Hard time understanding Justification and Sanctification

[fhansen]

Here’s how it works. We can reject the free gift at any step along the way. As Augustine put it, “He who made you without your consent does not save you without your consent.” To the extent that we remain in Him and He in us God produces in us what we cannot. It’s a cooperative effort, because He loves and covets that, our participation, wanting us to take on and own our righteousness increasingly with the help of grace, as we want what He wants. But we can always refuse to do the work He’s prepared for us; we can refuse to take up our cross, to walk the talk…

As to judgment the Church teaches, quoting a 16th century believer, “At the evening of life we shall be judged on our love.” That ties together and sums up and the entire gospel and New Covenant in a nutshell.

“From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked.” Luke 12:48

The New Covenant is not about freedom from obligation. That’s what Adam wanted. God wants more for and from us than that.

 

[tgGodsway]

As I said in an earlier post, with this theology, we line up quite well with the Jehovah’s witnesses and Mormons who all say yes and amen! to what you said here.

Here’s how it works. We can reject the free gift at any step along the way

Yes! and Jesus is clear, if we reject Him, He will reject us. There is no doubt about that. If we deny Him, He will deny us, according to Matt. 10:33.

But you’ve read into the concept more than what is actually there. The word deny also translates into the word reject. All true!.. Six chapter later we find Jesus saying, " If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross and follow Me." 16:24. Interestingly, the Greek word for deny in Matt. 10 changes to a different Greek word in Mt. 16. The word translated deny (in Mt. 16:24) means more than reject, it means disown. Modern translations of Mt. 10 have tried to say the word remains the same in both cases. But they never back it up. My point is, … at the judgment seat of Christ, it will surely be the “terror of the Lord” for those “in Christ” who did not take up their cross to follow Him. But since the fact that they will be standing at the judgment seat, instead, of the Great White Throne Judgment, ( a 1000 years after). these failing believers are the justified ones, who’s ungodly sins were covered by Christ at the cross. Judgment for Christians is not about staying in the family, but about earning an inheritance in the family. Thus we can say, “saved by grace, judged by works.”

 

[fhansen]

There’s so much error in this all I can say is, ‘so much for Sola Scriptura’, the leading cause of confusion and disagreement in the Christian world (it’s the basis of JW theology BTW). Salvation is not a one time event. Faith and post-conversion works are both from grace, both are gifts that are expected to be accepted and acted on. We’re saved by being and remaining in communion with God, by knowing Him. The foundation of this is faith, from our perspective. But fruit must result, and the fruit is love, and that is much more important than faith as Paul tells us in 1 Cor 13. And love produces works by its nature, acting for the good of others, which is why Jesus can tell us that we’ll be judged based on what we’ve done for the “least of these” in Matt 25. None of this has anything to do with earning special “rewards”. The NT is replete with admonishments and warnings and encouragements about what we must do in order to receive or not forfeit eternal life.

 

[tgGodsway]

The NT is replete with admonishments and warnings and encouragements about what we must do in order to receive or not forfeit eternal life.

Interesting. Please give me a bible example of these admonishments and warnings … about what we must do in order to receive or not forfeit eternal life.

 

[fhansen]

"To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life." Rom 2:7

"Make every effort to live in peace with everyone and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord." Heb 12:14

"If you want to enter life, keep the commandments." Matt 19:17

"For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad." 1 Cor 5:10

“Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’" Matt 25:34-36

"Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. 8 For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life. And let us not grow weary while doing good, for in due season we shall reap if we do not lose heart." Gal 6:7-9

Plus many others, about refraining from sin, being perfect, being holy, being vigilant, keeping oil in ones lamp, striving, persevering, remaining in Christ, being meek, pure of heart, investing ones talents, not being a branch grafted in but later cut off etc, etc. Generally with loss of place in the Kingdom at stake.

 

[tgGodsway]

Wow fhansen, you’ve given me a lot here. Okay. I will tackle them one at a time. The Romans 2:7 passage is predictable. Many people lift this verse out of the larger context in which it was written. Paul was not trying to undo himself. He was discussing how God will deal with men in the final judgment (Ro.2:5) One should remember that born-again believers do not come into that judgment, period! See John 5:24.

In this future day, the day of grace will be past and men will stand before their judge for His final assessment of their lives. see Rev. 20:12. His judgment will be impartial and based on their works. Those who have persevered in doing good may expect eternal life. Those who have not only heard, but kept, God’s law, will receive God’s justification. There is no room to impose the idea that it is a final justification. But who are these people in the Ro. 2 passage? … Paul goes on to say, “there are none who qualify!” See Rom. 3:10, 20. Actually the context of Ro. 3:9-19 speaks for itself. This was his driving point! No one can actually qualify for eternal life because no one can actually keep the law at all. This position forces us to take another look at what was accomplished at the cross. Was it enough? yes.

