Happy Birthday, Mr. Darwin: Growing Majority of Americans Support Teaching Both Sides of Evolution Debate

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You are asking about systematics. Linnaeus started things off by classifying organisms according to their properties. It was soon noticed that some properties did not overlap, and so were more useful for classification than others. There is no overlap between fur and feathers - no organism has both, just fur (mammals), feathers (birds) or neither (the rest). Overlapping features (like legs) are not so much use. Snakes have no legs while lizards and spiders both do, but it is obvious that lizards are more like snakes than spiders. All of this allowed early biologists to build a nested hierarchy based on these non-overlapping characteristics. Some organisms showed a strange mix of characteristics, like a platypus which has fur but also lays eggs. Such strange animals (and some fossils with similar strange mixes of characteristics) allowed biologists to link together different parts of the hierarchy into a tree - the Tree of Life. In order to classify something you need to know what the important non-overlapping characteristics are; that is what is taught in university classes on the subject.

rossum
The ‘tree of life’ indeed !,all you have managed to do is airbrush geological evolution out of the picture and leave biological evolution out of context with the other planetary elements.

Try a real history for a change and if you want to credit a biological time-line then give it to William Smith -

rockglacier.blogspot.com/2008/10/wiliam-smith.html

You are fine with your ‘tree of life’ and I am sure it impresses weakminded Christians but the airbrushing was done with an essay national supremacy on the justification for death.
 
"PEPCIS:
Random events create random patterns. Intelligent Design events create non-random patterns. Intelligent Design can be tested for.
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Leela:
How? (isn’t “random pattern” an oxymoron?)
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PEPCIS:
No. An example of a random pattern would be the distribution of pebbles on a beach, where the tiniest pebbles might be on the bottom, with increasingly larger pebbles on the surface.
The Barbarian:
By definition, that’s not random, since there is order in it.
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PEPCIS:
First, by WHAT definition?
**random
   /ˈrændəm/
  1. proceeding, made, or occurring without definite**
aim, reason, or pattern: the random selection of numbers.
2. Statistics. of or characterizing a process of selection in which each item of a set has an equal probability of being chosen.

If it’s ordered, it’s not random.
Let me help you out here. Notice definition #1 where it says that random is something that “proceeds, is made, or occurs without aim, reason, or pattern.” Also notice that the definition states, SPECIFICALLY, that random is something that “proceeds, is made, or occurs without DEFINITE aim, reason, or pattern.”

So, you missed the word “DEFINITE.” That’s understandable, because you are predisposed against the definition saying anything that might, could, possibly result in a pattern. After all, “pattern” denotes design, or intelligence - two words that are anathema to your senses!!

The definition DOES NOT STATE that there is “no pattern”, but that there is no DEFINITE pattern." That is a world of difference.

To your evolutionary mindset, pattern and random are the antithesis of each other. But patterns, such as are produced by random forces, show periodicity in their results (ie, are regularly repeating), while patterns, such as are produced by intelligence, show aperiodicity in their results (ie, do not repeat regularly).

Oooooo, how you hate such a conclusion!! That’s because if you accept this, then you must also accept that evolution could never produce MORE INFORMATION, but only random ordering. But the facts are the facts. Just own up to them so we can move on.

Snow flakes and ice crystals exhibit regular and periodic patterns driven by natural causes. No information.
 
"PEPCIS:
Second, order is not equal to information.
Of course. Information is a measure of uncertainty.
This shows how little you are understanding the concept of Shannon information. The term “measure of uncertainty” specifically details the measure of the amount of loss of information in a transmission within an electronic circuit - ie, from modem to modem. In reality, Shannon’s contribution only measured the data points, and not the content of the information contained within those data points.

You still have yet to grasp the concept that data points are NOT INFORMATION, but simply the carrier of information.
Barbarian:
Just so we know what you believe, how about showing us how you would calculate the amount of information in something?
I’m gonna wait for your definition before we proceed any further with this…
 
Snow flakes and ice crystals exhibit regular and periodic patterns driven by natural causes. No information.
That is incorrect, some crystals display quasi-periodicity which means that they are neither ordered or random.This suits me fine as I look at evolutionary biology in terms of both efficiency and beauty -

scienceu.com/geometry/articles/tiling/penrose.html

It is the inherent background condition which causes crystal growth to organise in a quasi-periodic fashion but this would be lost on people here who have no feeling for the topic.Too dumb and too blinkered to see the reasoning behind the Divine Proportion as it applies to animate and inanimate objects but that is what happens when you do not have the gifts of God to improvise.

