Happy Birthday, Mr. Darwin: Growing Majority of Americans Support Teaching Both Sides of Evolution Debate

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Oh, do you believe that science has the capacity to study the supernatural?
Not empirically as in we can prove God. We can however reason the observations made by empirical science. We can study the supernatural through the other scientific disciplines and combine this knowledge to get closer to the truth.
 
When someone says to me, “This watch must have been designed by a person.” I know they are right, because I can compare it to something that is not designed by a human. It isn’t that it is more complex, on the contrary compared to a fish or even potting soil, a watch is far less complex. What makes it seem like a human invention is that it is similar to other human inventions.

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You could not have picked a worse example because watches are unlike any other human invention and science got itself into a lot of mischief based on watches and clocks.

There is no such thing as an ideal car to which other cars must aspire and basically the same with any other invention,watches are different in this respect.

The astronomical principles to which the accuracy of clocks is gauged existed for many,many centuries before clocks as we know them emerged,that people today positively refuse to acknowledge the most basic principle which creates the 24 hour day and the great invention of John Harrison, this refusal by contempraries demonstrates a remarkable feat of ignorance -

‘To reduce Watches to the right measure of dayes, or to know how much they goe too fast or too slow in 24. hours.’

" Here take notice, that the Sun or the Earth passeth the 12. Signes, or makes an entire revolution in the Ecliptick in 365 days, 5 hours 49 min. or there about, and that those days, reckon’d from noon to noon, are of different lenghts; as is known to all that are vers’d in Astronomy. Now between the longest and the shortest of those days, a day may be taken of such a length, as 365 such days, 5. hours &c. (the same numbers as before) make up, or are equall to that revolution: And this is call’d the Equal or Mean day, according to which the Watches are to be set; and therefore the Hour or Minute shew’d by the Watches, though they be perfectly Iust and equal, must needs differ almost continually from those that are shew’d by the Sun, or are reckon’d according to its Motion. But this Difference is regular, and is otherwise call’d the Aequation…"

xs4all.nl/~adcs/Huygens/06/kort-E.html

Never has one invention provided so much benefit for so many people in the right hands and has done so much damage in the wrong hands.Watches are simple devices that keep a constant pace and do nothing else,last century they decided to invest watches with the ‘magical’ property of measuring a ‘time dimension’.

What is time?
The shadow on the dial,
the striking of the clock,
the running of the sand,
day and night, summer and winter, months, years, centuries
  • these are but arbitrary and outward signs,
    the measure of Time, not Time itself.
    Time is the Life of the soul.
    Henry W. Longfellow
 
Not empirically as in we can prove God. We can however reason the observations made by empirical science. We can study the supernatural through the other scientific disciplines and combine this knowledge to get closer to the truth.
Ah, you believe that we can not empirically prove that God exists, but we can prove that God reached down and created/altered DNA.

You do realize, that once you invoke supernatural causes, it isn’t science anymore, don’t you? If I say, “Everything that burns, burns because it is evil, but I can’t prove that evil exists.” I’ve ceased doing science.

It is true we can investigate miracles using the scientific method, but in that case we are measuring and studying the observable causes and effects. We aren’t confirming miracles. We are either finding natural causes, or stating that we don’t know the natural causes.
 
You could not have picked a worse example because watches are unlike any other human invention and science got itself into a lot of mischief based on watches and clocks.
That’s just so wrong. Let’s see…the metal in clocks is cast and refined in the same manner as metal in other human inventions. The glass or plastic is created the same way. We use similar springs in different inventions. The methods of winding or batteries are found in many other inventions. Point to one in thing in a watch or a clock that is unique.
There is no such thing as an ideal car to which other cars must aspire and basically the same with any other invention,watches are different in this respect.
Well done. This is easily the most irrelevant point ever added to a conversation on Catholic Answers. But the best part is that it is not only irrelevant, it is wrong.