 

[fhansen]

The cross accomplishes our access to grace, our access to God. From there we can accept and run with the gift, or reject it, or throw it back away anytime later. No one knows with 100% certainty who will persevere and who will not, who, exactly John 5:24 applies to and who it does not, whose names are written in the book of life and whose are not. And Paul and others are not alternating between those under the law and those under grace; we don’t have to reinterpret his words or read between the lines. Rom 2:13 applies to everyone.

"It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6 and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace. 7 Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God. 8 But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned." Heb 6:4-8

"Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life." Rev 21:27

“Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. 15 Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood." Rev 22:14-15

 

[tgGodsway]

No one knows with 100% certainty who will persevere and who will not, who, exactly John 5:24 applies to and who it does not, whose names are written in the book of life and whose are not.

Yes of course, to persevere to the end, is always a needed quality in this theology, as if the act of justification is a process. I stand on my point. You’ve lifted a verse out of its context and forced it to mean something other. Paul’s argument is too compelling to dismiss with your line of thought. But because you approach it with a set of presuppositions, such as a persevering or the enduring requirement to stay justified, it is difficult for you to buy-in to what it means to receive a gift.

John 5:24 applies to exactly who Jesus said it would apply to: “… he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me, has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed (past tense) from death into life.”

It is the same simple formula found throughout the entire gospel of John. For instance, two chapters earlier, Jesus said, “…whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.” 3:15.

And of course the famous John 3:16 that says, “God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.”

How about 6:29, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom he sent.”

One last one, John 6:40, “And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life, and I will raise him up at the last day.”

In each case, Jesus repetitively makes the case for eternal life and in each case several things are not part of the equation. To endure, to persevere or even to repent is found nowhere in the evangelistic gospel.

My point is, on this narrow point of theology, of how one obtains eternal life, the case was made by our savior who serves as the final authority. Eternal life is a free gift without strings. This creates gratitude in the hearts of those who understand and receive it.

 

[tgGodsway]

Make every effort to live in peace with everyone and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord." Heb 12:14

"If you want to enter life, keep the commandments." Matt 19:17

Who is to be holy from the Hebrews 12 passage? The ungodly justified ones of Rom 4:5. The challenge to separate from a sinful life to a consecrated life before God was the subject of the chapter for the justified believer.

It will profit us, verse 10 says, if we partake of His holiness, lest we (the justified ones) cannot see the Lord v14. In what way can we NOT see the Lord? Spiritually? literally? physically? Eternally? Will it be forever? if so, on what scriptural bases in the context? What choices do we have to work with within the (chap.) text? …

Using your approach, we must impose a new idea to the text. We must assume the believer who does not pursue a holy life will lose his justified status by the time he dies. Surely he will lose his “inheritance” of verse 17 as well.

Question: On what bases will he lose his justified status, seeing that he was justified freely by the work of another?

In other words his position in Christ was credited to him freely. On what bases does he lose it?.. in my view, he could only lose it on the bases in which he received it. The inadequacy has to be based on the one who gave it and not his own personal merit.

All of this is a “connect the dots” theology to which the writer of Hebrews was not addressing in this chapter. His concern was a contrast between a “son” (one who is mature in the faith) from wayward son, (one who, though born into the family, behaved immaturely) like Esau (v16) who sold his birthright. He was not able to earn his inheritance as he should have.

Matthew 19:17. … my goodness fhansen. The rich young ruler never got his question answered, I don’t know if you ever noticed. Jesus retorted with a question. Why do you call me good?.. No one is good but one, that is, God!..
Question: Do you think the rich ruler had that revelation?.. that Jesus was God?.. On what bases is someone good? Jesus said “no one is good but one, … God!” It is obvious from the rest of the story the man never understood. All that was left was to point him to the commandments as a measurement of what is good. This man was delusional enough to believe that he was good because he kept the commandments. Really? did he?

He didn’t know that righteousness must first be received as a gift through faith. Jesus used the law to load him down with its requirements for the purpose of breaking his back to the impossibilities of keeping it. If and when that happens, all that is left is mercy and grace, a concept the rich young ruler knew nothing about.

 

[tgGodsway]

"For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad." 1 Cor 5:10

What does this passage have anything to do with receiving, or keeping, eternal life? Please be specific.

 

[fhansen]

Yes of course, to persevere to the end, is always a needed quality in this theology,

Yes, in Christian theology -and Scripture. And yes, our state of justice can be maintained, grown, or lost: and God expects it to grow. Yes Virginia, , even believers are obligated to be righteous. God would have nothing less for us.

