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ProVobis
Guest
This is a nice example of what one can accomplish with any instrument, given the right acoustics and melody. The inflective nature of the Latin language doesn’t hurt either.
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ProVobis
Guest
It is true that not everyone attends a megachurch because of the crowd, but we have one around here with a huge expanding parking area where on Sunday mornings people seem to drop in because they are curious as to what’s going on. (I once attended there myself.) Of course, once the malls open up after noon, the crowds go over there.
Crowd psychology is an interesting study in marketing. One can’t deny there is appeal and newsworthiness in seeing crowds. But as we saw with Crystal Cathedral, mass appeal (no pun intended) doesn’t last forever. Maybe its music too, but we’ll see.
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pianistclare
Guest
Many of us would have a difficult time with Mexican music in our Mass (unless we are Mexican!). But Our Lady apparently approved and continued to bless Mexico! That’s pretty powerful “evidence” that white, European, Gregorian chant in Latin is not the only music that God loves in the Mass. We really, really need to be careful not to try to speak for God. Our bishops have done well to give very general guidelines that can be used to include almost any style of music and almost any instrument, including the lowly harmonica.
Yes.
I’ve always had trouble with the notion that God only speaks Latin, or that other languages are inferior for prayer, Mass, or singing.
When a person visits any of the Marian Apparition sites, you can hear people singing the Hail Mary in any number of languages. I can’t imagine the local Bishop admonishing people to stop praying or singing in their native tongues. Anyone remember “go out and preach to all nations?” The Apostles didn’t go out and preach in Latin. Maybe they did in Rome, but likely everywhere else, they used their gift of tongues. If God wanted the entire earth to speak only one language, He might had made that happen. Would have saved a lot of confusion and less coursework for children, eh?
But I digress.
Once we ask the Bishops to “censor” the liturgy in a musical way, we limit prayer.
Some of you will say “GREAT! THEY SHOULD!”
But I for one am careful not to condemn the practices permitted by good priests in many parishes. They have a Bishop that they answer to. And believe me, the Bishop actually DOES know what goes on in his Diocese. There are plenty of people tattling, writing letters, refusing to contribute money unless this and such changes, etc.
If censorship comes to pass, we would deal with it. But it would deny many folks from sharing their gifts. Do we really want that? I imagine that if the parish priest of the man with the harmonica really disliked it, he would ask him to stop. Beyond that…it’s his call.
What sort of music do you suppose is played in heaven?
I’ll bet it’s all kinds, and I’ll bet God isn’t annoyed. God loves. People? Not so much.
Some Catholic churches have lousy music, true. But I’m guessing it’s near as rampant as people on CAF make it out to be.
I’d rather focus on my own failings during the Confiteor than the failings of the choir. :coffeeread:
Yes.
I’ve always had trouble with the notion that God only speaks Latin, or that other languages are inferior for prayer, Mass, or singing.
When a person visits any of the Marian Apparition sites, you can hear people singing the Hail Mary in any number of languages. I can’t imagine the local Bishop admonishing people to stop praying or singing in their native tongues. Anyone remember “go out and preach to all nations?” The Apostles didn’t go out and preach in Latin. Maybe they did in Rome, but likely everywhere else, they used their gift of tongues. If God wanted the entire earth to speak only one language, He might had made that happen. Would have saved a lot of confusion and less coursework for children, eh?
But I digress.
Once we ask the Bishops to “censor” the liturgy in a musical way, we limit prayer.
Some of you will say “GREAT! THEY SHOULD!”
But I for one am careful not to condemn the practices permitted by good priests in many parishes. They have a Bishop that they answer to. And believe me, the Bishop actually DOES know what goes on in his Diocese. There are plenty of people tattling, writing letters, refusing to contribute money unless this and such changes, etc.
If censorship comes to pass, we would deal with it. But it would deny many folks from sharing their gifts. Do we really want that? I imagine that if the parish priest of the man with the harmonica really disliked it, he would ask him to stop. Beyond that…it’s his call.
What sort of music do you suppose is played in heaven?
I’ll bet it’s all kinds, and I’ll bet God isn’t annoyed. God loves. People? Not so much.