There is an ideal artificial horizon, an ideal barometer, an ideal water wheel (one transfers all of the water’s energy with the least amount of friction), an ideal thermometer, an ideal pressure gauge, and even an ideal sound recording system (one that perfectly renders the sound it is recording).
The astronomical principles to which the accuracy …
Oops, I was wrong. The rest of your post was even more irrelevant than the first part.

I already knew time was interesting. The point was about how a clock is clearly a human invention. Do you disagree?

Notice, I didn’t say time was a human invention. Just clocks.
 
It is true we can investigate miracles using the scientific method, but in that case we are measuring and studying the observable causes and effects. We aren’t confirming miracles. We are either finding natural causes, or stating that we don’t know the natural causes.
The useful thing about Darwin’s ‘cause’ is that it exposes the empirical doctrine as hypocrisy, as the conclusion is already drawn that the mechanics which operate for national supremacy and its dominion over other states can be directly inserted into biological evolution as a direct ‘cause’ -

“Till at length the whole territory, from the confines of China to the shores of the Baltic, was peopled by a various race of Barbarians, brave, robust, and enterprising, inured to hardship, and delighting in war. Some tribes maintained their independence. Others ranged themselves under the standard of some barbaric chieftain who led them to victory after victory, and what was of more importance, to regions abounding in corn, wine, and oil, the long wished for consummation, and great reward of their labours. An Alaric, an Attila, or a Zingis Khan, and the chiefs around them, might fight for glory, for the fame of extensive conquests, but the true cause that set in motion the great tide of northern emigration, and that continued to propel it till it rolled at different periods against China, Persia, italy, and even Egypt, was a scarcity of food, a population extended beyond the means of supporting it.” Thomas Malthus

“One day something brought to my recollection Malthus’s “Principles of Population,” which I had read about twelve years before. I thought of his clear exposition of “the positive checks to increase”—disease, accidents, war, and famine—which keep down the population of savage races to so much lower an average than that of civilized peoples. It then occurred to me that these causes or their equivalents are continually acting in the case of animals also… because in every generation the inferior would inevitably be killed off and the
superior would remain—that is, the fittest would survive.… The more I thought over it the more I became convinced that I had at length found the long-sought-for law of nature that solved the problem of the origin of species.” Charles Darwin

Neither Darwin or Malthus are at fault for believing what they did within the empirical approach but it should be an assault on a 21st century mind .The trouble is that it isn’t,it is as though Darwin never said what he did and the ideology is now toned down to an acceptable level even to Christian authorities.

In the matter of a holocaust based on ideologies,this one has had greater impact than any,as the ability of people to reason properly is suspended,whether it is from the empiricist attack on religion from the outside or the rotting of Christian denominational structures from the inside,the feature of science vs religions as separate entities is so established that the decay of reasoning and all its awful consequences will proceed unhindered -

“The basic motivation [of the Holocaust] was purely ideological, rooted in an illusionary world of Nazi imagination, where an international Jewish conspiracy to control the world was opposed to a parallel Aryan quest. No genocide to date had been based so completely on myths, on hallucinations, on abstract, nonpragmatic ideology – which was then executed by very rational, pragmatic means.” Yehuda Bauer

I have seen clearly how empiricism had acted on genuine scientific structures and created this current situation with its roots back in the late 17th century and with only the comparable agenda of the 1940’s holocaust as a guide,it follows a similar efficient path.

Most here owe nothing to the past or future generations but I do not hold to that view and God help us all.
 
T

Oops, I was wrong. The rest of your post was even more irrelevant than the first part.

I already knew time was interesting. The point was about how a clock is clearly a human invention. Do you disagree?

Notice, I didn’t say time was a human invention. Just clocks.
The 24 hour day is a human invention based on astronomical principles and I would strongly suggest that Christians learn where it comes from and how it is applied to such basic things as the 24 hours of Thursday turning into the 24 hours of Friday.

xs4all.nl/~adcs/Huygens/06/kort-E.html

On the other hand,the empiricists operate off an incorrect value for daily rotation,fixed daily rotation to an external reference as an independent motion and all other sorts of dumb and distorted things.

