Hard article to refute

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The key word I was looking for (and found) in the article was fundamentalists. That sounds like it calls for sola scriptura apologetics and to my knowledge Catholics aren’t biblical literalists.

I’d be interested in hearing what older, wiser, more educated Catholics than I would have to say about this though! 👍

I scrolled through the article and will read it in greater detail later, but in general when I see fundies brought up I already feel like the truth of Christianity is being misrepresented. Oftentimes in personal conversations when I hear an accusation against Christianity, I’m usually able to overcome the objection towards it simply by saying “Catholics don’t believe that, but some other denominations do” and then I go on to explain that none of these denominations even existed until 1500 years after Christ.
 
Can someone refute this article? It and some others on the website has bothered me.

dbskeptic.com/2011/01/02/bible-prophecies-and-myth/

Thanks
Seriously: don’t worry about it. Christ has fulfilled the “Law,” and fulfilled the Old Covenant in his own blood. Anything lacking or incomplete in either the Law or the Old Covenant has been completed. The age of prophesy has been completed and is at an end.

The only End Times we need worry about is our own life and death.
 
Can someone refute this article? It and some others on the website has bothered me.

dbskeptic.com/2011/01/02/bible-prophecies-and-myth/

Thanks
My suggestion…when you see articles and purported claims like these…think about this passage…Then from 1John 4…6 We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit[a] of truth and the spirit of falsehood.

See how St. Paul fulfills this passage…Galatians 1:18 Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to visit Cephas and remained with him fifteen days.
Galatians 2:2 I went in response to a revelation and, meeting privately with those esteemed as leaders, I presented to them the gospel that I preach among the Gentiles. I wanted to be sure I was not running and had not been running my race in vain.

Paul had a direct revelation from Christ. Yet, from the two passages above, he goes to visit Cephas/Peter and submits himself to Peter. Gal 2: 2 states his purpose…to present his gospel/message to make sure it is in line with the Apostles and what they were handed down from Christ.

Ask yourself this question…who with apostolic origin…to whom did they submit their claims, their bible interpretation…who with apostolic origin validated their claims, their claim of the true gospel…following the example of st. paul?

If they cannot provide such proof…following the passage from 1john4…v6…then you can assure yourself…This is how we recognize the Spirit[a] of truth and the spirit of falsehood.
 
Can someone refute this article? It and some others on the website has bothered me.

dbskeptic.com/2011/01/02/bible-prophecies-and-myth/

Thanks
OK, let’s cut right to the chase:

The author, R.C. Symes, is not a Christian, but he knows how to sound convincing when passing himself off as an authority on scripture.

You can do it too. Stand up straight, lift your chin, and speak rapidly in organized coherent sentences. Doesn’t matter what you say, so long as you use a confident voice and a forward-leaning attitude.

Having established a posture of authority, R. C. Symes now tells you that he’s right and you’re ignorant. End of story. He has his facts together and you don’t, so (insert rim-shot here) he must be right. For every question you ask he has an answer. For every answer you give, he has another question.

Symes says Jesus got a prophecy wrong so he must not be God. He gets even blunter a little further down. Jesus made a false prophecy, so he’s also a liar. Symes, of course, is right, because Symes has thought this through and he has a disciplined mind and he understands the fundamental truths that you don’t pay enough attention to.

Bono, are you starting to get the idea? When you come across arrogant, ignorant tripe like this, stop trying to refute the statements unless you like swimming in quicksand. If the source is not credible, the rest of the blog can be safely disregarded.
 
There is no need to refute this article 🤷 It’s just written on erroneous and false premises 🤷 The moment you see: “Jesus was wrong”, right there you can stop reading and say a little prayer for the author.
 
