Happy Birthday, Mr. Darwin: Growing Majority of Americans Support Teaching Both Sides of Evolution Debate

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In other words, perhaps we are all made of stardust.
We are. The heavy elements are only made in the explosions of supernovae. These are blasted off into space, where the may cause clouds of hydrogen to collapse and make new stars. The Hubble Telescope has images of that process happening.

Those new stars contain the remnants of the supernova that initiated their formation, and planets form with the same elements. Our sun is one such star, and we are indeed made of stardust.
 
In the Beginning, God…
No, you are wrong here. This does not describe the origin of life. Have a look at Psalm 42:2 “My soul thirsts for God, for the living God. When shall I come and behold the face of God?” [emphasis added]. You cannot explain the origin of life by starting with something that is already alive.

What is the creationist explanation for the origin of life?
How did the first life form arise?
Chemistry. Much of abiogenesis is chemistry. Have a google for “liposome” for just one example.
What is the mechanism for that life form arising?
We are still working on it. However, the scientific explanation even now has more detail than the creationist explanation.

rossum
 
Yes, the explanation you refer to above is the standard one used in physics. It is a model of the underlying reality which is useful for making predictions.

.
Hello Ricmat

I would not intentionally put you on the spot but so far you probably have come closest to the difference between determining a cause as opposed to the consequences arising from some dynamic.For instance,nobody knows why the Earth turns in its daily rotation or orbits the central Sun but we experience the consequences of those motions in their barest form as day/night cycle and seasonal variations in daylight/darkness.

The ‘predictive’ part of Newton’s agenda requires attention because it comes directly from the ‘predictive’ Ra/Dec framework which was newly created by John Flamsteed as clocks and telescopes began to appear -

“With the invention of the telescope, it became possible for astronomers to observe celestial objects in greater detail, provided that the telescope could be kept pointed at the object for a period of time. The easiest way to do that is to use an equatorial mount for the telescope, which allows the telescope to rotate at the same rate as the earth. As the equatorial mount became widely adopted for observation, the equatorial coordinate system, which includes right ascension, was adopted at the same time for simplicity. The first star catalog to use right ascension and declination was John Flamsteed’s Historia Coelestis Britannica (1712, 1725).”

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_ascension

Forgive me for ‘shouting’ as I dislike it ,but it is of such great importance that I need to stress the difference.

The geocentric and heliocentric astronomers had made decisions regarding solar system structure by discriminating planetary motions AGAINST the stellar background with Copernicus resolving the apparent backward motion of the planets by showing that the Earth’s own orbital motion accounts for it -

apod.nasa.gov/apod/image/0112/JuSa2000_tezel.gif

The key to organising the arrangement of planets around the central Sun is based on the length of time each planet returns to the same spot against the stellar background .The ‘periodic times’ argument is central to the heliocentric idea of switching the geocentric proposal of the Sun between Venus and Mars with the Earth’s orbital motion -

"Of all things visible, the highest is the heaven of the fixed stars.
This, I see, is doubted by nobody. But the ancient philosophers wanted to arrange the planets in accordance with the duration of the revolutions. Their principle assumes that of objects moving equally fast, those farther away seem to travel more slowly, as is proved in Euclid’s Optics. The highest planet is Saturn, which completes the biggest circuit in the longest time. Below it is Jupiter, followed by Mars.

With regard to Venus and Mercury, however, differences of opinion are found. For, these planets do not pass through every elongation from the sun, as the other planets do. Hence Venus and Mercury are located above the sun by some authorities, like Plato’s Timaeus [38 D], but below the sun by others, like Ptolemy [Syntaxis, IX, 1] and many of the modems. Al-Bitruji places Venus above the sun, and Mercury below it. " Copernicus

webexhibits.org/calendars/year-text-Copernicus.html

Briefly,Flamsteed’s Ra/Dec ‘predictive’ framework has the planets moving WITH the stellar background ,great for an observational convenience like telescopes but fundamentally a 365/366 calendar creation.In Flamsteed’s scheme,which Newton built on as ‘predictive’, the planets are like ornaments on a rotating Christmas tree and whereas Flamsteed may have convinced himself he was working off an annual orbital cycle of 365 days 5 hours 49 minutes,his scheme shows the horror of equable 365/366 days of the calendar system.