Some Catholic churches have lousy music, true. But I’m guessing it’s near as rampant as people on CAF make it out to be.
I’d rather focus on my own failings during the Confiteor than the failings of the choir. :coffeeread:
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27lw
Guest
Hi Cat,
Now, I have a question about Mexican music during Mass. Surely, before Vatican II, the music at Mass was actually not Mexican-styled? Wouldn’t they have used the Gregorian chant, etc that was used everywhere else? When was the mariachi-style music introduced to Mass? I’m thinking this could not have been before the early 1960s. I know there have been church music composers from Latin America, but the music that I’ve heard of theirs has been more traditional European-sounding (for instance, the “Bolivian Baroque” CD).
So, people in Latin America were Catholics for centuries, but all of a sudden, in the 1960s, they needed mariachi to inculturate the Mass?
youtube.com/watch?v=jewhu9VpEyo
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Hoosier_Daddy
Guest
Yes Cat. I am interested in learning more about this too. I have always wondered about what the Mexican Church looked like before VII, because it is so distinctly different from English Masses.
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ProVobis
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Phemie
Guest
I would imagine that before Vatican II they would have had the 4-hymn sandwich in Spanish, just like we did in French. No matter how much I wrack my brain, other than the seasonal ones, the ones I remember best were Marian or Eucharistic.
“Avec les saints anges” (Immaculate Mary) “J’irai la voir un jour”, “Le voici l’Agneau si doux”,
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Tigg
Guest
Hi Mark - we have no TLM in our entire diocese. For those not given the option, I would still hope that our music be reverent and worthy of every single Mass celebrated no matter the form. :sad_yes:Guitar, bass, harmonica, violin, drums?..Now I know why I prefer the TLM!!!
Peace, Mark
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ProVobis
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I take it then you wouldn’t mind more midi-compatible keyboards and the like, which I like to program BTW, and which practically play themselves in Church? They already have them at Spanish Masses at my local parish.
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pianistclare
Guest
Sure! Our parish only has digital pianos. Much more reasonable priced than acoustic instruments, never need tuning, and if you get a good brand, like a Yamaha or a Kawai they can be of superior quality and offer the most options for volume and instrumentation. Some are just awful though. You have to be really careful to select a brand that is good.
Although we are not permitted to have them play themselves, as they can actually do, when you load them with your own recordings or pre-sets.
Mexican Masses have Mass parts and hymns like any other. The music is just in the style of their culture. Which can often mean, a “too lively for some” Lamb of God and such. I play for the Spanish Mass at our parish, and am teaching the Coro to read music. The biggest problem that they have is the lack of theologically sound pieces. Many are very devotional in tone, but lack scriptural verses and the like. Particularly the Christmas music. Our pastor was expecting Spanish language “O Come all Ye Faithful” but they are not familiar with it. They do have songs like “Mi Burrito Sabanero” which sounds lively and cutesy, but not great Midnight Mass material. Would be wonderful at a Children’s Mass. We play it, because it is beloved of the people. But some would prefer more solemn music. There are not many Spanish/Mexican versions of the traditional carols that are familiar to Mexicans. Although they do sing Silent Night and Angels We Have Heard on High in Spanish. Again, it’s an anglo expectation of another culture.
Mark121359
Well-known member
I hear you Tigg. For the OF Mass I love the traditional hymns from the Adoremus Hymnal, which you hear for the Mass on EWTN. They seem to get it right. I must admit, I’m not one for the contemporary music used at some parishes today. :yawn: The very thought of guitars, drums, harmonicas etc.for use at Mass sort of strikes me of modernism…but that could be just me.
Peace, Mark
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Hoosier_Daddy
Guest
Sounds like my former diocese. You would not have a brand new Bishop by any chance would you?
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vindicated
Guest
I think-------NOT! 
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Cat
Guest
Actually, many parishes would have no music at all, because the music education programs in the public and many private schools would not have provided children with enough musical chops to be able to sing Gregorian chant or Latin, or know anything about music other than popular.Well, if SACROSANCTUM CONCILIUM, which the bishops voted 2147-4 (!) in favor of, meant or means anything…
Gregorian chant would be prevalent, Latin would be the norm, the pipe organ would be the choice of instruments, and antiphons would have never been put on backburners.