Can someone refute this article? It and some others on the website has bothered me.

dbskeptic.com/2011/01/02/bible-prophecies-and-myth/

Thanks
So Ezekiel prophesies the destruction of Tyre and it happens. The author’s beef is that Tyre was not totally destroyed. If i said I was going to totally destroy my house, and the next day you come along and see five bricks still standing, if all you can say is “Look! You missed a spot!” Does that make what I said false or in complete or would you simply be a smart alic? Furthermore, Tyre, though not physically destroyed in its entirety, still paid tribute to Babylon. They were still conquered in some political sense. The author also says it was never rebuilt to its former glory. Just because the city is still called Tyre does not mean it is tge same Tyre prior to its destruction. So what part of Ezekiel’s prophecy wasn’t true? Its like if I prophesied that a thousand quarters would fall out of the sky tomorrow and it happened. You then counted and found only 999. Am I a false prophet? The author could have easily reconciled this if not for his bias in wanting to find a foothold against our faith.

Furthermore, Jesus was not wrong. St. John saw the return of Jesus before tasting death as recorded in Revelation. Also, those who lived tgen will see it all. You are Catholic, dont you believe tge saits are alive? Moreover, in resurrection all the saints will be raised physically and raptured with our Lord. There is also St. Peter’s saying of “a thousand years is as day to the Lord.” Simarly, when Sadducees ask Jesus sbout the resurrection Jesus responds by pointing out that God IS tge God of Abraham. He is the God of the living and not the dead. Also, research the “in between but not yet” in Google search. Also, “the Kingdom” is a much broader and comprehensive concept than the author probably realizes. What did Jesus mean by coming in His Kingdom?

The author has not shown these prophecies to be false by any means. There is nothing that cannot be reconciled through exegesis. The author totally skips over all the accuracies of these prophecies and tries to falsify the entire prophecy by clung to a small detail that could easily be understood as hyperbole. He is trying to falsify these prophecies through a worldview he does not understand and critiques the prophecy of Jesus, but does not put in any effort to understand. He does not seek to understand. He has already, in his mind, already understood it to be false. “There’s no way this can be reconciled!” He says. “Let me look for whatever I can find that SEEMS (at least to him) to justify my position!” Is critiques are not very sincere, thought out, or problematic. May the Lord bless you with the assurance of our faith and in the knowledge of our lord, Jesus Christ.
 
So Ezekiel prophesies the destruction of Tyre and it happens. The author’s beef is that Tyre was not totally destroyed. If i said I was going to totally destroy my house, and the next day you come along and see five bricks still standing, if all you can say is “Look! You missed a spot!” Does that make what I said false or in complete or would you simply be a smart alic?
Read the biblical quotes again. They’re not saying that Tyre would be severely damaged. It said it would be completely destroyed where it would be like a gleaming rock that fisherman cast nets from. It’s not being nitpicky, just highly inaccurate.
Furthermore, Tyre, though not physically destroyed in its entirety, still paid tribute to Babylon. They were still conquered in some political sense.
But the verses weren’t discussing the political sense. It was quite clearly discussing physical devestaion. To try and spin it as a political metaphor is to completely forego the plain meaning of words.
The author also says it was never rebuilt to its former glory. Just because the city is still called Tyre does not mean it is tge same Tyre prior to its destruction. So what part of Ezekiel’s prophecy wasn’t true?
  1. The part where he said where it would be like a gleaming rock.
  2. The part where he said it would never be rebuilt. (It doesn’t say never rebuilt to its former glory, but never rebuilt – full stop.)
  3. The part where he said it would never again be inhabited.
Its like if I prophesied that a thousand quarters would fall out of the sky tomorrow and it happened. You then counted and found only 999. Am I a false prophet? The author could have easily reconciled this if not for his bias in wanting to find a foothold against our faith.
Not quite. Quarters falling out of the sky doesn’t happen, whereas cities being attacked and destroyed does happen. A more accurate analogy would be if you predicted I would find a quarter on the street in the next year and that it will be a rare one worth over $1,000 and then I find a regular old 2011 quarter. The probable part happened and the fanciful part didn’t.
Furthermore, Jesus was not wrong. St. John saw the return of Jesus before tasting death as recorded in Revelation. snip
Again, read the biblical passages. Mark 13:23-25 says that prior to Jesus’ return the sun will be darkened. the moon will not give light, and the stars will fall from the heavens. Did any of that occur before John died?
The author has not shown these prophecies to be false by any means.
But he did. The Tyre prophecy was inaccurate. It would be like predicting a hurricane will hit Florida and that it will sink into the ocean, then claim success when a hurricane hits Florida (as they are wont to do).
There is nothing that cannot be reconciled through exegesis.
To me that comes off as saying there is no thing that can’t be proven correct through proper massaging and redefining of words. I know that’s not what you’re implying at all, but that’s what it sounds like.
The author totally skips over all the accuracies of these prophecies and tries to falsify the entire prophecy by clung to a small detail that could easily be understood as hyperbole.
Saying the city will never again be inhabited is not a small detail. Saying stars will fall from the sky is not a small detail. It’s these big things that make a prophecy a prophecy. It’s the difference between predicting the winner of the Super Bowl and predicting the outcome of every single play in the game.
He is trying to falsify these prophecies through a worldview he does not understand and critiques the prophecy of Jesus, but does not put in any effort to understand.
I think the author did his fair share of research and explained in a fair and concise manner why he has determined the prophecies failed. What’s the point of a prophecy if all substance from the statement is wrung out of them?
 