That work is now a private work of 20 years and thank God it will never suffer the same fate as the work of my astronomical and geological ancestors .

Truth be told,I have seen nobody with a strong character to deal with matters which need attention,neither here or in the wider community.
 
A very clear explanation of what drives evolution … is there an equally clear explanation of those instances where evolution appears to be parked, such as with turtles, sharks, and crocodilians?

Ender
Read the same passage again. It just as clearly explains why there is stability in certain variations as it explains the success of changes in other.

Think of it this way. Imagine a group of crabs that grew up and lived out their lives in a particular cave. They would go out briefly looking for food, and then scurry back to their cave for protection. They did so well as a species that they started to get to the point that they were filling up the cave and the food supply was getting over harvested. In order to survive, the crabs were having to move farther away from the cave to get food.

Eventually, some crabs are going to start looking for a new shelter. Either they will get lost, or they will just happen upon a new shelter between the cave and their foraging grounds. Now, this shelter might not be ideal, but it is good enough for some of the crabs to survive in. One more important detail is that these crabs mate in their caves, so once the new colony is established, there ceases to be any cross breeding.

Let’s call the crabs in the first cave, Group A and the second cave Group B. Nothing has changed for the Group A crabs. They were well adapted to the first cave, and they are well adapted now. In the second group there has been a change. What worked best in the first cave isn’t necessarily what works best in the second.

In the above scenario, and many others like it, we would expect to see more changes take place in Group B than we would in Group A.
 
"PEPCIS to rossum:
You never answered what I stated. For evolution to occur from the beginning of a single-cell to that of an animal with organs and higher brain function, then genetic information must be replaced/added to/subtracted/tweaked/etc. etc, by new and larger amounts of information.
All new mutations add information to the population.
You have not established that yet. You simply make claims. On the other hand, I have shown how it is that insertions and mutations DO NOT ADD information, but actually degrade the information.
Barbarian:
And [mutations] occur randomly.
Most certainly. And randomness cannot produce information.
 
The “parking” is often just appearance.
Stasis is more than appearance. There are some species that have hardly changed in hundreds of millions of years. At least acknowledge that this is an unresolved issue.
If a general pattern is well adapted to its environment and that environment is stable then that general pattern will tend to persist in that environment for a long time. There will be variations on the pattern, but for the time that the environment remains stable the variations will be small.
Perhaps so - but I don’t recall this caveat listed in the “three basic facts” of natural selection you listed earlier and it really does seem to contradict your third point that “there are limited resources of food, space, etc for any species.” That is, even where the environment does not change, as long as there is competition between individuals there should be evolution.

I make no claim that stasis disproves Darwinism (or even seriously discommodes it) but it is somewhat irksome that the laws used to explain the evolution of species are flexible enough to be dispensed with where necessary to explain those cases where the “laws” don’t seem to apply.

Ender
 
Are there instances where evolution speeded up so that generations were shorter than expected?
Generation length is independent of the speed of evolution; the speed of evolution is measured in units called (inevitably) Darwins. The Darwin is defined over a million years rather than over a specific number of generations.

The speed of evolution depends on the degree of matching between the organism and its environment. The greater the difference the greater the evolutionary pressure and the greater the speed of evolution.

The degree of matching changes as environments change and as organisms move into new environments.

rossum
 
Barbarian observes:
All new mutations add information to the population.
You have not established that yet.
Claude Shannon established that. He was the first to accurately measure information. It is his equations that permit huge amounts of information to be reliably coded through the pipes that allow you to send your misconceptions to all of us.

Would you like me to show you how it works?
On the other hand, I have shown how it is that insertions and mutations DO NOT ADD information,
No, you simply asserted that, and declined to show us the numbers. So you post your calculations, and then I’ll show you mine. If you decline to support your assertion, I’ll show you why you are wrong after your next post.
but actually degrade the information.
Birds used to have teeth. Is the loss of teeth a loss of information, or a gain of information?
 
