Hard time explaining Carven Images

[VociMike]

5 full pages is a concise answer? i understand that a similar question is asked before (do some people not like the statues and images) but that is not my question, mine is why is it necessary to cut it so close, inasmuch that it needs to be exhaustively explained to everyone at some point and even keeps some people away from the Church?

Because we are human, and humans benefit from such aids. That’s why we’ve been making art about important things since we lived in caves. It is part of what we are, and it is also part of what God is (and we are made in his image).

Just because people who have been raised to believe heresies might object to Catholic practices is no reason to change those Catholic practices. The Catholic faith should not be pared down to some lowest-common-denominator, “offend the smallest number” skeleton. If the faith is true then we should not be ashamed of it it all its fullness.

 

[cascherman]

If we didn’t pray in Church at all, we could avoid “cutting things so close.”

Wait—if we didn’t GO to Church, still better…

Hang on! If we didn’t BUILD any Churches, even better…

You do see the danger of blowing one very valid concern up into the ONLY concern, don’t you?

so your argument here is that without these statues and pictures we cannot pray? So, me being an RCIA Catholic who has never used the images or pictures for prayer has actually never prayed?

I am not arguing to get rid of these things, I have great confidence that out there there is a perfect answer to my question.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

I am not arguing to get rid of these things, I have great confidence that out there there is a perfect answer to my question.

Like this one:

? on images

 

[Ani_Ibi]

5 full pages is a concise answer? i understand that a similar question is asked before (do some people not like the statues and images) but that is not my question, mine is why is it necessary to cut it so close, inasmuch that it needs to be exhaustively explained to everyone at some point and even keeps some people away from the Church?

and so far with the answers i have gotten i am understanding much better, but I’m still looking for that answer that answers the soul of my question. In bold above.

Many of the posts on that thread were a quibble or they were pictures.

It does not have to be exhaustively explained to anyone. In fact the images in the Church were for the benefit primarily of the illiterate and the poor who had no time for exhaustive explanations.

Do you believe that compromising on Magisterial Truth is going to swell our parishes? If so, then you are wrong. It is where doctrine is most clear that the numbers of vocations rises. And where doctrine is compromised that the numbers of vocations falls. So much for your theory.

You keep on asking for your question to be answered, yet you make no effort to access the answers when they have been offered to you. Waddupwidat?

 

[VociMike]

I’ve been doing a little more thinking about your “cutting it so close” image.

It’s true, Catholicism can and does “cut it close”. Why? Because we have the ultimate safety gear - the guidance and protection of God. No matter how close to error some practice may appear to an outsider, the Church cannot “color outside the lines”.

In life, who is it who “cuts it close” and gets away with it? It is those who are most highly trained, who have the most skill and experience. They do the stuff which we are told “don’t try this at home!” because they are the experts. And they “cut it close” because in some sense, that’s the best, the ultimate, the epitome of whatever “it” might be in each case.

Similarly, the Church can allow (and even encourage) things that might lead an outsider into error, but a Catholic who is well-formed in the faith will never be led into error by those things. Well-formed Catholics gain all the benefits of “cutting it close” in their faith lives, with none of the dangers. They gain all the beauty, truth, depth and spiritual nourishment, without any of the dangers. They don’t have to spend their spiritual lives in the wading pool tied to an inflatable life ring. They can experience a breadth and depth of faith that e.g. Protestants, or those of any other faith, simply cannot know.

 

[cascherman]

it reaaaaally bothers you that I’m not perusing through the 5 pages of that other thread on my lunch break to find my exact question and answer?

 

[cascherman]

I’ve been doing a little more thinking about your “cutting it so close” image.

It’s true, Catholicism can and does “cut it close”. Why? Because we have the ultimate safety gear - the guidance and protection of God. No matter how close to error some practice may appear to an outsider, the Church cannot “color outside the lines”.

In life, who is it who “cuts it close” and gets away with it? It is those who are most highly trained, who have the most skill and experience. They do the stuff which we are told “don’t try this at home!” because they are the experts. And they “cut it close” because in some sense, that’s the best, the ultimate, the epitome of whatever “it” might be in each case.

Similarly, the Church can allow (and even encourage) things that might lead an outsider into error, but a Catholic who is well-formed in the faith will never be led into error by those things. Well-formed Catholics gain all the benefits of “cutting it close” in their faith lives, with none of the dangers. They gain all the beauty, truth, depth and spiritual nourishment, without any of the dangers. They don’t have to spend their spiritual lives in the wading pool tied to an inflatable life ring. They can experience a breadth and depth of faith that e.g. Protestants, or those of any other faith, simply cannot know.

vocimike, THANK YOU for having patience with me and really attempting to get to the meat of my question. THAT is a great answer, and I knew it was out there.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

In life, who is it who “cuts it close” and gets away with it? It is those who are most highly trained, who have the most skill and experience…
Similarly, the Church can allow (and even encourage) things that might lead an outsider into error, but a Catholic who is well-formed in the faith will never be led into error by those things…

Here are some comments which differentiate graven images from teaching tools and from prayers:
brotherrholf:

What is forgotten by the reformers after the invention of the printing press, was that the medieval art work was a primary means of evangelization before that time. All of those “images” could be used to tell the story.

