Hard Sayings

[Joysong]

I have been reading the Diary of St. Faustina, and it occurred to me that a lot of the teachings she wrote about, coming from the Lord Himself, are the same as those He taught to other saints, and about which they gave similar advice. However, these were ‘religious’ who were called to a high degree of holiness. How does this pertain to us? What do we gain spiritually by following them?

#1701 Strive to make your heart like unto My humble and gentle heart.
Never claim your rights.
Bear with great calm and patience everything that befalls you.
Do not defend yourself when you are put to shame, though innocent.
Let others triumph.
Do not stop being good when you notice that your goodness is being abused.
I Myself will speak up for you when it is necessary.

#1727 I do not defend myself, but entrust myself all the more to God, who sees within me. And I see how these souls become entangled in their own snares. O God, how just and good You are!

 

[tmango]

I read the diary, too. It tells of living a life totally dedicated to our Lord. It is a lesson of obedience, charity, and humility. It describes the changing of the self to the selfless.

How it pertains to us is as an example to follow in placing all of one’s trust in Jesus. When one places all of their trust in Jesus, they accept His will in their life. They walk in Christ and live in Christ. What we gain spiritually in this trust is peace.

We are all called to holiness and sainthood, but most of us will never know the depth of a union with Jesus, in this life, as she did. She does show the depth of our Lord’s mercy for us and His love for us. What is the gain for us in this trust? Eternity in heaven.

 

[DBT]

Hi Joysong -

Not to digress , but I’ve often struggled with St. Faustina’s Diary and have never been able to make it all the way through. If the “mode” of communication between God and her soul was through vision, revelation, locution and the like (and I’m not sure it is) how do we square that with St. John’s teaching to largely ignore such things?

Unfortunately, I’ve never been able to get past that . . .

Thanks!
Dave.

PS - She reminds me so much of St. Teresa and her mystical encounters described in “Her Life.”

 

[Joysong]

DBT:

PS - She reminds me so much of St. Teresa and her mystical encounters described in “Her Life.”

Hi Dave,

I was specifically thinking about St. Teresa, for she was a firm believer in not excusing oneself in self-defense. When I read this in the Diary, I recalled Teresa’s words and wondered how others have possibly embraced this teaching, and what they learned in the process.

As for the mystical encounters, I’m not sure how she handled them as per St. John’s teachings, but since I am still reading the Diary, I will look more closely at her treatment of this. Obviously, the locutions regarding Divine Mercy were authentic besides being prophetic, and the Church recognized this when the Feast Day was universally proclaimed.

how do we square that with St. John’s teaching to largely ignore such things?

I don’t believe St. John meant to exclusively “ignore such things” or he and St. Teresa would not have spent a good deal of time teaching us to discern when these were from God, ourselves, or the evil one. What I find in his warnings was to be detached from them, not to desire them, and to cling to the darkness of faith.

If they are from God and give specific instructions, I cannot think we should simply ignore them, but should act responsibly so they are not a detriment to one’s spirituality.

Agree?

 

[InLight247]

Hi Joysong -

Not to digress , but I’ve often struggled with St. Faustina’s Diary and have never been able to make it all the way through. If the “mode” of communication between God and her soul was through vision, revelation, locution and the like (and I’m not sure it is) how do we square that with St. John’s teaching to largely ignore such things?

Unfortunately, I’ve never been able to get past that . . .

Thanks!
Dave.

PS - She reminds me so much of St. Teresa and her mystical encounters described in “Her Life.”

Can we say that God leads each individual in a unique way?

While St. John’s teaching of no image, no form, no vision is part of the journey to union, St. Faustina was given vivid visions, revelations, and conversations with the Lord.

God levels with each one the way that person is, and how the person is made of.
While someone has to go through total darkness and nakedness to get to the light, God may bath another in His light with a unique way as He will.

Just my thinking. I read St. Faustina way before reading St. John.

 

[DBT]

As for the mystical encounters, I’m not sure how she handled them as per St. John’s teachings, but since I am still reading the Diary, I will look more closely at her treatment of this.

OK, I’m getting greedy now thinking you might be able to help me get over this stumbling block with St. Faustina AND help me with a formation question that I’m having difficulty with

Is it possible the mode of communication was not so much visions and locutions but, maybe, more like St. John’s description of a “touch?” If so, this would clear up a lot of things for me!

Sorry again if I digress . . .

Dave

 

[Joysong]

By way of added reflection, I have noted in Jesus’s words a seemingly similar teaching, but how do we live it?

If a man forces you to go one mile, go willingly with him two miles.
If a man takes your cloak, give him your tunic as well.

These teachings from Christ and some of His saints are very difficult to grasp and put into practice. Certainly saints have done so, and it won precious graces for them, even though their persecutors thought they were victorious.

1 Pt. 2:23, "When He was reviled, did not revile, when He suffered, did not threaten, but yielded himself to him who judged him unjustly.