Let me help you out here. Notice definition #1 where it says that random is something that “proceeds, is made, or occurs without aim, reason, or pattern.” Also notice that the definition states, SPECIFICALLY, that random is something that “proceeds, is made, or occurs without DEFINITE aim, reason, or pattern.”
I don’t understand. can you give me an example of a definite pattern and contrast it with an indefinite pattern?
So, you missed the word “DEFINITE.” That’s understandable, because you are predisposed against the definition saying anything that might, could, possibly result in a pattern. After all, “pattern” denotes design, or intelligence - two words that are anathema to your senses!!
???

The definition defines randomness in contrast to patterns. But if you mean that patterns can emerge through random processes, I agree.
The definition DOES NOT STATE that there is “no pattern”, but that there is no DEFINITE pattern." That is a world of difference.
Again, I’m not seeing much difference between a pattern and a definite pattern. An example might help.
To your evolutionary mindset, pattern and random are the antithesis of each other. But patterns, such as are produced by random forces, show periodicity in their results (ie, are regularly repeating), while patterns, such as are produced by intelligence, show aperiodicity in their results (ie, do not repeat regularly).
I don’t see how such a distinction works.

If I divide 63 by 99 I get .6363636363636363636363…

That pattern is produced by intelligence and shows periodicity.
Oooooo, how you hate such a conclusion!!
I certainly hate your tone here.
That’s because if you accept this, then you must also accept that evolution could never produce MORE INFORMATION, but only random ordering. But the facts are the facts. Just own up to them so we can move on.
I haven’t argued for the validity of evolutionary theory. I’ve only argued that evolution is a valid scientific hypothesis. My concern has been about whether ID is a legitimate scientific hypothesis. It isn’t as far as I can tell.

If you say that it is, then you must explain how a universe that is designed would be different from one that evolved through natural processes.

Best,
Leela
 
Stasis is more than appearance. There are some species that have hardly changed in hundreds of millions of years. At least acknowledge that this is an unresolved issue.
I’d like to know the names of those species. To which ones are you referring? Genus and species, if you will.
Perhaps so - but I don’t recall this caveat listed in the “three basic facts” of natural selection you listed earlier and it really does seem to contradict your third point that
No. It just means that well-adapted organisms, in a stable environment, won’t change much. It’s called “stabilizing selection”, and it’s very well documented. It’s a prediction of Darwinian theory; if the population is well-adapted, then natural selection will prevent evolution.

I’m really intrigued about a species unchanged over hundreds of millions of years. Tell us about it.
 
Random means without any pattern.
No, it simply means that it does not occur with aperiodicity. Random means that you can predict outcomes on the basis of the regularity of random forces.
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Leela:
Pattern means repetition.
Yes. But what is a non-random pattern? Or, do you consider that an oxymoron?
PEPCIS said:
The “exact arrangement of pebbles on the beach” is EXACTLY what one would expect to find if that arrangement were ordered by nature through natural processes.
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Leela:
To say that would suggest that if one pebble would have been in a different location, we would have to conclude that teh process for not natural. Obviously, this is not so.

No, to say that is to suggest that a regular, repeating pattern ensues from natural forces. Just because SOME pebbles don’t end up where you expect them to based upon those natural forces does not negate the randomness of the pattern.
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Leela:
I agree. We could conclude that the message was designed. My question is how we could ever say that EVERYTHING is not designed.
We do this all the time. If I come home, and I find my gate latch broken, I can assume that it happened by natural forces (rust acting on the metal deteriorates it to the point that it falls apart), or I can do a cursory investigation, and notice the footprint from where someone kicked the gate open, thereby busting the latch.

I don’t have to be present to make these conclusions, because these are things that I have previously experienced, and have established as solid evidence for such occurrences in the event that they occur again.

However, absent any footprint on the gate, or any other evidence of tampering, I would be justified in concluding that this was just an occurrence of nature, and that there was no design to its demise.