Also, even though there are parents who get their children involved in piano lessons, very few get them involved with organ lessons. Most parents in the last 20 years are more likely to enroll their children in a sport (e.g., soccer) rather than in music lessons. In the last month, we have seen story after story on our local news of high school seniors signing to play sports with various colleges (for a full scholarship), while we have seen NO stories about pianists playing for a university on a full scholarship.
Our U.S. economy doesn’t support Latin, chant, or pipe organ. As I have said in another post, I’m a fool to pay as much as I do for organ lessons. I should be setting it aside for my retirement. I’m taking a gamble that my poor eating habits will kill me before I reach retirement age.
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Cat
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27lw and Hoosier Daddy, until I read this little history book, I knew NOTHING about Mexican history, and very little about Our Lady of Guadalupe.
So I don’t have any expertise, and I fully realize that quoting from ONE history book is a risky action.
The book is Our Lady of Guadalupe and the Conquest of Darkness, written by Dr. Warren H. Carroll. Christendom Press, 1983. There is no imprimatur in my edition of the book.
Most of the book’s early chapters deal with the horrific and violent history of the Aztec rule in Mexico and the descriptions of the gruesome human sacrifices that were the norm in this country. During one particular week, 80,000 men were sacrificed.
Mexico, according to the author, was truly under the rule of Satan himself, and his emissaries were evil incarnate.
This was ended when Cortes conquered Mexico and established Christianity. But it was difficult because there were few missionaries, and the Indians of Mexico didn’t really “get” Christianity because it was the “white man’s religion,” not their religion. It was foreign to them.
After the Blessed Mother made her appearances to Juan Diego, things changed fairly quickly, and it’s amazing and encouraging to read.
We also have to keep in mind that it was the Franciscans who were the missionaries at the time, and from what I have heard and seen, they tend to be a little less “rigid” when it comes to music in the Mass.
p.107 “The result of the nine million baptisms by the time of the death of Juan Diego and Bishop Zumarraga in 1548 was the creation of large Christian Indian communities throughout most of central Mexico, where a substantial majority of the population was now Christian. They were usually separate from the Spanish communities, with great church-monastery complexes around which the Indian dwellings were gathered… The churches were decorated by Indian artists with frescoes and sculptures…The liturgy was celebrated with music played and sometimes composed by the Indians, and dramatized by Nahuatl plays (the earliest known, written by the Franciscan Fray Luis de Fuensalida probably before 1535, is of the Annunciation).”
This is the only paragraph that actually mentions the music, so it’s not a lot to go on. But it sounds very much to me like the music of the “Lady of Guadalupe” revival was “vernacular,” not Latin/chant imported from the European Church.
In the next few paragraphs in the chapter, mention is made of the “terrible mistake” of the Spanish Church not to ordain native priests. It sounds to me like Mexicans did not respond well to an imported liturgy, but responded well when their local customs and traditions (including music) were incorporated into the Mass.
That’s about all I know, folks. This author has several pages of footnotes and two pages of bibliography, so he knows more than I do. And perhaps there are others on CAF who are experts on Mexican history and the Catholic liturgy/music through the ages in Mexico.
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Tigg
Guest
Oh dear…am I busted? The answer would be yes, but I trust you to keep my anonymity.
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Tigg
Guest
Nope, Mark…it isn’t just you. I have a group I weekly commiserate with.
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Cat
Guest
Forgive me if I read too much into your post.Nope, Mark…it isn’t just you. I have a group I weekly commiserate with.
You “commiserate with” a group weekly?
May I ask, with respect at this point, what exactly you and your group are doing to bring about traditional music in your parish(es)?
I hope at the very least, you are praying, not just griping and complaining.
But hopefully, you are doing more than just praying, too. I would like to know what actions you are taking. Thank you.
If you aren’t taking any actions, then I have a list of actions that you and your group can work on that will be a start towards bringing traditional music into your Masses. :nunchuk:
(Hint: Most of my ideas involve money, your money.)
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pianistclare
Guest
LOL.
I’m always tickled when I read comments that say something about “modernists”. The remark drips with scorn.