Can someone refute this article? It and some others on the website has bothered me.

dbskeptic.com/2011/01/02/bible-prophecies-and-myth/

Thanks
From that article, addressing a few of their points
article:
"Jesus was wrong
Even more astonishingly, a prophecy from the very lips of Jesus himself about the Second Coming of the Son of Man (God’s messianic heavenly agent, i.e. Jesus) failed to materialize. Jesus told his disciples that their generation would see his apocalyptic return before they died.
The Synoptic gospels all relate a common prophecy of Jesus to his disciples: “I tell you this: there are some of those standing here who will not taste death before they have seen the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.” (Matthew 16:28).
When Jesus ,
  • was transfigured Peter John and James witnessed the event. The transfiguration was a manifistation of His glory and His kingdom. Things to come. God the Father spoke to the apostles saying, Jesus is my son…
  • resurrection from the dead? Judas was dead. He didn’t see that. But the other apostles were there to witness His glory. Just as He said He would do before it happened.🙂
  • ascended back to heaven, 11 of the apostles witnessed it.
article continues:
Also, referring to the end times, “I tell you this: the present generation will live to see it all” (Matthew 24:34, Mark 13:30 and Luke 21:32). In response to his disciples’ question of what will be the signs of the end of the age and his coming kingdom, Jesus tells them that there will be wars, famine, earthquakes, persecution, lawlessness, false prophets, the gospel will be proclaimed throughout the world, and the temple destroyed. The Son of Man will then come like lightning, the sun and moon will be darkened, stars will fall from the sky, the celestial powers will be shaken, peoples of the world will lament, and then he will come on the clouds of heaven with great power and glory. With a trumpet blast his angels will gather his chosen ones and he will sit on his throne in judgement, consigning sinners to eternal punishment and the righteous to eternal life (Matthew chapters 24 & 25). Jesus warns his disciples that “when you see all these things, you may know that the end is near, at the very door.” (Matthew 24:33).
all this is interwoven events to come.
  • the crucifixion, where earthquakes happened, tombs were opened, the sky became black, no sun, etc etc
  • 3 days later there was the resurrection of Jesus. And after that His ascension back to heaven. Before this, heaven was closed since Adam. No one could enter. Those who could go to heaven from Adam’s time forward, could go now, those who couldn’t remained in hell.
  • Next, Josephus writes about the Jewish wars, i.e. Rome against the Jews
  • the destruction of Jerusalem by Rome, and particularly the temple in 70 a.d. To the Jew, this was apocolyptic. It was like the end of the world for them. Everything important in their life revolved around the temple. And no stone was left on top of another. It’s all gone. Just as Jesus said. The streets ran red with blood.
  • After that there was famine. And St John is still alive.
  • the old order was gone, the new order and the gospel is spread to the world.
article continues:
Yet Jesus’ Second Coming as he prophesized did not happen. There were no apocalyptic heavenly events in first century Palestine or elsewhere.
Really? :rolleyes:
article continues:
The first century generation, whom he said would see it all happen, died. The end of the world did not occur. Life went on. If the second person of the Holy Trinity could not get it right, what does this say about all the subsequent prophecies about the end times? And what does this say about the reliability of God’s infallible word in the Bible?"
Those with eyes saw and continue to see. But it’s always the old story,

“To one who has faith, no explanation is necessary. To one without faith, no explanation is possible.”
 