So, in answer to your question, the way that we could say that not everything is designed, is by testing for design. As I said previously, we test for it all the time, and in many scientific disciplines.
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Leela:
You may be on to something. But you still need to describe a method of distinguishing patterns that are the result of natural processes or human intelligence from those that are the result of unnatural intelligence.
“Unnatural intelligence”? What’s that?
PEPCIS said:
As a matter of fact, one of the best known SCIENTIFIC methods for performing such tests is referred to as “forensics.”
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Leela:
Can you unpack this?

Forensics is a discipline in science that differentiates between events that are caused, and events that are naturally occurring.

Another scientific endeavor that differentiates between naturally occurring events and intelligently derived events is SETI (Search for Extraterrestrial Intelligence).
 
Generation length is independent of the speed of evolution; the speed of evolution is measured in units called (inevitably) Darwins. The Darwin is defined over a million years rather than over a specific number of generations.

The speed of evolution depends on the degree of matching between the organism and its environment. The greater the difference the greater the evolutionary pressure and the greater the speed of evolution.

The degree of matching changes as environments change and as organisms move into new environments.

rossum
Thank you, rossum,

This clears up an idea I had about the length of a generation = 20 years and the length of evolution = 10 million years from Dr. Laurence Smart’s website which was on post 455.

I recently purchased The Ancestor’s Tale. Your recommendation gives me another push to get started reading. I have been checking out suggested links. Thank you.

Blessings,
granny

All human life is a joy to behold.
 
"rossum:
If we use Shannon information as a measure then we can show that information can be increased by evolution. If we use Kolmogorov information as a measure then we can show that information can be increased by evolution. If we use Fisher information as a measure then we can show that information can be increased by evolution.
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PEPCIS:
For evolution to occur from the beginning of a single-cell to that of an animal with organs and higher brain function, then genetic information must be replaced/added to/subtracted/tweaked/etc. etc, by new and larger amounts of information.
I have emphasised “larger amounts of informaiton”.
You have not. You have continued to throw out the proverbial red herring of “Shannon information” as if that were able to answer everything.

I have shown both you and Barbarian how it is that information is not simply the aggregation of data points, and that an insertion/mutation is nothing more than the RANDOM introduction of another data point. Data points do not increase information unless they actually carry information.
 
Can you clarify this?

Ender
I’m gonna assume that the question was directed to me.
  • order alone is insufficient to define information.
  • order is not equal to information.
Order is an adjective which describes the physical condition of elements within a phenomenon, or an epiphenomenon that is naturally occurring, or is the result of intelligently driven forces.

Therefore, order is not information (not equal to information), and neither is it sufficient to define information (contrary to what Barbarian was attempting to claim).
 
The Barbarian said:
All new mutations add information to the population.
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PEPCIS:
You have not established that yet.
Barbarian:
Claude Shannon established that.

Absurdity. Shannon was an electronics engineer who earned the title “father of information theory” because of his ground-breaking work in information.

But, one thing is abundantly clear: Shannon was NOT a biologist, and he never established anything in regards to biology.
Barbarian:
He was the first to accurately measure information.
I suppose he was.
PEPCIS said:
On the other hand, I have shown how it is that insertions and mutations DO NOT ADD information…
Barbarian:
No, you simply asserted that…

Post #386
Barbarian:
Birds used to have teeth. Is the loss of teeth a loss of information, or a gain of information?
According to evolution, most likely either a decrease in information, or simply an exchange of information.
 
"PEPCIS:
Let me help you out here. Notice definition #1 where it says that random is something that “proceeds, is made, or occurs without aim, reason, or pattern.” Also notice that the definition states, SPECIFICALLY, that random is something that "proceeds, is made, or occurs without DEFINITE

aim, reason, or pattern."
I don’t understand. can you give me an example of a definite pattern and contrast it with an indefinite pattern?

The definition defines randomness in contrast to patterns. But if you mean that patterns can emerge through random processes, I agree.
Ok, let’s see if I can get this back on track. I’ll agree with you that random processes can create patterns that are periodic. If the pattern is aperiodic, then there is a high chance that intelligence is behind it.
 