I wonder if people who love the liturgy of centuries ago would enjoy it if people regularly posted about antiquarians or some other negative-sounding term. Not that I would do it, but honestly. Is there no charity left in the world?
Liturgy is for everyone, in every culture, in every age group.
Often, it’s not to our tastes. Often we don’t “get” the cultures of other groups.
But it’s the Mass, Christ is present, and we would do well to look inward, instead of outward.
We should be careful to not be quite so critical of our priests. They are the ones in charge of the liturgy in their parishes. Every choir directorship position I have had, I’ve worked under the guidance and approval of the pastor. Since educated musicians are hard to come by, at least their bosses are knowledgeable (having attended seminary, after all) and willing to correct errors in charity.
I’m always tickled when I read comments that say something about “modernists”. The remark drips with scorn.
I wonder if people who love the liturgy of centuries ago would enjoy it if people regularly posted about antiquarians or some other negative-sounding term. Not that I would do it, but honestly. Is there no charity left in the world?
Liturgy is for everyone, in every culture, in every age group.
Often, it’s not to our tastes. Often we don’t “get” the cultures of other groups.
But it’s the Mass, Christ is present, and we would do well to look inward, instead of outward.
We should be careful to not be quite so critical of our priests. They are the ones in charge of the liturgy in their parishes. Every choir directorship position I have had, I’ve worked under the guidance and approval of the pastor. Since educated musicians are hard to come by, at least their bosses are knowledgeable (having attended seminary, after all) and willing to correct errors in charity.
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27lw
Guest
Hi Cat!
Thanks for typing up the book excerpt! I see what you mean, it isn’t terribly specific on the details of the music. I don’t know how familiar you are with the EF Mass? I’m just a little familiar with it, having read about it, and having attended just a few times. Knowing how specific the chants, the daily propers, etc are, I just can’t even imagine where they would have added any Aztec-style music. It just doesn’t make sense to me.
Also, here is what I found in Wikipedia about mariachi music:
“Prior to the arrival of the Spanish, indigenous music was played with rattles, drums, flutes and conch-shell horns as part of religious celebrations. The Spanish introduced violins, guitars, harps, brass instruments, and woodwinds which mostly replaced the native instruments. The European instruments were introduced to be used during Mass but were quickly adapted to secular events.[1][3] Indigenous and mestizo peoples learned to play and make these instruments often giving them modified shapes and tunings. In addition to instruments, the Spanish introduced the concept of musical groups, which, in the colonial period, generally consisted of two violins, a harp and various guitars. This grouping gave rise to a number of folk musical styles in Mexico.[1]”
So, I think people think that we use mariachi-style music now at Mass, for Mexican inculturation, but in fact, the instruments we associate with mariachi are also European, and probably introduced later than Catholic liturgical music. In my opinion, the musical changes after Vat. II were less about inculturation, and more about making Mass more pop-styled, and presumably more appealing to the parishioners.
Thanks for typing up the book excerpt! I see what you mean, it isn’t terribly specific on the details of the music. I don’t know how familiar you are with the EF Mass? I’m just a little familiar with it, having read about it, and having attended just a few times. Knowing how specific the chants, the daily propers, etc are, I just can’t even imagine where they would have added any Aztec-style music. It just doesn’t make sense to me.
Also, here is what I found in Wikipedia about mariachi music:
“Prior to the arrival of the Spanish, indigenous music was played with rattles, drums, flutes and conch-shell horns as part of religious celebrations. The Spanish introduced violins, guitars, harps, brass instruments, and woodwinds which mostly replaced the native instruments. The European instruments were introduced to be used during Mass but were quickly adapted to secular events.[1][3] Indigenous and mestizo peoples learned to play and make these instruments often giving them modified shapes and tunings. In addition to instruments, the Spanish introduced the concept of musical groups, which, in the colonial period, generally consisted of two violins, a harp and various guitars. This grouping gave rise to a number of folk musical styles in Mexico.[1]”
So, I think people think that we use mariachi-style music now at Mass, for Mexican inculturation, but in fact, the instruments we associate with mariachi are also European, and probably introduced later than Catholic liturgical music. In my opinion, the musical changes after Vat. II were less about inculturation, and more about making Mass more pop-styled, and presumably more appealing to the parishioners.
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