 

[water]

However, these were ‘religious’ who were called to a high degree of holiness. How does this pertain to us? What do we gain spiritually by following them?

A lay person can follow them and become holy as those Saints. One who follows such examples can become, if not totally holy, but at least: (see my comment below)

#1701 Strive to make your heart like unto My humble and gentle heart.

• less prideful.

Never claim your rights.

• deny himself in dealing with others.

Bear with great calm and patience everything that befalls you.
Do not defend yourself when you are put to shame, though innocent.
Let others triumph.

• less hot temper.

Do not stop being good when you notice that your goodness is being abused.
I Myself will speak up for you when it is necessary.

• more courage and trusting in God.

#1727 I do not defend myself, but entrust myself all the more to God, who sees within me. And I see how these souls become entangled in their own snares. O God, how just and good You are!

• more patience.

 

[Joysong]

Dave,

I need to reflect a bit on this regarding St. Faustina, and I will get back to you. Your concerns are very “carmelite,” understandably!

I have noticed as I become more mature spiritually, that God speaks not so much in locutions, but rather in that still small voice that transmits as a thought. It coincides with what St. Paul and St. John taught about the spiritual man judges all things.

For example, I had been active in a discussion and received an ever-so-fleeting thought that quickened my spirit, that I had digressed from despising the sin, to despising the sinner. I heard no words per se, but instantly I knew the mind of the Lord. That week I went to confession and resolved to “avoid all occasions of sin” by not permitting myself to enter these discussions. I felt it was a matter of obedience to the inspiration I just “knew” was from God.

I would believe you have received many of these in your walk with Christ, so you may understand what I’m trying to say. But I will think about it some more, as I promised.

Carole

 

[ncjohn]

There is an angle to all of this that concerns me. I do my best to humbly allow others to have their way, and are probably often taken advantage of for my effort. And in my better moments I can sometimes even let abuse slide by without comment, or with a response of kindness.

But the question becomes one of when one stops being humble and begins to be an “enabler” by allowing one’s goodness to be abused. Thinking specifically in terms of addicts, is it being advised here to continue to enable their behavior? Or to allow those who act like petulant children to continue in their ways? I have never considered these types of things to be “kindness” for it keeps another from their own responsibility and growth.

Perhaps though, the statement “I Myself will speak up for you when it is necessary” is the key. That if we just endure silently, God will indeed speak where the necessary correction is needed, and the person on the receiving end is ready for it.

I consider what must have been going on in the minds of those who were told to just march around Jericho blowing trumpets. “Uhh, yeah, right Lord. I’ll blow my trumpet until they surrender.”

Getting to the level of trust to do the totally counter-intuitive is indeed a great leap of holiness. But quite frankly, until a whole lot of us are ready and willing to do so, not much is likely to change and we’ll continue in the “eye for an eye” mode.

Sure wish I wasn’t so darn weak.

 

[MarieVeronica]

Lay Persons (you and me!) are also called to a high degree of holiness. If you can, please research the life of St. Gianna Beretta Molla. She is a wonderful example of a holy life… lived as a lay person.

In short… what we can gain by adherence to Our Lord’s teachings… is holiness… and the inheritance of Heaven! God bless.

 

[Joysong]

Ncjohn,

You raise a matter that I have labored over in conscience many, many times. The saints who proposed this lived in a religious community, so the issues you raise were not something they had to contend with.

However, I do find that they were polished like diamonds through the sufferings they endured from the religious in their community, and also from Superiors who were sometimes abusive.

Are we required to be vindicators in order not to be enablers? This is probably my most difficult spiritual matter to find an answer for when my battles are overwhelming. How to cope in a way the Lord would be pleased, and the neighbor would benefit?

Perhaps though, the statement “I Myself will speak up for you when it is necessary” is the key. That if we just endure silently, God will indeed speak where the necessary correction is needed, and the person on the receiving end is ready for it.

That really requires a lot of trust, doesn’t it.
Today’s first reading was a good example I suppose, for David used a simple stone to slay the Phillistine, because God was with him, and David trusted God to deliver him from a very serious conflict.

 

[DBT]

I have noticed as I become more mature spiritually, that God speaks not so much in locutions, but rather in that still small voice that transmits as a thought.

And . . .

I heard no words per se, but instantly I knew the mind of the Lord.

Yes, this is precisely the type of thing I’m thinking if I understand a “touch” (and I’m not sure that I do).

I see it not so much as an inflaming of the will like in the “early days” of contemplation but rather an inflaming of the intellect that I suspect happens as we mature in this way. I think of it as after the silence of our prayer we don’t remain in darkness about the communication we know took place there; rather, we are given some glimpse or “knowledge” of what actually transpired. Like the scales being removed from our eyes about some aspect of Christ and our relationship with him.

St. John says these touches are to be greatly prized, placing them in a different “category,” so to speak, from visions, locutions and the like.