I have never come across such miserable reasoning among people where intuitive intelligence is required such as structural and timekeeping astronomy and evolutionary biology/geology.

The conclusion being that I have seen nothing beyond indoctrination insofar as it all ends up as science vs religion.That may not be a problem for participants here ,but for future generations who will receive the same indoctrination with the same inability to reason properly,it will be a problem they inherit from us.

I have little left to say to anyone here,truly.
 
I have little left to say to anyone here,truly.
Oh… the horror. :bigyikes:

Seriously, though. Do you read more than one or two words out of any of the posts that your respond to? I only ask, because nothing that you wrote in response to me was relevant to the point I was making.

I can understand it when people think I am wrong. I often wonder myself if my arguments are right. But I confess, I get really confused when people accuse me of using miserable reasoning, when it seems that don’t even appear to be aware of the points I am making.

Just for the sake of argument, could you at least tell me the point you think I was making?
 
Design has language, symbols, etc… So if we detect a symbol or language we attribute it to design. We can easily distinguish human design from nature’s patterns. Therefore we should be able to see God design in the same fashion.
So you think that you have detected a language that is not human an d that this language must be God’s language? What is this language you refer to? Who does God talk to with this language? I still don’t see what any of this has to do with showing that design is a valid scientific hypothesis.
 
The useful thing about Darwin’s ‘cause’ is that it exposes the empirical doctrine as hypocrisy…
Here is a perfect example. You quote a post where I am saying that the scientific method doesn’t deal in supernatural causes, and you respond with a post that is so convoluted that I can’t get through more than a paragraph without taking a nap. The one thing I did catch for sure, it had nothing to do with the subject I was discussing.
 
Ah, you believe that we can not empirically prove that God exists, but we can prove that God reached down and created/altered DNA.

You do realize, that once you invoke supernatural causes, it isn’t science anymore, don’t you? If I say, “Everything that burns, burns because it is evil, but I can’t prove that evil exists.” I’ve ceased doing science.

It is true we can investigate miracles using the scientific method, but in that case we are measuring and studying the observable causes and effects. We aren’t confirming miracles. We are either finding natural causes, or stating that we don’t know the natural causes.
Since you brought DNA into it biologists and the literature over the last 50 years state that DNA is a code. All codes are designed.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SHW View Post
I am not personally an inclusive literalist when it comes to Bible interpretation. Far from it. And I certainly do not believe that the creation accounts should be interpreted in a strictly literal context. I was actually pointing out the dangers, if a person interprets everything in the Bible literally.
But you ARE the Literalist. Biblical Literalists attempt to interpret the Bible LITERALLY where it clearly should not be interpreted thusly. You are FORCING a LITERAL interpretation where none is warranted.
This may help:

I got this from John Martignoni’s Bible Christian Society website:

"The ‘literal’ meaning of a passage of Scripture is the meaning that the author of that passage of Scripture intended to convey. The ‘literalist’ interpretation of a passage of Scripture is: ‘that’s what it says, that’s what it means.’

Let me give you an example to illustrate the difference. If you were to read a passage in a book that said it was ‘raining cats and dogs outside’, how would you interpret that? As Americans, in the 21st Century, you would know that the author was intending to convey the idea that it was raining pretty doggone hard outside. That would be the ‘literal’ interpretation…the interpretation the author intended to convey. On the other hand, what if you made a ‘iteralist’ interpretation of the phrase, ‘it’s raining cats and dogs’?

The ‘literalist’ interpretation would be that, were you to walk outside, you would actually see cats and dogs falling from the sky like rain. No taking into account the popularly accepted meaning of this phrase. No taking into account the author’s intentions. The words say it was raining cats and dogs, so, by golly, it was raining cats and dogs! That is the literalist, or fundamentalist, way of interpretation…

Literal, or Catholic, interpretation vs. literalist, or fundamentalist, interpretation."
 
