”, meaning they are extremely precise with regard to both absolute value, and with regard to each other at the instant of the big bang. The values are designed such that they work together to bring about a universe capable of supporting life. The values involved are so precise, that they are almost beyond our ability to conceive of much less actually control in some sort of “reboot experiment.” The values could not have come about accidentally, or the universe would not exist in any form, much less this “life friendly” form.

And all this even before evolution enters the picture!

The Church indeed teaches that the universe was created for mankind. A temple in which to stand in awe of God. A temple to tend and care for.

Exactly how/if God interacts with his creation after evolution got started is a hot topic on these threads (perhaps you’ve noticed). But Catholics believe that God was directly involved in the creation of man. And most of us believe that he continues to interact with his creation.
 
Generally the church doesn’t speak to the underlying mechanism of evolution, but acknowledges that “there’s some evidence” that evolution is correct. It only becomes a matter of faith (which the Church DOES take an interest in) when the theory is used to negate a role for God, or is used to attempt to disprove the existence of God.
What do you make of the reports that the Vatican decided not to include ID as a competing scientific theory in its conference and only views it as a cultural phenomenon (like Paris Hilton)?

"Organisers of the event, hosted by Rome’s Pontifical Gregorian University on 3 to 7 March, said at a press conference last September to announce the event that supporters of creationism and its alter-ego, intelligent design (ID), would not be invited. Jesuit Father Marc Leclerc of the Gregorian University said at the time that arguments “that cannot be critically defined as being science or philosophy or theology did not seem feasible to include in a dialogue at this level”. "
 
What do you make of the reports that the Vatican decided not to include ID as a competing scientific theory in its conference and only views it as a cultural phenomenon (like Paris Hilton)?
I suspect that there will be an ID conference sponsored by the Vatican some day. (Note: not referring to the 6 day creationism thing here).
 
Leela, it’s only a problem if we think that the “image of God” is necessarily that of a hairless bipedal primate. If “imago Dei” refers to moral consciousness and spiritual awareness, those seem to be qualities that could be evolutionarily selected for.

So if we “rebooted the process” we might end up with a moral and spiritual being on a platform other than mammalian. If the Chicxulub bollide had not impacted the earth, the dominant species carrying the “imago Dei” might be an endothermic, bipedal reptile with opposable digits, a large brain, and the capability of speech…
Hi StAnastasia,

Makes sense to me. I guess you’d also be willing to imagine that life is possible on other planets, too? Many people see such ideas as challenges to their faith.

People like to think that the universe is unfolding according to a particular plan that God had in mind from the moment of creation. Evolution undercuts this idea.

Best,
Leela
 
Hi StAnastasia,

Makes sense to me. I guess you’d also be willing to imagine that life is possible on other planets, too? Many people see such ideas as challenges to their faith.

People like to think that the universe is unfolding according to a particular plan that God had in mind from the moment of creation. Evolution undercuts this idea.

Best,
Leela
Whoah - if you can believe that life exists on another planet you can also believe it was designed and brought here.
 
I’m not quite clear as to the intent of the origianl post. The title of the article posits that there are only two “sides” to such a debate. That frames the picture of evolutionary theory in what I can only interpret as “Creationism vs Mechanism.” In this regard, I think that the contribution of the tract from William James by Leela is of great imporatance.* Personally, I have never accepted that creationism and evolutionism are necessarily mutually exclusive, and see the debate as artificial.

I also consider that E&C is fundamentaly (lol!) a christianist debate, not inclusive of at least one viewpoint that makes the whole question irrelavant, whether one agrees with that interpretation or not. In fact, I would guess that most arguments it the form “it’s ether A or X” are not inclusive of whole ranges of relavant factors. This also goes with the very strong contention that our N-V-O sentence structure, with its current heavy emphasis on the noun rather than the verb, is misrepresentative of how things actually work.

