Hard to believe Scripture

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a_mirror_dimly said:
I think that’s a topic for a different thread 😉
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Is there a thread you’re in where you go into that? Because Why aren’t you Catholic is a good question for you. And the “mirror dimly” is one of my favorite passages in Scripture. C.S. Lewis connected the “mirror dimly” passage with the way God communicates (how fitting for the topic of this thread). What we are given in revelation or even the Sacraments, are but signs for we who are earth-bound—signs of what we shall see and understand in glory someday. That’s kind of why I am fully willing to embrace God teaching mankind via stories that have mythical elements, for the great depth of meaning that can be communicated via story. This is especially true for the infant Church of the Old Testament where mythical elements were more common, and served well as types of what was to come. Almost like a child being taught via stories, and as he grows older understands what the real message behind the story was.
 
i read this book on exorcism that helped me immensely to understand the thing about the snake in Genesis…

When this one woman was going through the exorcism, her face changed into one like a snake/reptile! It was only partially caught on video because she turned her head (or the demon did…)…

this info just helped me understand… even though its still rather mysterious…
 
distracted said:
i definitely do NOT struggle w/ the notion that man fell… I KNOW from experience that that is true… (and how). I just find the part about the snake difficult to believe… I am wondering if the devil is just called a serpent for some mysterious reason???

I mean, animals do not talk to man…

THat is probably the hardest thing to believe about the passage…

If it weren’t for my awareness of the Presence of Christ in the Church 24/7… (and some “lesser” Christian “things”)… I would tend question Christianity because of this passage… and am not surprised that many others DO…
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**The talking powers of the snake are important in one way - as an example of boundary-crossing; a motif of which Genesis 1-11 is full. **​

**But the story is not asserting that serpents can chat with humans as the main thing about the story - just as the talking jenny of Balaam (Numbers 22) is not the main thing about the Book of Numbers. The story is not about herpetology. The detail about the snake is a plot device - another could have been found instead. **
 
distracted said:
i definitely do NOT struggle w/ the notion that man fell… I KNOW from experience that that is true… (and how). I just find the part about the snake difficult to believe… I am wondering if the devil is just called a serpent for some mysterious reason???

I mean, animals do not talk to man…

THat is probably the hardest thing to believe about the passage…

If it weren’t for my awareness of the Presence of Christ in the Church 24/7… (and some “lesser” Christian “things”)… I would tend question Christianity because of this passage… and am not surprised that many others DO…
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Just because man cannot talk to animals now, doesn’t mean they didn’t in the Garden… things were much different then. Remember Adam lived in the garden with al the animals and even named them. Clearly the relationship with them was much different than it was after the fall. So, while it may be hard to fathom now, I don’t think it’s out of the relm of reality.

Regarding the serpent: Hebrew word nachash is the generic name of any serpent, not necessarily a snake in particular. And I think to dwell on the specifics of what the devil was disguised as begs the question: What difference does it make? The real point being is that Eve was tricked and she tempted Adam and he did the deed. The rest of the “details” are really not all that important when it comes to faith. Would it make a difference if instead of a serpent the devil was disguised as a panda bear? No, of course not.
If this is the passage that would make you question Christianity, then how do you feel about John 9:6 "When he had thus spoken, he spat on the ground, and made clay of the spittle, and he anointed the eyes of the blind man with the clay
Is it easier to believe that Jesus healed a man by spittingin the dirt and smearing it on his face or that the devil disguised himself as a serpent so he could trick Eve?
 
" I think to dwell on the specifics of what the devil was disguised as begs the question: What difference does it make? The real point being is that Eve was tricked and she tempted Adam and he did the deed. The rest of the “details” are really not all that important when it comes to faith. Would it make a difference if instead of a serpent the devil was disguised as a panda bear? No, of course not."
I concur Mabibleteacher.So many times discussing the details of Scripture one misses the forest for the trees.I liken it to the old theological argument about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.Who cares?How does this affect my salvation?If one is truly honest the most preposterous thing in Holy Scripture and the Christian Faith is the Incarnation-God humbling Himself to take on MY nature.Thak God He did.
 
A simple story that a 3th grader can understand is the story of Adam and Eve and the serpent.

The story dissolves into it’s true meaning when we learn deeper truths.

If we say that Adam represents the breath of God (spirit) that is God’s breath into an earthen vessel (Eve) there is a Holy alliance called a marriage.

This marriage is between God and the flesh.

For we know that the flesh is weak Ref: Mat 26:41 Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed [is] willing, but the flesh [is] weak.

Eve, therefore is pictured as the weaker of the two because she represents the mother of all flesh.

While Adam, the stronger for He represents the spiritual end of the flesh

Here is now where the serpent comes into the picture.

Knowledge without a host is useless, may just as well be a robot.

A robot has no free will!

Now, the serpent is become our adversary only after knowledge is gained (Eaten) or as the story goes, eating of the apple.

Now, if we eat of the fruit of knowledge, we become as gods, with our own free will.

That!..is enmity against God. Knowledge brings separation and separation is death to b0th the body and the soul.