Read the biblical quotes again. They’re not saying that Tyre would be severely damaged. It said it would be completely destroyed where it would be like a gleaming rock that fisherman cast nets from. It’s not being nitpicky, just highly inaccurate.

But the verses weren’t discussing the political sense. It was quite clearly discussing physical devestaion. To try and spin it as a political metaphor is to completely forego the plain meaning of words.
  1. The part where he said where it would be like a gleaming rock.
  2. The part where he said it would never be rebuilt. (It doesn’t say never rebuilt to its former glory, but never rebuilt – full stop.)
  3. The part where he said it would never again be inhabited.
Not quite. Quarters falling out of the sky doesn’t happen, whereas cities being attacked and destroyed does happen. A more accurate analogy would be if you predicted I would find a quarter on the street in the next year and that it will be a rare one worth over $1,000 and then I find a regular old 2011 quarter. The probable part happened and the fanciful part didn’t.
biblearchaeology.org/post/2009/12/07/ezekiel-261-14-a-proof-text-for-inerrancy-or-fallibility-of-the-old-testament.aspx#Article I find this article a sufficient defense for Ezekiel’s prophecy. A few additional words, however. Exegesis is everything. The style line which people read and wrote in Biblical times re different than our own. This especially applies to ancient Israel. Poetry and prose are not seen as odd or uncommon in prophecy. It seems to me like you are under the impression that it should read like a newspaper, but that just isn’t how they thought. In any case, the article explains a lot and fills in some of the gaps the other article missed.
Again, read the biblical passages. Mark 13:23-25 says that prior to Jesus’ return the sun will be darkened. the moon will not give light, and the stars will fall from the heavens. Did any of that occur before John died?

But he did. The Tyre prophecy was inaccurate. It would be like predicting a hurricane will hit Florida and that it will sink into the ocean, then claim success when a hurricane hits Florida (as they are wont to do).

To me that comes off as saying there is no thing that can’t be proven correct through proper massaging and redefining of words. I know that’s not what you’re implying at all, but that’s what it sounds like.

Saying the city will never again be inhabited is not a small detail. Saying stars will fall from the sky is not a small detail. It’s these big things that make a prophecy a prophecy. It’s the difference between predicting the winner of the Super Bowl and predicting the outcome of every single play in the game.

I think the author did his fair share of research and explained in a fair and concise manner why he has determined the prophecies failed. What’s the point of a prophecy if all substance from the statement is wrung out of them?
Concerning Mark 13, no John did not die before all that. The passage also says “They” will see-Third-person. verses 24 says “after that tribulation” which creates a break between those prophecies that applied to the Apostles and those that id not (at least, not necessarily).

worldofthebible.com/Bible%20Studies/Historical%20Problems%20for%20a%20First%20Century%20Fulfillment.pdf This also helps the Mark 13:30 also helps address this issue
 
Can someone refute this article? It and some others on the website has bothered me.

dbskeptic.com/2011/01/02/bible-prophecies-and-myth/

Thanks
The guy didn’t read the Ezekiel prophecy very carefully. Several times it says that the prophecy is against “the mainland” – Eze. 26:6, 8 – and didn’t include the island, which is his major bone of contention. In fact a few chapters later, in 29:17-20 it specifically says that Nebuchadnezzar was unable to conquer Tyre, though he did successfully destroy the mainland city, which is what chapter 26 is all about. He distorted the passage too – it doesn’t say it will never again be inhabited. It just says that he will destroy it, so that it won’t be inhabited, and then he will leave and go to war with Egypt. That absolutely came true. He destroyed it, it became uninhabited, and he left for Egypt. After they built new buildings, it was inhabited again, but the prophecy didn’t say anything against that so it’s no problem. The only difficulty is the comment about it never being rebuilt. Perhaps this means the inhabitants did not rebuild the buildings that had fallen and burned, because their material was now unusable, but instead had to build a new city. It doesn’t mean the land was never used to build buildings but that the remaining buildings (after the sack) were never built back up.
 
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