For whatever reasons that I cannot comprehend,mention Newton and everybody today feels compelled to shout ‘genius’,brilliant this or that but in fact Newton was busy distorting astronomical insights to get planetary motions to fit into his terrestial ballistics agenda.He shows no indication that he understands astonomical timekeeping principles nor that Flamsteed made a shocking basic error.

At the end of the 19th century,some strong individuals had enough of Isaac yet could not figure out how he was distorting timekeeping and heliocentric principles -

“This absolute time can be measured by comparison with no motion; it has therefore neither a practical nor a scientific value; and no one is justified in saying that he knows aught about it. It is an idle metaphysical conception.”
Mach, Analyse der Empfindungen, 6th ed.

The thing about it that absolute/relative time as Newton has it represents the difference between unequal natural noon and 24 hour clock noon which in turn was the basis for daily rotation in 24 hours through 360 degrees -

“Absolute time, in astronomy, is distinguished from relative, by the equation or correlation of the vulgar time. For the natural days are truly unequal, though they are commonly considered as equal and used for a measure of time;” Principia

I have urged some particpants to go back and look at how Copernicus reasoned that the Earth has an orbital motion by resolving retrogrades and how the 24 hour day is created from unequal natural noon and applied to the daily cycle as a 24 hour/360 degrees constant as a means to find their way out of the labyrinth that Newton created .

The ‘laws of motion’ otherwise known as the ’ Universal theory of gravitation’ is a bright shining lie that conceals much and reveals nothing worthwhile,that is not an opinion but a technical and astronomical certainty.

So,who wishes to work through this in a 21st century setting ?.
 
All mutations increase information in a population. It is one of the cornerstones of population genetics. Would you like to see the numbers?

No one who knows anything about information thinks that it rules out evolution.
DNA is a code.
 
Sorry…as usual I am late to this thread.

The following sentence from Orogeny (Tim) provokes me to participate, anyway.
So far, there is no evidence that I know of that would invalidate the theory
Darwin´s theory, of course…

For a “scientific” mind, this is not a strong argument. If you defend the validity of a theory it is your responsability to prove it.

If you suddenly pretend that there is human life in Jupiter, you have to prove it. I don´t have to prove the invalidity of your theory. It shall remain a unproved theory until you produce the
evidence that supports it.

Best regards

Eduardo (I welcome any correction of my English; it´s not my mother tongue)
 
Sorry…as usual I am late to this thread.

The following sentence from Orogeny (Tim) provokes me to participate, anyway.

Darwin´s theory, of course…

For a “scientific” mind, this is not a strong argument. If you defend the validity of a theory it is your responsability to prove it.

If you suddenly pretend that there is human life in Jupiter, you have to prove it. I don´t have to prove the invalidity of your theory. It shall remain a unproved theory until you produce the
evidence that supports it.
This isn’t how scientific hypotheses work. They are never proven to be true. They can be validated by generating data consistent with the hypothesis and proven false by generating data that is inconsistent with the hypothesis. But a hypothesis is only ever held provisionally rather than dogmatically.

There is much data consistent with Darwinian evolution that validates the theory.

The problem with ID as a scientific theory is that it tells us nothing scientifically interesting about the universe, since regardless of what we observe about the universe, the data can be said to be consistent with design. ID does not guide scientific inquiry in any way. For example, scientists can’t learn how to cure any deseases or come to any better understanding of how biological organisms function by making the design hypothesis. (It’s nice of scientists to let Creationist use the medicines they developed based on evolutionary theory.)

ID is not a scientific hypothesis because its proponents have not offered any way that it could be falsified. In other words, they need to say that if the universe were different than what it is in some way, design would cease to be true. But no matter how different we imagine the universe to be, all our data would still be consistent with design. So ID doesn’t say anything about our actual universe because what it tells us would be true about any imaginable universe.

Best,
Leela
 
Quote: from Post 370
EXCELLENT article. This is where the rubber meets the road - INFORMATION!!!

Without information, there is no creation. Evolution theory cannot account for the massive accumulation of information in the genome.
Dear Barbarian,

Which excellent article are you referring to?
All mutations increase information in a population. It is one of the cornerstones of population genetics. Would you like to see the numbers?

No one who knows anything about information thinks that it rules out evolution.
Pardon, please. It looks like there is a contradiction between the two above quotes. What am I missing?

Evolution theory cannot account for the massive accumulation of information in the genome.

vs.? No one who knows anything about information thinks that it rules out evolution.

Sure, I would like to see the numbers you mentioned. Numbers are key to the way I evaluate.