Caesar:

Quite true. In the middle ages, art was the average layman’s book. One could learn the life of and teachings of Christ and the lives of the Saints and more through sacred art, assisted by the powerful symbolism that existed throughout art (even the placement of the figures in art held great symbolic meaning).

Pani Rose:

The Seventh Ecumenical Council is the reason we can have icons… While God cannot be represented in His eternal nature… He can be depicted simply because He became human and took flesh. Of Him who took a material body, material images can be made.

In so taking a material body, God proved that matter can be redeemed. He deified matter, making it spirit-bearing, and so if flesh can be a medium for the Spirit, so can wood or paint, although in a different fashion. I do not worship matter, but the Creator of matter, who for my sake became material and deigned to dwell in matter, who through matter effected my salvation… – St. John of Damascus link

savedsinner:

An icon is not a “painting”, it is more of a “visual prayer”. When a iconographer (painter of icons) is commissioned to “pray” an icon. they go into deep meditation before they even begin, and it is a continual prayer until it is finished.

continued…

 

[Ani_Ibi]

…The Protestant Reformation induced a wave of iconoclasm, or the destruction of religious imagery. Many Protestant sects regarded the display of religious images as idolatry, especially sculpture and large paintings. Book illustrations and prints were more acceptable, because smaller and more private…

…Huldrych Zwingli and John Calvin, actively eliminated imagery from churches within their following. As a result in… northern Europe… the church was entirely removed from the circle of art patronage…

…Martin Luther, in Germany, allowed for the display of religious imagery in churches so long as viewers were reminded that images are symbolic of the divine, and are not holy in themselves… [Moreover] there was a conscious effort to develop a Protestant iconography of Bible illustration in book illustrations and prints…

…In the early Reformation artists, especially both Cranachs, and Holbein made paintings for churches showing the leaders of the reformation in ways very similar to Catholic saints…

…The decrees of the Council of Trent stipulated that art was to be direct and compelling in its narrative presentation, that is was to provide an accurate presentation of the biblical narrative or saint’s life, rather than adding incidental and imaginary moments, and that it was to encourage piety… link

continued…

 

[Ani_Ibi]

Here are some links which hopefully might enlarge your knowledge of Sacred Art:

Ecclesiastical Art

A Gospel in Stone: Notre Dame de Paris and the Three Natural Laws of Church Architecture

Statues in Church

Art Renewal Centre

Idolatry …An essential difference exists between idolatry and the veneration of images practised in the Catholic Church…

While the idolater credits the image he reverences with Divinity or Divine powers, the Catholic knows… that the honour which is given to them is referred to the objects (prototypa) which they represent…

Through the images… we adore Christ and venerate the Saints… (Conc. Trid., Sess. XXV, “de invocatione Sanctorum”).

continued…

 

[Ani_Ibi]

…St. Gregory the Great… writes to an Iconoclast bishop, Serenus of Marseilles, who had destroyed the images in his diocese: "Not without reason has antiquity allowed the stories of saints to be painted in holy places. And we indeed entirely praise thee for not allowing them to be adored, but we blame thee for breaking them.

For it is one thing to adore an image, it is quite another thing to learn from the appearance of a picture what we must adore. What books are to those who can read, that is a picture to the ignorant who look at it; in a picture even the unlearned may see what example they should follow; in a picture they who know no letters may yet read. link

continued…

 

[Ani_Ibi]

LETTER OF HIS HOLINESS
POPE JOHN PAUL II
TO ARTISTS

What is the difference between “creator” and “craftsman”? The one who creates bestows being itself, he brings something out of nothing—ex nihilo sui et subiecti, as the Latin puts it—and this, in the strict sense, is a mode of operation which belongs to the Almighty alone. The craftsman, by contrast, uses something that already exists, to which he gives form and meaning…

That is why artists, the more conscious they are of their “gift”, are led all the more to see themselves and the whole of creation with eyes able to contemplate and give thanks, and to raise to God a hymn of praise. This is the only way for them to come to a full understanding of themselves, their vocation and their mission…

It is one thing for human beings to be the authors of their own acts, with responsibility for their moral value; it is another to be an artist, able, that is, to respond to the demands of art and faithfully to accept art’s specific dictates…

Every genuine artistic intuition goes beyond what the senses perceive and, reaching beneath reality’s surface, strives to interpret its hidden mystery… If the intimate reality of things is always “beyond” the powers of human perception, how much more so is God in the depths of his unfathomable mystery!.. The icon is venerated not for its own sake, but points beyond to the subject which it represents…

Beauty is a key to the mystery and a call to transcendence. It is an invitation to savour life and to dream of the future. That is why the beauty of created things can never fully satisfy. It stirs that hidden nostalgia for God which a lover of beauty like Saint Augustine could express in incomparable terms: “Late have I loved you, beauty so old and so new: late have I loved you!”