Absurdity. Shannon was an electronics engineer who earned the title “father of information theory” because of his ground-breaking work in information.
Yep. His stuff works. Yours doesn’t. That’s why you’re unwilling to show us.
But, one thing is abundantly clear: Shannon was NOT a biologist, and he never established anything in regards to biology.
Not surprisingly, you’re completely wrong about that, too:
**Claude Shannon: Biologist
The Founder of Information Theory Used Biology to Formulate the Channel Capacity
THOMAS D. SCHNEIDER
Shannon’s crucial concept was that the spheres must not intersect in a communications system, and from this he built the channel capacity formula and theorem. But, at its root, the concept that the spheres must be separated is a biological criterion that does not apply to physical systems in general. Although it is well known that Shannon’s uncertainty measure is similar to the entropy function, the channel capacity and its theorem are rarely, if ever, mentioned in thermodynamics or physics, perhaps because these aspects of information theory are about biology, so no direct application could be found in those fields. Since he used a property of biology to formulate his mathematics, I conclude that Claude Shannon was doing biology and was therefore, effectively, a biologist—although he was probably unaware of it.
It is not surprising that Shannon’s mathematics can be fruitfully applied to understanding biological systems [7], [8], [14]. Models built with information theory methods can be used to characterize the patterns in DNA or RNA to which proteins and other molecules bind [15]-[19] and even can be used to predict if a change to the DNA will cause a genetic disease in humans [20], [21]. Further information about molecular information theory is available at the Web site ccrnp.ncifcrf.gov/~toms/.
What are the implications of the idea that Shannon was doing biology? First, it means that communications systems and molecular biology are headed on a collision course. As electrical circuits approach molecular sizes, the results of molecular biologists can be used to guide designs [22], [23]. We might envision a day when communications and biology are treated as a single field. Second, codes discovered for communications potentially teach us new biology if we find the same codes in a biological system. Finally, the reverse is also to be anticipated: discoveries in molecular biology about systems that have been refined by evolution for billions of years should tell us how to build new and more efficient communications systems. **
IEEE Eng Med Biol Mag. 2006; 25(1): 30–33.

On the other hand, I have shown how it is that insertions and mutations DO NOT ADD information…
Barbarian observes:
No, you simply asserted that, but you haven’t shown us any reason to believe it.
Post #386
Sorry, that’s wrong. Let’s get started…

The genetic information in a population, for any specific gene:

H = - K Sigma i = 1 n (pi log(p)i) ,

In other words, the sum of all the frequencies of all the alleles for that gene, multiplied by the log of the frequencies of the allele.

So, for example, if we have two alleles each 0.5 frequency, the information for that gene is about 0.30. Suppose a new mutation arises, and soon there are three alleles each about 0.33. Now the information is about 0.48.

That’s how it works. Do you know of any process, required for evolution that is prohibited by “information?”

Barbarian observes:
Birds used to have teeth. Is the loss of teeth a loss of information, or a gain of information?
According to evolution, most likely either a decrease in information, or simply an exchange of information.
No, that’s wrong. There’s only one more choice. Would you like to try again?

Joking aside, birds lack teeth, because there’s a new allele that suppresses the formation of teeth. They still have the genes for teeth. Hence, this mutation added information.
Therefore, order is not information (not equal to information), and neither is it sufficient to define information (contrary to what Barbarian was attempting to claim).
You’ve gotten confused again. I told you that information was a measure of uncertainty. You may find that objectionable, but nevertheless, if you use that definition, it’s possible to greatly compress data and see that it gets transmitted with minimum error. In other words, it works.

That’s a pretty good thing, um?
 
I have shown both you and Barbarian how it is that information is not simply the aggregation of data points, and that an insertion/mutation is nothing more than the RANDOM introduction of another data point. Data points do not increase information unless they actually carry information.
How are you measuring the quantity of information? What measure are you using and how do you calculate it? You cannot say “increase information” without some absolute or relative measure of the quantity of information.

What measure of information are you using?

rossum
 
Why would I need to show that language comes about naturally? DNA isn’t a language. Who “reads” DNA? It is a set of chemical signals, not a language.

What “thought” is conveyed in the production of histidine?

Put it this way, other than saying, “It doesn’t, because it can’t, because it doesn’t.” Do you have any evidence to support your claim?
DNA is a coding system. It has a message. It contains all the instructions necessary for life, a map if you will.
 
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