Blessings,
granny

The purpose of Lent reaches out to all humanity.
 
Dear Barbarian,

Which excellent article are you referring to?
PEPCIS (post #355) was referring to the article in reggieM’s earlier post.
Pardon, please. It looks like there is a contradiction between the two above quotes. What am I missing?
The contradiction is between PEPCIS and The Barbarian.
Sure, I would like to see the numbers you mentioned. Numbers are key to the way I evaluate.
Correct. Evolution can increase both Shannon information and Kolmogorov information in genomes. I have not seen creationists propose any alternative numerical measure of the amount of information in a genome.

From the point of view of information the process of random mutation and natural selection can be viewed as a way to copy information from the environment into genomes, hence increasing the amount of information in the genomes. Information such as “white things are difficult to see in snow” is copied into the genomes of animals living in snowy environments so they have white fur.

rossum
 
Just to let people know, I have decided to spare my sanity and blocked PEPCIS.

If you are unclear how he is wrong on… pretty much everything… and you would like to know why and how. Let me know. I will respond.
That is so sad. Run into opposition, and can’t take the heat. I agree. It’s best to stay out of the kitchen.
 
I’m going to be taking a break from CAF for the next 40 days.
Wishing everyone a blessed Lent and I will see you again in Eastertide!
I hope you enjoy your respite. I look forward to your return.
 
"PEPCIS:
…just because you can’t imagine a feasible falsification does not mean that there is no means of falsifying the theory of design.
Agreed. It is impossible to prove a such a negative, but the problem for one arguing that design is a scientific theory is that the scientist who makes such a claim has the obligation to justify that her hypothesis is a valid scientific hypothesis by explaining how her hypothesis could be falsified. In other words, until you say how your hypothesis could be falsified, it’s not really a scientific hypothesis yet.
I certainly understand your objections, but I wonder if this objection would be just as thoroughly forceful against a theistic evolutionist (or old-earth creationist), as it would against a young-earth creationist or ID proponent?

But really, this argument is not considered by ID’ers to be something that is worthy of any concern, because in spite of your claims, there have been many and varied SCIENTIFIC arguments brought to bear against ID in an attempt to discredit it (falsify it). Russell Doolittle and Kenneth Miller both wrote papers on this exact subject.

These evolutionary proponents believe that irreducibly complex biochemical systems can be produced by natural selection, thereby falsifying ID.

So, if you are correct that ID is unfalsifiable, then I would expect that I should not hear any scientific objections from you whenever I put forth scientific explanations for ID. 😉
PEPCIS said:
I believe that I saw in an earlier post a reference to your ideology as being atheistic - please correct me if I am wrong. But, let’s kill two birds with one stone.
The first bird is that there is no such thing as an atheist. The second bird is that in order to falsify the notion that the universe was designed would require absolute, complete knowledge
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Leela:
I’ll let this one go because it is off topic, and I’d rather that you didn’t write off my arguments without engaging them as being typical atheist copouts, anyway, as you began to do in your first sentence above.

When discussing Darwin’s theory, it’s interesting that evolutionists believe it is ok to deride and discount creationary concepts because they originate from the Bible, or are otherwise influenced, but it is suddenly “off topic” when you dare to question their philosophical biases. Interesting… 😉
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Leela:
Thank goodness I’ve never claimed that there is no God.
True. But it is somewhat worthy to note that you sign off with a url for an atheist’s web site. 😛
PEPCIS said:
The second bird gets whacked by the same stone because we can suddenly realize that if we had all the knowledge in the universe, our intelligence would be able to easily design a falsification of the theory of design.
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Leela:
That may be fine for any nonscientist who prefers to think of the universe as designed by God to be the way it is, but as I explained above, it just doesn’t fly as justification for the validity of design as a scientific hypothesis.

That’s because your ideological bias prevents you from engaging the theory forthrightly, and forming a falsification for the theory to test it.
 
I certainly understand your objections, but I wonder if this objection would be just as thoroughly forceful against a theistic evolutionist (or old-earth creationist), as it would against a young-earth creationist or ID proponent?
I don’t know what you mean.
But really, this argument is not considered by ID’ers to be something that is worthy of any concern, because in spite of your claims, there have been many and varied SCIENTIFIC arguments brought to bear against ID in an attempt to discredit it (falsify it). Russell Doolittle and Kenneth Miller both wrote papers on this exact subject.
The question in this thread is about whether ID should be taught in school science classes. If it is not a valid scientific theory, then it follows that it shoudl not. Do you disagree?
These evolutionary proponents believe that irreducibly complex biochemical systems can be produced by natural selection, thereby falsifying ID.