continued…

 

[Ani_Ibi]

Pani Rose:

Allow me to post a few things that would do far better than I. Also, if you like go to my site linked at the bottom under my signature. Beside each icon is a bit of it’s history. Also, the icons titled ‘Theology in Color’ give you the Scripture they are about. But, anyway, hopefully these article will help which are also on there.

agapeicons.com/images/sit…height. max=0

If art is the organization of materials, the Roman Catholic Church is among the most imposing masterpieces of history. Through nineteen centuries, each heavy with crisis, she has held her faithful together, following them with her ministrations to the ends of the earth, forming their minds, molding their morals, encouraging their fertility, solemnizing their marriages, consoling their bereavements, lifting their momentary lives into eternal drama, harvesting their gifts, surviving every heresy and revolt, and patiently building again every broken support of her power.

(Will Durant, Story of Civilization: The Age of Faith [volume 4, 1950], page 44)

 

[Ani_Ibi]

it reaaaaally bothers you that I’m not perusing through the 5 pages of that other thread on my lunch break to find my exact question and answer?

No it doesn’t bother me. I think it is your loss not mine to decline to retrieve the answer to your question when it has been freely offered to you.



What bothers me is that you call 5 pages what is actually less than 2 pages and that a few posts on those less than 2 pages answer your question; yet, rather than taking a few minutes to read a variety of answers to your question, you have decided to declare that your question is not answered!



The only folks who will be driven off by Christian art btw are those who don’t bother trying to find out what it was really about in the times and places in which this art was created, choosing instead to impose a 21st C Western affluent literate educated point of view on something created and built up over many different centuries and cultures for poor illiterate and uneducated Christians – so that they may know the Gospel.

In other words those who see nothing wrong in reader-response fallacy are in danger of being driven off by Christian art.

For the sake of those lurkers who may be interested, I have posted some items from that other thread above.

 

[VociMike]

vocimike, THANK YOU for having patience with me and really attempting to get to the meat of my question. THAT is a great answer, and I knew it was out there.

In turn, I appreciate the new insight that your question allowed me to form. Catholicism can truly be “exhilarating”, spiritually and even physically, in a manner that no other faith can be, because it has the fullness of truth, and because it is guided by God. In fact, there is a phrase which has been used since the early Church, which is that as Catholics we worship God in “sober inebriation”. That is a phrase worthy of long and deep contemplation, and I think it ties in with your notion of “cutting it close”.

 

[jkatpc]

After you restated your original question, I got to thinking. First, I don’t believe we cut it close; in fact, there is a huge gulf between our use of icons, statues and images as focusing agents in prayer, and a pagan-like use of them as items of actual worship. Perhaps some non-Catholic/non-Orthodox not so secure in their faith and who cannot use reason to interpret scripture cannot see the difference and fear falling into idolatry. We believe that God gave us the power to reason so we can know what the Scriptures mean, not just what they say.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

…Perhaps some non-Catholic/non-Orthodox not so secure in their faith and who cannot use reason to interpret scripture cannot see the difference and fear falling into idolatry…

I agree. That is why I posted the material above.

Let’s look at the dictionary definition of idolatry. It’s short. And since the New Advent definition seems to be unacceptable to the OP, let’s go with short.

worship or divine honour paid to any created object.

Catholics do not worship Sacred Art.

 

[Teflon93]

so your argument here is that without these statues and pictures we cannot pray? So, me being an RCIA Catholic who has never used the images or pictures for prayer has actually never prayed?

I am not arguing to get rid of these things, I have great confidence that out there there is a perfect answer to my question.

Nope—I’m arguing that in elevating others’ use of icons as prayer aids to prime importance the way you are you are in fact engaging in a form of idolatry yourself.

It is fine that you do not find them useful. Your brothers and sisters do. Will you seek to deny them what the Church allows on your own authority, through your discomfort with the practice?

Beware the false god Self.

 

[cheddarsox]

After you restated your original question, I got to thinking. First, I don’t believe we cut it close; in fact, there is a huge gulf between our use of icons, statues and images as focusing agents in prayer, and a pagan-like use of them as items of actual worship. Perhaps some non-Catholic/non-Orthodox not so secure in their faith and who cannot use reason to interpret scripture cannot see the difference and fear falling into idolatry. We believe that God gave us the power to reason so we can know what the Scriptures mean, not just what they say.

Most pagans who use statues use them in the same way Catholics do. They do not think the statue IS a god, but that it represents a diety or spirit, and it is what the statue represents that they worship and honor.

This is not to suggest Catholics are pagans, but just to clear up how many pagans use statues in the practice of their faith.

 

[jkatpc]

Most pagans who use statues use them in the same way Catholics do. They do not think the statue IS a god, but that it represents a diety or spirit, and it is what the statue represents that they worship and honor.

This is not to suggest Catholics are pagans, but just to clear up how many pagans use statues in the practice of their faith.

Thanks for the clarification. I had actually meant pagans of the long, long ago variety.