"PEPCIS:
Random events create random patterns. Intelligent Design events create non-random patterns. Intelligent Design can be tested for.
How? (isn’t “random pattern” an oxymoron?)
An example of a random pattern would be the distribution of pebbles on a beach, where the tiniest pebbles might be on the bottom, with increasingly larger pebbles on the surface. This is because the random action of the waves on the shoreline sort the pebbles.

Nature can only produce repetitious patterns which are periodic, while Intelligence produces patterns which are non-repetitious and aperiodic, like the words in this posting.
PEPCIS said:
Random patterns such as the arrangement of pebbles on a beach from the action of the waves, can be distinguished from Intelligently Designed patterns such as a castle built from beach sand.
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Leela:
How could you hope to ever refute the claim that the exact arrangement of pebbles on the beach is so astronomically unlikely as to validate my belief that universe must have been designed for the purpose of making that exact arrangement of pebbles?

The “exact arrangement of pebbles on the beach” is EXACTLY what one would expect to find if that arrangement were ordered by nature through natural processes.

On the other hand, if you were flying an airplane over the beach and saw a bunch of large rocks forming huge letters spelling out “HELP!!!”, then you would surmise, CORRECTLY, that natural processes did not bring that arrangement about.
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Leela:
What you need is a method for showing that something was not designed.
We already have that - it’s called “logic.” We constantly are assessing patterns around us, and making determinations on whether those patterns were the result of natural processes, or if they were intelligently derived.

As a matter of fact, one of the best known SCIENTIFIC methods for performing such tests is referred to as “forensics.”
 
Natural Selection. How do you explain it? By the way, Natural Selection IS NOT evolution.
Natural selection is a process when an organism’s favorable heritable traits pass on to succeeding generations. Natural selection is one of the mechanisms of evolution.
 
"PEPCIS:
The conversation seemed to be assessing the accumulation of information - a very real problem for evolution, because evolution theory cannot account for the accumulation of information.
If you are unable to measure, numerically, the information in DNA then you have no means of knowing whether the information has increased, decreased or stayed the same. Without a measure you are not in any position to say anything at all.
Actually, it is YOU (collectively, all evolutionists) who have the problem, and are not in a position to say anything at all. That’s because they are unable to explain how that intelligently-derived information arose in a biotic molecule.

You can only stare at it, and you cannot answer it, because you have no way to explain it. You claim that measuring it by the aggregation and pattern of the data points is sufficient, but that is like measuring the worth of a man by the color of his pants.
PEPCIS said:
For evolution to occur from the beginning of a single-cell to that of an animal with organs and higher brain function, then genetic information must be replaced by new and larger amounts of information.
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rossum:
Not always replaced, sometimes just added to, sometimes just subtracted and sometimes just tweaked slightly. A species of cave fish may lose the information needed to form eyes.

You never answered what I stated. For evolution to occur from the beginning of a single-cell to that of an animal with organs and higher brain function, then genetic information must be replaced/added to/subtracted/tweaked/etc. etc, by new and larger amounts of information.
PEPCIS said:
This replacement of information has to occur in the entire population of a species if it is to evolve into another species.
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rossum:
False. Does the human species have blue eyes or brown eyes? A population of a species is almost never uniform. There are genetic variations within the species.

You’re pretty good at dodging the questions. Any added/replaced/subtracted/tweaked information must be assimilated in the whole population for it to evolve. We are talking about “evolution”, not allelic frequencies.
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rossum:
You just lost your argument. A few seconds on Google came up with Unmasking Evolution - Sample Lecture which contains your text exactly. Unless you are Laurence D Smart, the author of that site, then you have used his work unattributed; you did not even put quotation marks round the part you copied. In science plagiarism is theft - taking someone else’s work and passing it off as your own. In science plagiarism will cost you your job and any research grants that you might have. In science plagiarism loses you the argument. If you use someone else’s work then you must attribute it correctly. You did not do this so you lose.
LOL You are really doing great!!! Every step of the way, you’ll do everything necessary to avoid answering the questions. Here’s what Laurence D Smart had to say about his material:

[SIGN]“I have published some of my lectures on the Internet, and I offer them to everyone to print, free of charge. Please copy them and distribute them.”[/SIGN]

You lose, because you’re too dang scared to answer the questions.
rossum said:
So how do you explain the evolution of antibiotic resistance in bacteria?
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PEPCIS:
Natural Selection. How do you explain it? By the way, Natural Selection IS NOT evolution.
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rossum:
By the way, Jesus Christ IS NOT Christianity.