So, if you are correct that ID is unfalsifiable, then I would expect that I should not hear any scientific objections from you whenever I put forth scientific explanations for ID. 😉
There is nothing wrong with raising challenges to evolutionary theory, but IDers do not actually have a competing scientific hypothesis. They offer theology instead.
When discussing Darwin’s theory, it’s interesting that evolutionists believe it is ok to deride and discount creationary concepts because they originate from the Bible, or are otherwise influenced, but it is suddenly “off topic” when you dare to question their philosophical biases. Interesting… 😉

True. But it is somewhat worthy to note that you sign off with a url for an atheist’s web site. 😛
I don’t believe in any gods, PEPSIS. It you’d like to try to convince me that I actually do, then please start a different thread and I’ll join you there.
That’s because your ideological bias prevents you from engaging the theory forthrightly, and forming a falsification for the theory to test it.
Again, it is not up to me to explain how this hypothesis can be falsified. If a scientist proposes ID as a scientific hypothesis, if she wants others to accept it as a valid scientific hypothesis, that scientist is expected to explain how it could be falsified. No one has ever done that, so it is not a scientific hypothesis any more than it would be for me to claim that I can turn invisible, but it only work when no one is looking and if there are no cameras around. I could never be proven wrong, but there is no reason for anyone to take my claim seriously.

Best,
Leela
 
"PEPCIS:
EXCELLENT article. This is where the rubber meets the road - INFORMATION!!!
Without information, there is no creation. Evolution theory cannot account for the massive accumulation of information in the genome.
All mutations increase information in a population. It is one of the cornerstones of population genetics. Would you like to see the numbers?

No one who knows anything about information thinks that it rules out evolution.
LOL Certainly not. Did you think that I thought that all of a sudden all the evolutionists would drop their guns and surrender just because of this little thing called “information”?

But, to put matters into their proper perspective, which you have failed to do, an increase in data is not the equivalent of an increase in information.

For example, let’s say that I want to measure information by the number of bits of data that make up a string of information. I might say that the previous sentence string makes up 125 bits of information.

If3 I then count the amount 1of information in this se6ntence as saying that there5 are 175 bits of information, should I include the insertions of uneeded numbers in my count?

Evolutionists often make the mistake of attempting to tackle the issue of information by attributing a strictly numerical count, believing in evolution so strongly that their belief includes the faith that evolution can create information by mutational processes.

But just as the insertion of those numbers did not increase the information of the sentence, an insertion into the DNA structure of any species is not an increase in information for that species. In fact, the insertions create more confusion and degrade the quality of the information.
 
"PEPCIS:
Micro evolution is when bacterial populations evolve to be resistant to a certain antibiotic. Macro evolution is when that bacteria becomes a different species.
Speciation is well-documented.
Well, it would be better to state that evolutionists have developed a means of defining speciation so liberally that evolutionists are not deprived of their faith, and so that no true believer in evolution should ever have to worry.
Barbarian:
Even most creationists now admit the evolution of new species, genera, and even families.
Really? Who are “most creationists?”
 
"PEPCIS:
In the Beginning, God…
No, you are wrong here. This does not describe the origin of life. Have a look at Psalm 42:2 "My soul thirsts for God, for the living
God. When shall I come and behold the face of God?" [emphasis added]. You cannot explain the origin of life by starting with something that is already alive.
Well, I think that’s a bit creative on your part (no pun intended). I don’t believe that God has “life” that can be taken from Him. That God is the “living God” is just a euphemism for His existence, as opposed to those other so-called DEAD gods made of stone and wood.
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rossum:
What is the creationist explanation for the origin of life?
[SIGN]For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is. . . (Ex.20:11)[/SIGN]

Why is that so hard to accept? You are Catholic, correct?
PEPCIS said:
How did the first life form arise?
40.png
rossum:
Chemistry. Much of abiogenesis is chemistry. Have a google for “liposome” for just one example.

You have GREAT faith, but not in the Bible. :eek:
PEPCIS said:
What is the mechanism for that life form arising?
40.png
rossum:
We are still working on it. However, the scientific explanation even now has more detail than the creationist explanation.

