Hard Sayings

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Joysong:
It is hard to know when she writes, “He said to me . . .” under what form she received the communication spiritually. And in other messages, she wrote, “I heard a voice in my soul . . .” All we simply know is that she was ordered to write.
I agree and at the end of the day the important thing is “what” she had to say more so than “how” and in “what manner” these messages might have been received.
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Joysong:
one might believe that the form of reception was more of an intellectual ‘knowing’ rather than a word-for-word actual translation.
And this gets to the heart of the matter for me. The “problem” I was having doesn’t have anything to do with St. Faustina and whether or not she followed St. John’s counsels; rather it was another one of those pesky terminology issues. And you know how I have a tendancy to view all this stuff as so many puzzle pieces . . . figuring out how all the writings of the Saints “fit” together is a big part of where I’m at right now:o Sometimes the answers are clear cut . . . other times not so much.

Somehow St. John’s depiction of touches in Ascent Chapter 26 “seemed” in my mind “how” many of these type of communications might have taken place. And it wasn’t until I re-read this chapter a little while ago that I realized a touch, in the context of this chapter, is probably the very same intellectual vision St. Teresa describes at such length in the 6th and 7th dwelling of Interior Castle. So now it all “fits” again and I’m better now. 😃

Sorry for the diversion . . . back to our regularily scheduled programming. 🙂

Thanks!
Dave.
 
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JimR-OCDS:
Darn, just when I thought I was making progress, this comes along!
Quote:
Never claim your rights.
I fight for my rights, even when I’m wrong.
Are you ready for this one, Jim? http://bestsmileys.com/lol/4.gif

I saw in #1685 this “hard saying,” too . . .

Give away everything at the first sign of a demand, even if they were the most necessary things.
Allow them to take away even what is due you — respect, your good name — let your spirit rise above all that.
And so, set free from everything, rest close to My heart not allowing your peace to be disturbed by anything.

As I read the last sentence, it makes sense now where God was leading her, and any who feel called to follow. When we are detached in spirit from EVERYTHING that men usually find troublesome, we are free to rest in the Lord.
 
Joysong

I saw in #1685 this “hard saying,” too . . .

Give away everything at the first sign of a demand, even if they were the most necessary things.

This seems to fly in the face of the spirit of poverty, where we’re to be detached, but it doesn’t call for us to put ourselves into destitution, in order to bring someone else out of destitution, for then, they would be called to do the same for us, anyway.

Jim​
 
JimR:
This seems to fly in the face of the spirit of poverty, where we’re to be detached, but it doesn’t call for us to put ourselves into destitution.
I agree, Jim. It seems specific for religious who live in community, and have nothing they call their own. St. Therese used the word, “OUR cell …” because they knew all things were held in common.

This is why I posted the question originally, to learn how we as lay persons should interpret these, for I find that Christ’s guidance in the beatitudes can be hard to understand. I just wonder how many people took these hard sayings to heart, lived them, and can come to us on this thread and give witness. 🤷

We know St. Francis did.

And we know that the “rich young man” could not.

If God were to test us in a very serious matter, how willingly would we be able to let the other person have what is rightfully ours? [Even if we only make the disconnect in our mind, so we can be detached and remain in peace.]
 
I agree, Jim. It seems specific for religious who live in community, and have nothing they call their own. St. Therese used the word, “OUR cell …” because they knew all things were held in common.

This is why I posted the question originally, to learn how we as lay persons should interpret these, for I find that Christ’s guidance in the beatitudes can be hard to understand. I just wonder how many people took these hard sayings to heart, lived them, and can come to us on this thread and give witness. 🤷

We know St. Francis did.

And we know that the “rich young man” could not.

If God were to test us in a very serious matter, how willingly would we be able to let the other person have what is rightfully ours? [Even if we only make the disconnect in our mind, so we can be detached and remain in peace.]
In his book, ,
" Happy Are the Poor: The Simple Life and Spiritual Freedom,"
Father Thomas Dubay, he teaches how we should read this. He talks about the extremes of St. Francis.

I need to re-view this book, for its been a while since I’ve read it, and in my senior moment, don’t remember the details. 🙂

Jim
 
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Joysong:
This is why I posted the question originally, to learn how we as lay persons should interpret these
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Joysong:
Give away everything at the first sign of a demand, even if they were the most necessary things.
Allow them to take away even what is due you — respect, your good name — let your spirit rise above all that. And so, set free from everything, rest close to My heart not allowing your peace to be disturbed by anything.
Well I’ll take a stab at how this layperson “sees” how a passage like this written by a religious can be applied to my life 🙂

First, I focus on the last sentence - “not allowing your peace to be disturbed by anything.” For me, I find this most often happens when I rely to much on myself . . . when my thoughts, my needs, my wants, my goals, my desires figure to prominately in my mind. For me, peace just seems to flow like a river when I acknowlede these needs in my mind but leave the outcome of it all to God. Trust and abandonment, even in our little layperson ways 🙂 , are the road to peace. To much self-reliance, as I believe St. Therese learned early on, is to heavy a burden bear for ultimately we learn we can’t do it but God can when operating through us. For me, loss of peace comes from losing sight of that.