As to the article linked to in the OP, it is limited in its scope as to interpretation, particularly in a direction that might support ID or creationism. The only thing it supports in its form and content is that people are willing to continue examining the issue from a wider perspective, and certainly not necessarily from a theological point of view. In other words, as I see it, the article shows that the respondees to the poll are open to thinking, and not set in a particular view, and certainly have not necessarily abandoned Darwinism as a working hypothesis. And remember, it is easy to get a desired answer by posing a question in a particular way. There is a whole disciplin surrounding that dynamic which is freely used by anyone wishing to make a point consistent with their views That can happen even with the best of intentions, so I am not claiming deliberate manipulation on the part of the article, though it might be thus construed.

As a side note, I was visiting my very devotionally oriented Catholic mother at the care facility she is in at the moment. She had been watching a progam on the diversity of life forms on the planet. It showed the bacteria living miles beneath the surface, in acid pools in Yellowstone, and around lightless thermal vents under the sea. It showed the vast array of animals currently inhabiting the surface, many of which were even recent discoveries. There was some speculation as to life on other planets, with reference to the some 300 exoplanets we now know of.

She said somthing that surprised me, knowing her strict Catholic views. She said “I think there must be life out there. I can’t imagine Picasso painting just one painting. He was prolific. Is God any less creative or abundant in His work?” I thought of the deep fiield photos from the Hubble telescope, remembering that our own galaxy is some 100,000 light years across. That is about 52.5 billion times the distance from here to our Sun. I had to wonder if she is right. What if “Life” is a force that is inherent in the questionable divison we make between spirit and matter? What if in our tendency to believe that the small contents of our intellect equalls the total Reality of being, we are trying to stuff the imessurable infinity of the Creator into our concepts so we can control Him as a factor in our argumentations?

I remember someone who said, as a measure of our inability to see the whole picture at once, “This is always already the ‘other world.’” To me that would include the “rebooting” idea above with its alternative result. Maybe the movie Enemy Mine has more going for it than we might believe. Maybe we can learn somthing, and be less arrogant before our God, or at the very least, before our fellow folks. In other words, belive or not in God, Jesus, or whatever you wish or don’t wish, but allow that even our best efforts are inadequate to measure the immensity of what IS.

*It could be wise for folks who might dismiss that article to read it at least seven times, each time with due deliberate attention to meaning. I give as examples to support this advice the Jesuit who read the transcription of a metaphysical lecture seven times before he realized that he was not only unaware of its actual intent from the begining, but had been superimposing his own view onto it and had thus blinded himself. I also had a friend who was told repeatedly to read a short book, because he was missing the point. He read it 27 time before he could see though his own prejudice as to its contents. Both readers in the above example were happy with the end result of seeing through their own limitaitons of understanding.
 
Hi StAnastasia, Makes sense to me. I guess you’d also be willing to imagine that life is possible on other planets, too? Many people see such ideas as challenges to their faith. People like to think that the universe is unfolding according to a particular plan that God had in mind from the moment of creation. Evolution undercuts this idea.Best,Leela
Leela, of course I imagine that life has evolved countless times throughout the universe on geologically. thermally, and chemically suitable planets. It’s not a challenge to my Catholic faith at all to suppose that God has created an evolving universe with the possibility of life evolving many times. It would never occur to me that our one planet and star – one of a hundred billion stars in one of possibly three hundred billion galaxies – is either the center of the universe or the sole focus of God’s incarnational attention and salvific intention.

StAnastasia
 
Leela, of course I imagine that life has evolved countless times throughout the universe on geologically. thermally, and chemically suitable planets. It’s not a challenge to my Catholic faith at all to suppose that God has created an evolving universe with the possibility of life evolving many times. It would never occur to me that our one planet and star – one of a hundred billion stars in one of possibly three hundred billion galaxies – is either the center of the universe or the sole focus of God’s incarnational attention and salvific intention.

StAnastasia
Although I admit the possibility that life evolved on other planets (and I think the Church has even considered the idea without rejecting it), I suggest that you read “The Privileged Planet”. It is heavy on science, but still understandable to non-scientists. Borrow it from the library and if you find it too intimidating then you haven’t lost any money 🙂

The myth that there must be billions (or even many) planets suitable for life is examined in great detail and doesn’t come out well in the wash.

Planet Earth is very very special, and may actually be life-friendly unique in all of creation.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top