Would that be the explanation that I asked for and you couldn’t give?? 😛
 
ID does not guide scientific inquiry in any way. For example, scientists can’t learn how to cure any deseases or come to any better understanding of how biological organisms function by making the design hypothesis. (It’s nice of scientists to let Creationist use the medicines they developed based on evolutionary theory.)
I just love that canard. The old lie that only evolutionary theory could ever hope to develop any medicines. Nearly all of the 16th through 18th century great minds and scientists were universally Christian in their beliefs, and they developed scientific methods, cures, and many other incredible contributions – all on the Biblical worldview.
 
"granny:
Sure, I would like to see the numbers you mentioned. Numbers are key to the way I evaluate.
Correct. Evolution can increase both Shannon information and Kolmogorov information in genomes. I have not seen creationists propose any alternative numerical measure of the amount of information in a genome.
That’s because evolutionists cannot propose anything that creationists could then propose an alternative to! LOL

Shannon/Kolmogorov information is not a term which conforms to the nomenclature of biology, but one that deals strictly with communication. Nice try.
 
We are. The heavy elements are only made in the explosions of supernovae. These are blasted off into space, where the may cause clouds of hydrogen to collapse and make new stars. The Hubble Telescope has images of that process happening.

Those new stars contain the remnants of the supernova that initiated their formation, and planets form with the same elements. Our sun is one such star, and we are indeed made of stardust.
Hi The Barbarian, 🙂

Are you one of our primitive ancestors? 😃

I attended a lecture on evolution recently. It was fascinating.

The lecturer (Catholic priest) stated that we are all made of stardust or to put it in another way; we can say that we are thermo-nuclear waste.

I prefer stardust myself. 😉

Perhaps God let us evolve from mutations of life forms or perhaps He reached down, after the earth was created through evolution and ready for human habitation, and then He physically created Adam from the “dust” in an instant.

It really does not matter because we do know that God did step in, whether it was at the endpoint of the evolutionary process which culminated in Man or else at the point of Adam’s “instant” creation; in order for Him to give Adam an immortal soul; so Adam is the first creation in the “new” species of Mankind.

The two Genesis accounts of Creation differ slightly but noticeably. These accounts are stories to show us that God is our loving Father who cares for us and He expects us to obey Him if we desire to live with Him in eternity.

Pax,
SHW
 
"PEPCIS:
…just because you can’t imagine a feasible falsification does not mean that there is no means of falsifying the theory of design.
40.png
Leela:
Agreed. It is impossible to prove a such a negative, but the problem for one arguing that design is a scientific theory is that the scientist who makes such a claim has the obligation to justify that her hypothesis is a valid scientific hypothesis by explaining how her hypothesis could be falsified. In other words, until you say how your hypothesis could be falsified, it’s not really a scientific hypothesis yet.
40.png
PEPCIS:
I certainly understand your objections, but I wonder if this objection would be just as thoroughly forceful against a theistic evolutionist (or old-earth creationist), as it would against a young-earth creationist or ID proponent?
I don’t know what you mean.
What I mean is that your objection is based upon a premise that there is no God. It seems to be aimed at young-earth creationists. I just wonder if you would be just as vocal against old-earth creationists as you are against young-earth creationists. Just wondering…
 
"PEPCIS:
But really, this argument is not considered by ID’ers to be something that is worthy of any concern, because in spite of your claims, there have been many and varied SCIENTIFIC arguments brought to bear against ID in an attempt to discredit it (falsify it). Russell Doolittle and Kenneth Miller both wrote papers on this exact subject
The question in this thread is about whether ID should be taught in school science classes. If it is not a valid scientific theory, then it follows that it shoudl not. Do you disagree?
Thanks for your opinion. My opinion is that it is a valid theory, and that it SHOULD be taught exclusively.
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Leela:
I don’t believe in any gods, PEPSIS. It you’d like to try to convince me that I actually do, then please start a different thread and I’ll join you there.
The only way that ANY person could make such a claim is if they had complete knowledge in the universe. Otherwise, yours is a belief. Welcome to faith.
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Leela:
Again, it is not up to me to explain how this hypothesis can be falsified.
Hmmmm. Back in post 379 when Eduardo challenged you similarly, you stated that it wasn’t necessary to provide proofs, because (paraphrase here) everyone believed in evolution. You claimed: “There is much data consistent with Darwinian evolution that validates the theory.” In other words, you don’t feel the need to have to answer Eduardo’s challenge.

Maybe the feeling’s mutual. 🤷
 
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