Guess whose to blame? The devil right? That old serpent?

Well guess what? If that serpent pays the price for his deception, would that not free mankind from it’s death sentence?

We understand that no one person born after the flesh had/has the with all to save itself unless God be the Savior.

Jesus in the flesh (Emanuel=God with us) became that serpent by nullifying the original designed death sentence on mankind.

That is why Jesus was hung on a cross Ref:Gal 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed [is] every one that hangeth on a tree:

Therefore, the curse of eternal separation upon us was taken on for our behalf by God’s Christ.

Hence: A new creation! This time, no separation, no death but lie eternal!

Now, if you can accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior, you become a new creature in Christ, never to die, but to forever live with Him now and after this life is over.

To live with Him now, while in the flesh is to have access in and out of His Kingdom.

One can be as intimate with God as one desires, or one can choose to live this life to the fullest by having God lead your paths.

Either way, the body still is subject to the elements of this world, where evil people, deceases, famines, sufferings are our adversaries, but our hears are for God.

He gives us peace of mind, contentment, satisfaction and happiness while yet in our misery.

Weather you want to be a Catholic or a protestant, what is born in you is not a religion, but Christ!

Worship Him how best you know how to do, walk with Him in your daily life by observing only two commandments Ref:Luk 10:27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.

Do it as a Catholic or as Protestant, for God seeks those who would worship Him in spirit and in truth!

Peace>>>AJ
 
mabibleteacher said:
If this is the passage that would make you question Christianity, then how do you feel about John 9:6 "When he had thus spoken, he spat on the ground, and made clay of the spittle, and he anointed the eyes of the blind man with the clay
Is it easier to believe that Jesus healed a man by spittingin the dirt and smearing it on his face or that the devil disguised himself as a serpent so he could trick Eve?
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i never said it made me quesiton Christianity, at least not to the point i would reject it… For one thing, i have experienced the Real Presence and that would keep me Christian if nothing else…

and what on EArth is so hard to believe abuot Jesus spitting on the ground to use the “mud” to heal someone? Most of the unbelievable stuff is in the Old Test. … although a lot of Revelation is difficult to grasp also…

I love the story of Jesus healing this way… I’m not sure why he did that that particular time… that is what is confusing to me… why this time was different from other times he healed… but anyway… that guy was “lucky” to have been touched by Christ Himself… :hug1: :heaven: :hug1:
 
Why did God need to ask those questions when God knows everything anyway?:confused:
 
distracted said:
i definitely do NOT struggle w/ the notion that man fell… I KNOW from experience that that is true… (and how). I just find the part about the snake difficult to believe… I am wondering if the devil is just called a serpent for some mysterious reason???

I mean, animals do not talk to man…

THat is probably the hardest thing to believe about the passage…

If it weren’t for my awareness of the Presence of Christ in the Church 24/7… (and some “lesser” Christian “things”)… I would tend question Christianity because of this passage… and am not surprised that many others DO…
Click to expand...
The bible nevered called the devil a snake.

Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden? … For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil." -Genesis 3:1,5

It was the Devil in the Garden of Eden who led Eve to sin, and then Eve led Adam to sin. Satan twisted the Word of God around and LIED to Eve. Satan is the father of all liars (John 8:44). Satan is still perverting the Truth of God’s Word (Romans 1:25). The world is filled with Satanic lies, philosophies, and religion because Satan desires to kill, steal, and destroy (John 10:10; 2nd Corinthians 4:4).
 
It was the Devil in the Garden of Eden who led Eve to sin>>>Fisher
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Fisher, what one thing is common to all human beings regardless of who it is?

Could it be that we all have the ability to gain knowledge?

And if we gain knowledge, wouldn’t that be the same as like eating of the fruit of the tree of knowledge?

If for no other reason, can the serpent in the garden not be a simple analogy of what caused us to gain knowledge?

Is a baby enticed to learn by knowledge given?

Nobody forces a baby to start learning.

Hence, the day we are accountable, we become separated from God as we become our own god.

So, the point is not the snake, the serpent but that our eyes are opened to the other tree, which is the tree of life.

If we reach out and partake of that trees knowledge, we shall have life.

Ref: Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

The first was physical the second is spiritual.

To be born of water is to be in the physical and to be born of the spirit, is spiritual.

Ref: Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

We are already in the physical (Water) and in need of being reborn of the Spirit of God. (Spirit)

Water in the bible represents the pool of people, as being baptized, meaning immersed into this world of vanity, and the spirit of God being the only thing that can save us from it.

The message above all else is: For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son for it.

Now, can we say hallelujah to that? Praise God that He did not leave us in this state.

Peace>>>AJ
 
Parabol said:
Sorry, why did God need to ask Adam where he was? Why did God need to ask Eve why she gave Adam the apple?
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Not even the thoughts of the mind are hidden from God.
Consistent with the bible:Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Try hiding from the Lord? “I don’t think so Tim” quoting Tim Allen.

The point? Is that God is trying to tell us that we are inferior as gods and unless we direct our attention to Him, we can not hide from Him even if we think He may not exist.