Oh well, none of this really matters to this thread anyway and I’m probably being way to analytical . . . it’s just something that’s been bugging me

Dave

 

[TOP]

I fell in love with St. Faustina when I read her diary. I have no doubt she has interceded for me as the secretary of divine mercy. Remember, she had on the job training for this appointment while on earth. Not to be a hindance of any kind to others path and access to this mercy. I think she realized that even a persecuter was on a path. Hers is a story of intervention. Tim

 

[Joysong]

I see it not so much as an inflaming of the will like in the “early days” of contemplation but rather an inflaming of the intellect that I suspect happens as we mature in this way.

Dave,

I still need to do some research, but I had a thought that seemed good to share in the meanwhile.

St. John taught that God accommodates Himself to the spirituality of the individual according to their mode of readiness and capacity to receive pure spirit. In the beginning, locutions may be auditory and external until the person is readied for more spiritual communications. The same for visions.

Since God is Spirit, as we become enabled to receive purer touches of Spirit to spirit, similar to the way angels communicate maybe, these will be received like a ray of infused knowledge that has no need of words. One just ‘catches’ the mind of the Lord in a momentary flash that quickly understands.

A married couple of many years will often communicate with a simple look, and the spouse who views it knows pretty much what the other means without having to say a single word.

Maybe this is the reason for the cautionary stance St. John takes, because the “thought” … while being the essence of pure communication … needs to be translated into human language in order to convey it. Sometimes that’s exactly where the mystic may err.

We who read their words though, can rely on the Spirit to convict us interiorly about the content. And this is what I am finding as I read them. Her words pierce my heart and seem to recognize that God says this to ME, too. Otheriwse, they would just be printed rhetoric, huh?

Incidentally, for those following along, there is a transition from the early days when these lights were received with much joy so that God could show us it was from Him. These are later received so much more quietly that one will not recognize His hand at first because they are not wrapped in the same paper.

 

[Joysong]

Marie Veronica:

Lay Persons (you and me!) are also called to a high degree of holiness. If you can, please research the life of St. Gianna Beretta Molla. She is a wonderful example of a holy life… lived as a lay person.

Marie, can you share examples from this saint’s life that will give light to us “lay persons” to embrace the so-called hard sayings? Did you see anything in her life that coincides with St. Faustina’s words in the OP?

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Joysong

Darn, just when I thought I was making progress, this comes along!

Never claim your rights.

I fight for my rights, even when I’m wrong.

Jim

 

[Joysong]

Hello Water,

Your answers to all of Christ’s directions in the OP suggested that these were a protection for us in order to maintain our peaceful serenity and conquer our natural tendency to inflict eye for eye and tooth for tooth in self-defense. Most of the time, we over do it, and take out too many teeth.

Jack Hayford gave a wonderful teaching on TV Sunday night, born out of some very personal and severe persecution. He said that the best recourse is not to retaliate in aggression to those who oppose us, nor is it ever a good thing to be passive and seethe inwardly with bitter resentment . . . but to simply leave difficult matters in God’s hands to work it all out for our good.

But I also remember that the serenity prayer teaches us to “change the things we can.” Maybe that’s the balancing tightrope we straddle until the day we see that it is not possible to effect any good changes. In that case we let go and let God.

Have you tried some of those hard sayings and found that they were the perfect solution for you?

 

[water]

Have you tried some of those hard sayings and found that they were the perfect solution for you?

Yes, I have tried this when conversing with users here on CAF, but today I’ve also just failed one great opportunity with my co-worker whom I was discussing with on a specific thing but her answer was totally off topic - My disappointment showed and I got her irritated. I just sent an email to apologyze.

 

[Joysong]

DBT:

Is it possible the mode of communication was not so much visions and locutions but, maybe, more like St. John’s description of a “touch?” If so, this would clear up a lot of things for me!

I did find in #1069 of her Diary, where St. Faustina asked Jesus not to appear to her, since her confessor was afraid she might be under illusion. He agreed to withhold them until she spoke with her confessor, giving him an account of Jesus’s words to her regarding this.

It is hard to know when she writes, “He said to me . . .” under what form she received the communication spiritually. And in other messages, she wrote, “I heard a voice in my soul . . .”
All we simply know is that she was ordered to write.

I saw several messages that were rather lengthly, and due to the time lapse from her duties at the convent until she transcribed the words, one might believe that the form of reception was more of an intellectual ‘knowing’ rather than a word-for-word actual translation. I would not want to enter into passing judgment on them.

Dave, you know well how St. Teresa had many, many visions, both intellectual and imaginative, plus the interior words she often heard. I’m not fully understanding how you accept these, yet seem to have a difficult time with St. Faustina’s? Can you p(name removed by moderator)oint what seems to hold you back? Does it seem that she is not fully rejecting them in the manner that St. John recommends?

In Christ,
Carole