So what is it that a layperson can “give away” to gain that peace? Well, like the Saints and religious, we can learn to “become silent to self” – a theme I’ve talked about alot on this forum lately. This can take many, many forms but mostly it has to do with little acts of detachment and self-denial repeated throughout the day about the types of things mentioned above.

Regarding the specific “hard sayings” St. Faustina mentions to “give away”, well obviously we as laypersons can’t give away the same way a religious might. I think now to how Fr. de Cussade defines finding God’s will in “Abandonment to Divine Providence.” He is totally focused in his presentation to the needs of the present moment as it relates to the duties of our state in life. For me, these duties are as husband, father and business owner.

In this light, reputation, honor, good name and so on are important and necessary to the degree in which they aid in the fulfillment of my duties to those entrusted to me. So I think this takes on a different slant for a layperson compared to a religious.

For example, I find there are many, many times I need to defend myself in some way to convey matters of right and wrong to my kids. And since I find it is best to lead/teach by example more so than through words, reputation is important because it is the reflection of how my kids see how well I’m doing. If I were to disregard all that, then I think I’d fail in my principal duties toward my kids. And in a similar vein, one of the best pieces of advice my priest gave me to help discern how well I’m handling things at home is to ask myself “what does your wife think?” And isn’t this just another way of saying good name, respect etc?

And these issues are equally important in the business world. Clients want to work with business partners they know and trust . . . and this, of course, is heavily based in perceptions of reputation. Again, if I were to “give that away” and no longer be concerned about it, then I’d be violating one of the key responsibilities of my state in life.

The key in all of this, I guess, is not to defend myself simply because my pride got pricked and I feel the need to assert myself over someone. Rather, I must “sense” in some way that the self defense is important to protect the interests of those entrusted to me, always trying to do what is right as determined by my concience at that point in time.

Don’t know if that makes sense at all, but it’s what came to mind 🙂

Dave.
 
Originally by** DBT**
The key in all of this, I guess, is not to defend myself simply because my pride got pricked and I feel the need to assert myself over someone. Rather, I must “sense” in some way that the self defense is important to protect the interests of those entrusted to me, always trying to do what is right as determined by my conscience at that point in time.
What you said above is right on.

Didn’t Jesus tell us to be as pure as a dove but also as shrewd as a snake?

Saints’ teachings are good for sure. But I believe certain revelations are specifically to their circumstances. There are logo(general revelation applies to all) and rhema(not sure of spelling, it means a specific word to a specific person). Certain revelations could be a specific rhema to the Saint and the Saint just recorded them, not necessarily to apply it to all.

I remember once I asked my SD about Brother Lawrence’s thinking about not asking for healing or ease of pain if one was sick. SD said back to the time of Brother Lawrence, the medical knowledge was different from today.

We can read the Saints’ writings and take them as our model.
That does not mean we take their words literally for every saying.
 
InLight:
There are logo (general revelation applies to all) and rhema (not sure of spelling, it means a specific word to a specific person).
I’m so glad you mentioned this, InLight! It has been a number of years since I heard this teaching, and it is so important to distinguish the difference. In mentioning St. Francis above, I believe his call to embrace poverty was a “rhema” for him alone, and any whom the Lord called to follow his way of life, like St. Clare.

I’m really grateful these matters are being openly discussed here, because St. Faustina’s Diary is read by many souls due to the increase in devotion to the Divine Mercy. It could be easy to go out of spiritual balance. Similarly, the focus in the *Imitation of Christ *creates a potential problem for people who read the classic, since it was written for monastics, not the laity; however, many of the teachings in that holy book would apply to both. We need to be cautious.

As we pray over our spiritual reading, it is good to be alert for the help of the Lord as to whether these teachings were solely for St. Faustina or whether some of them might apply to ourselves.
 
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DBT:
The key in all of this, I guess, is not to defend myself simply because my pride got pricked and I feel the need to assert myself over someone.
MOTIVE is EVERYTHING, huh Dave?

Purity of intention is the only essence that makes every thought, word or deed acceptable to God. Amen!
 