Peace>>>AJ
 
Either I’m too stupid to understand your answer or my question wasn’t clear enough sorry

‘After the man, Adam, had eaten of the tree, the Lord God called to the man and asked him, “where are you?” He answered, “I heard you i the garden; but i was afraid, because i was naked, so i hid myslef.” Then he asked, “who told you that you were naked? You have eaten, then, from the tree of which I had forbidden you to eat!” The man replied, “the woman whom you put here with me - she gave me fruit from the tree, and so i ate it.” The Lord God then asked the woman, "why did you do such a thing?’

I didn’t embolden the second question because it seems rhetorical, the other two don’t though, so why did God need to ask these questions? If you meant those two questions were ‘God making a point’ I find it needlessly obscure that it is written or translated that way. Do you see where I’m coming from?
 
Parabol said:
Either I’m too stupid to understand your answer or my question wasn’t clear enough sorry

‘After the man, Adam, had eaten of the tree, the Lord God called to the man and asked him, “where are you?” He answered, “I heard you i the garden; but i was afraid, because i was naked, so i hid myself.” Then he asked, “who told you that you were naked? You have eaten, then, from the tree of which I had forbidden you to eat!” The man replied, “the woman whom you put here with me - she gave me fruit from the tree, and so i ate it.” The Lord God then asked the woman, "why did you do such a thing?’

I didn’t embolden the second question because it seems rhetorical, the other two don’t though, so why did God need to ask these questions? If you meant those two questions were ‘God making a point’ I find it needlessly obscure that it is written or translated that way. Do you see where I’m coming from?
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No one is stupid! We are all at different levels of understanding and should help each other out as God gives each of us revelations.
Above all, compassion, forgiveness, patience, long-suffering and the greatest of all, love is our modus operandi.

The key lies in the word “naked”.

You see, when knowledge was gained to the point of understanding, mankind sees themselves as naked.

Meaning uncovered, inferior less than perfect, so shame is the consequence of inferiority.

The second meaning (as attempted to point out in my last post) is that regardless of our god status, we are not God, and are in need of God for our salvation.

Hence, nothing is hidden from God even though mankind may try to hide from Him.
 
look3467 said:
No one is stupid! We are all at different levels of understanding and should help each other out as God gives each of us revelations.
Above all, compassion, forgiveness, patience, long-suffering and the greatest of all, love is our modus operandi.

The key lies in the word “naked”.

You see, when knowledge was gained to the point of understanding, mankind sees themselves as naked.

Meaning uncovered, inferior less than perfect, so shame is the consequence of inferiority.

The second meaning (as attempted to point out in my last post) is that regardless of our god status, we are not God, and are in need of God for our salvation.

Hence, nothing is hidden from God even though mankind may try to hide from Him.
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"Naked" in the Hebrew is arum - which is a pun on the word for “subtle” in verse 1. Unfortunately the word-play does not survive translation into English.​

 
Gottle_of_Geer said:

"Naked" in the Hebrew is arum - which is a pun on the word for “subtle” in verse 1. Unfortunately the word-play does not survive translation into English.​

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As in suddenly discovering ones inaptness?

How else would we know if we had not first gained knowledge of?

And further more, does that not apply to every human being?

Exceptions are babies and mentally retarded souls.

The word naked as defined in the literal snse is what it means.

But defined in the spiritual, means discovery of a state less then, or stripped of the true state, as in less than an angel.

In that context we can see the true spiritual nature of what is transpiring physically.

In this case, the story is a spiritual picture of the true works of God but made to where humanity can identify and understand the basic principals of hose works.

Bringing us to the meat of the word if we seek for it.

Peace>>>AJ
 
distracted said:
i never said it made me quesiton Christianity, at least not to the point i would reject it… For one thing, i have experienced the Real Presence and that would keep me Christian if nothing else…

and what on EArth is so hard to believe abuot Jesus spitting on the ground to use the “mud” to heal someone? Most of the unbelievable stuff is in the Old Test. … although a lot of Revelation is difficult to grasp also…

I love the story of Jesus healing this way… I’m not sure why he did that that particular time… that is what is confusing to me… why this time was different from other times he healed… but anyway… that guy was “lucky” to have been touched by Christ Himself… :hug1: :heaven: :hug1:
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No, I believe what you said was that the particular scripture in questions was so unbelievable to you that it could not possibly be taken literally or else there would be very few Christians.

If Christians truly believe in God and understand His nature and all of His power and Glory, that you have to accept that the Bible is God. To reject any part of it, is to reject God.
To say that it’s been “misinterpreted” is to say that God Himself has been changed by man. Since God is immutable (unchanging) that cannot be the case.
 
mabibleteacher said:
No, I believe what you said was that the particular scripture in questions was so unbelievable to you that it could not possibly be taken literally or else there would be very few Christians.

If Christians truly believe in God and understand His nature and all of His power and Glory, that you have to accept that the Bible is God. To reject any part of it, is to reject God.
To say that it’s been “misinterpreted” is to say that God Himself has been changed by man. Since God is immutable (unchanging) that cannot be the case.
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The Bible IS God???Please explain.
 
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