Actually, He is. And you don’t get to tell Christians what is, and what is not Christianity. 😛
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rossum:
You do not get to tell us what evolution is or is not, evolution is defined independently of either you or me (as is Christianity). Evolution includes natural selection so natural selection is part (though not all) of evolution.
You are wrong on several counts.
Natural Selection is an explanation of how evolution works. Specifically, it is THE PRINCIPAL MECHANISM by which evolution works.
I don’t have to “tell you what evolution is or is not” because all I have to do is to repeat to you what evolutionists tell me that evolution is. And evolutionists will tell you that Natural Selection is the MECHANISM for evolution.

Now, would you like to try answering the question again?
 
Quote:
I got this from John Martignoni’s Bible Christian Society website:

"The ‘literal’ meaning of a passage of Scripture is the meaning that the author of that passage of Scripture intended to convey. The ‘literalist’ interpretation of a passage of Scripture is: ‘that’s what it says, that’s what it means.’

Let me give you an example to illustrate the difference. If you were to read a passage in a book that said it was ‘raining cats and dogs outside’, how would you interpret that? As Americans, in the 21st Century, you would know that the author was intending to convey the idea that it was raining pretty doggone hard outside. That would be the ‘literal’ interpretation…the interpretation the author intended to convey. On the other hand, what if you made a ‘iteralist’ interpretation of the phrase, ‘it’s raining cats and dogs’?

The ‘literalist’ interpretation would be that, were you to walk outside, you would actually see cats and dogs falling from the sky like rain. No taking into account the popularly accepted meaning of this phrase. No taking into account the author’s intentions. The words say it was raining cats and dogs, so, by golly, it was raining cats and dogs! That is the literalist, or fundamentalist, way of interpretation…

Literal, or Catholic, interpretation vs. literalist, or fundamentalist, interpretation."
Hi Monty, 🙂

Thank you for the definitions. Very Helpful.

Pax,
SHW
 
Since you brought DNA into it biologists and the literature over the last 50 years state that DNA is a code. All codes are designed.
Are they? How do you know that?

How would you go about showing that DNA couldn’t possibly come about through natural processes?
 
Are they? How do you know that?

How would you go about showing that DNA couldn’t possibly come about through natural processes?
I guess we should rename it the genetic uncode. 😉

It would be easy. All one has to do is show that language, codes and symbols come from natural processes. Do you have any examples?

Codes, instructions and symbols convey thoughts. Thoughts come from a mind.

DNA conveys instructions.
 
An example of a random pattern would be the distribution of pebbles on a beach, where the tiniest pebbles might be on the bottom, with increasingly larger pebbles on the surface.
By definition, that’s not random, since there is order in it. Better, the distribution of particle sizes in drumlins would work. But at the beach, you’ve shown order can arise from natural processes.
 
"PEPCIS:
Random events create random patterns. Intelligent Design events create non-random patterns. Intelligent Design can be tested for.
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Leela:
How? (isn’t “random pattern” an oxymoron?)
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PEPCIS:
No. An example of a random pattern would be the distribution of pebbles on a beach, where the tiniest pebbles might be on the bottom, with increasingly larger pebbles on the surface.
By definition, that’s not random, since there is order in it.
First, by WHAT definition?
Second, order is not equal to information.
Third, randomness does not negate order.
Barbarian:
Better, the distribution of particle sizes in drumlins would work.
Yes, that would work, JUST AS WELL. There is an order to certain/many/most natural processes.
Barbarian:
But at the beach, you’ve shown order can arise from natural processes.
Yes. But order alone is insufficient to define information.
 
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