I remember once I asked my SD about Brother Lawrence’s thinking about not asking for healing or ease of pain if one was sick. SD said back to the time of Brother Lawrence, the medical knowledge was different from today.
And another one of his “hard ones” that most likely was only meant for him was all the times he mentioned giving up all spiritual devotions to perpetually “practice the presence of God.” Eventhough Brother Lawrence is my namesake in Carmel and one of my principal spiritual guides, I’ve never been able to pull the trigger on that one. 🙂

Dave
 
MOTIVE is EVERYTHING, huh Dave?

Purity of intention is the only essence that makes every thought, word or deed acceptable to God. Amen!
Ah yes, how it all always comes back to purity of intention 🙂 And I love your statement of every thought, every word, every deed for that too is the foundation of it all.

Dave.
 
And another one of his (Brother Lawrence) “hard ones” that most likely was only meant for him was all the times he mentioned giving up all spiritual devotions to perpetually “practice the presence of God.”
. . . and here’s how I learned the lesson of this “rhema” Inlight mentions and getting out of balance as Joysong describes.

For a long time now I’ve felt “called” to pray my rosary on my morning commute, the Chaplet of St. Therese on my evening commute and silently wandering the halls of my office at 3PM interiorly praying the Divine Mercy. My purpose, obviously, has never been to pray these devotions contemplatively; rather they are prayed in an intercessory manner . . . expressly offered for whoever I happen to pass along the way. Many times I’ve felt my eyes drawn to a specific car on the highway thinking they might be in need of prayer.

Anyway . . .

A couple of weeks ago I felt the urge to more closely emulate Brother Lawrence and drop these devotions just as he did. After all, I thought, wouldn’t practicing the presence of God at these times in lieu of active devotion achieve the same effect? Didn’t the author of the Cloud of Unkowning say all interior prayer is implicitly offered for the good of all even if not verbalized or thought of in that way?

Maybe so, but this change just didn’t “feel” right. While practicing the presence of God is probably my principal way of prayer, it just “seemed” like I’m meant to practice these other devotions in the manner I’ve been “taught” to do them.

Like you said earlier, Joysong, it was a matter of trying to remain faithful to a strong inspiration - even if it meant not following Brother Lawrence in the manner I might have liked if choosing own my own.

Dave. 🙂
 
I believe in balance. Like eating, we need vegetables, fruits, proteins and grains.

No matter how much I love the prayer of simplicity and simply remain quiet in solitude with the Lord, I have to have my daily devotions and intercessory prayers. There was a period of time I was so eager to be done with my all four mysteries of daily rosaries so I can have quiet time just “being with” the Lord. Then I realized actually rosaries help me with the peace of mind and bring me closer to God. They are help not hindrance to my recollection. The mentality of rushing them through to make room for contemplative prayers is actually a disservice to the prayer of recollection.
 
InLight's link at EWTN:
You may make the decision not to defend yourself (to turn the other cheek) when acting in a private capacity. But you don’t have that right where the safety of others has been entrusted to you – as a parent, policeman, or soldier – where the common good demands active defense.
This is understandable and I think we would all agree with active defense in these situations. I was thinking about the more subtle and private situations, where someone outside of our control, and in deliberate vengence, spreads to all who will listen a smear campaign that damages our good name. What then? I don’t see that we have a choice to follow this person around and give our version of the story, in order to redeem our reputation.

Hard that it may be for us to remain in peace and let God handle it, I sometimes fight my inclination to excuse myself and set the story straight. The most poignant example I have ever read was when St. Gerard Majella was maligned by a vicious woman who spread calumny against him … and he was SILENT! Whew! His superior, St. Ambrose, knowing his holy piety, had a difficult time repressing the fact that it may be true! Two wonderful saints, each being tried severely over another’s vicious lie.

In the end, the liar admitted the truth as she was dying, and he was cleared. Could his extreme suffering have been permitted by God for a higher purpose, such as quietly redeeming many souls through the cross he carried? No doubt also, he will have a crown of glory for his heroic virtue in bearing this.
 
Just the other day, my best friend told me something related to what this thread is discussing.

She was misunderstood by XX due to what XX’s wife said. As the result of this misunderstanding, my friend was greatly persecuted by XX in their business partnership.
The reason she did not explain or clarify was to protect XX’s wife in their already troubled marriage. I feel sorry for what has happened to my friend. But that was my friend’s choice, to silently endure persecution for the protection of another. Would God turn things around for my friend? I surly hope so. I believe so.

I don’t think there is a universal rule of handling such situations. We just have to use our best judgment and discernment to do the right thing. We can only follow our conscience and the leading of the Holy Spirit.
 
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