It’s not a matter of pulling anything out of context. The Law cannot justify us, and we’ll be judged by the Law. Christianity 101 again. Jesus told the young ruler he must obey the commandments. The Law is not abolished. He’s speaking in plain terms, not asking us to go through any mental gymnastics to understand them. He even challenges the young man to an even higher level of perfection yet.

Shades of John 5:39 should be dancing in our heads by now. Because the truth is that we can trade Scripture verses all day long, and yours will be plausible enough and so will mine to support our respective positions. Expert biblical scholars do the same, with often opposing views. Sola Scriptura doesn’t work. It took me a long time to finally get honest and admit that to myself; I was pretty anti-Catholic at one time. But Scripture can be vague and sometimes apparently even contradictory. We cannot pick up a book on God, centuries after the fact, and presume to know what it means to say in many of it’s details without benefit of the (name removed by moderator)ut of the Church that received and proclaimed the gospel before a word of the New Testament was written, and whose members later wrote and later yet assembled the canon of that testament. Otherwise it becomes a matter of nothing more than best-guess theology; may the better exegete win, as if that’s all there is to it. I endure trading verses because Scripture is the sole Protestant authority for the most part. But yours is the novel gospel in any case. Virtually all of the matters that Protestants argue about, even among themselves very often, were settled at the beginning with the Church.

 

[fhansen]

Question: On what bases will he lose his justified status, seeing that he was justified freely by the work of another?

It’s very simple. God has freely justified us. We can freely reject our state of justice… by returning to injustice.

 

[fhansen]

Question: Do you think the rich ruler had that revelation?.. that Jesus was God?.. On what bases is someone good? Jesus said “no one is good but one, … God!” It is obvious from the rest of the story the man never understood. All that was left was to point him to the commandments as a measurement of what is good. This man was delusional enough to believe that he was good because he kept the commandments. Really? did he?

Jesus told the truth; keep the commandments. But the New Covenant means of keeping the commandments is not the same as the old. We fulfill the commandments the right way by love, which is a work of God in us, and Jesus reiterated that by giving us the Greatest Commandments.

And love we must-that darn obligation thing again. But that’s been God’s work from the beginning, to bring us to that point. So that, again, the Church can wisely and knowingly teach, “At the evening of life we shall be judged on our love.” Salvation is worked out; a cooperative effort. God always cooperates; we’re the wildcard.

 

[tgGodsway]

“Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’" Matt 25:34-36

There is no doubt that the judgment of nations will be a meritorious judgment. But what does this have to do with our subject?

 

[tgGodsway]

It’s very simple. God has freely justified us. We can freely reject our state of justice… by returning to in justice.

How does one reverse a birth?.. The legal terms do not tie in with the relational terms. We are born into a new family. How does the bible show the potential of a reversed birth?

 

[fhansen]

Rebirth. Anyone who comes alive can die again. Why object to this? Man has a will. He can choose God or he can reject Him. Or choose Him and later reject Him. God offers; man can accept or refuse. As Augustine put it, “He who made you without your consent does not save you without your consent.”

 

[tgGodsway]

And love we must -that darn obligation thing again. But that’s been God’s work from the beginning, to bring us to that point. So that, again, the Church can wisely and knowingly teach, “At the evening of life we shall be judged on our love.”

I have no problem with an obligation to love. The question isn’t about WHAT we should do. We should always love! The question is more about WHY we do it. Here is one thing I don’t do. I do not love God or others so that I can remain justified. If I did that, then my justification was not a gift given at all. It was an obligation as Paul stated in Ro. 4:4, “Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace, but as debt. v5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, hi faith is accounted for righteousness.”

 

[fhansen]

There is no doubt that the judgment of nations will be a meritorious judgment. But what does this have to do with our subject?

Judgment is judgment; this is the criteria by which the sheep and goats are separated in that passage, who is just in the eyes of God and who is not.

 

[tgGodsway]

haven’t you read John 1:12, 13, “But as many as received Him, to them he gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name, v13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the WILL OF MAN, but of God.”

Everyone knows that any baby born into the world is passive in the birth channel. It is the will of both parents and not the baby to be born.

 

[fhansen]

No, we don’'t love God or others in order to be justified. Heck, we don’t necessarily believe in order to be justified. And yet, in order to be in a state of justice we must believe, hope, and love. Adam failed in all three. But when the obligation becomes our spontaneous desire and act, then we’ve “arrived”. Meanwhile God has the right to demand these things. Man in his pride generally opposes the idea of obligation, but we have it. If I haven’t quoted him already here, Basil, a 3rd or 4th century bishop, put it this way:

If we turn away from evil out of fear of punishment, we are in the position of slaves. If we pursue the enticement of wages, . . . we resemble mercenaries. Finally if we obey for the sake of the good itself and out of love for him who commands . . . we are in the position of children.