Harmonization of the Nativity accounts

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I’m not against Catholicism. Indeed, I am getting confirmed this Easter. I would just like to point out, however, it seems to me inconsistent to hold that Scripture is inspired and yet that it also contains errors. How could the Holy Ghost “partially” inspire something? I admit, many passages are used allegorically or anagogically. This does not mean error though. It just means a certain mind ought to be assumed when reading it. The Gospels, however, have always and unanimously been held to be historical accounts and free from all error whatsoever. See Augustine on his harmonizing: newadvent.org/fathers/1602.htm
Well, if you are new to Catholicism I would encourage you to read and reflect on (and pray over) the Catechism para 50-141 which dealswith Catholic beliefs about Scripture.

This may help your inconsistencies.

Nowhere does the Catholic Church teach that the Holy Spirit partially inspires anything.

Again, according to Catholic teaching, the Gospels are not considered simply or fundamentally historical accounts free from any error whatsoever. In addition to the passages of the Catechism (if you need more evidence) please refer to the teaching on the historical truth of the Gospels here: catholic-resources.org/ChurchDocs/PBC_HistTruthFitzmyer.htm

Hope this helps. Best wishes on your journey into the Catholic faith.
 
This post is almost entirely a plagiarism from the Witherup book he recommended earlier in this thread. See page 40.

I’ll let patg wrap up what I’m saying by using his own words at the end of one of his posts full of plagiarism:

The point is that someone who presents one thing as if it were something else has a much easier time affixing the “fiction” label to a seemingly historical narrative.
Hi pete h
i find it a common occurrence on this forum that those catholics that defend the historicity of all the events mentioned in the infancy narratives seem to imply that those other catholics who view the infancy narratives as Gospel truth however view some of their elements as being used by the authors to demonstrate who Jesus was but not necessarily as all historical events as somehow in disagreement with the Catholic church itself. Is this your view or can in your opinion catholics disagree agreeably on this subject. Does it make someone less of a catholic to be in the ray brown et al camp on this one. I agree that it is impossible to state in the negative that the events in the infancy narratives arent historical however it seems the burden of proof is on the ones claiming they are.
John
 
The point is that someone who presents one thing as if it were something else has a much easier time affixing the “fiction” label to a seemingly historical narrative.
I appreciate your reminding me not to be so lazy in the future. I have taught and spoken many time in church classes, groups, and here of all the books I frequently recommend. I can repeat and paraphrase so much of them from memory that I have been neglecting to give proper credit to scholars much greater than myself and I apologize to everyone for this lapse.

But as for the subject, nothing I have said about the Infancy Narratives is opposed to any church teaching. Dei Verbum specifically states that we are to consider the literary form of each story and doing so makes it impossible for me (and many scholars) to treat these stories as literal historical accounts. There is clear evidence that parts of these stories exactly match the classical fictional literary form well known as the Infancy Narrative. There is also clear evidence that parts follow midrashic styles. There is no independent historical evidence to indiicate otherwise and there are even statements in the gospels themselves which cast strong doubts on any claims of historicity (who is this man…isn’t he just the son of the carpenter…?).

When one understands the literary form of the story, claims of historicity become pointless - at least to me and numerous respected authors of teh church. You are free to champion their historical nature and I (and numerous scholars, many writing under the imprimatur and nihil obstat) are free to read them differently. Fiction is NOT a synonym for lying.
 
Consider Mary being the source for the infancy narratives.
Mary’s role is open to speculation. There can be endless and ultimately unresolvable discussions about what if any historical role She had in their composition.

Fortunately, what we can rely on as Catholics is that God is the source for the inspired authors who composed the infancy narratives.
 
The virginal conception that both narratives discuss is thought to be an early tradition (much earlier due to the other differences in the narratives) that Matthew and luke received and is hard to explain away as something that was borrowed from pagan thought or expected by Jews of the Messiah based on the OT. Jews actually mocked Christians for their belief in the virginal conception because it was so foriegn to them.
 
The virginal conception that both narratives discuss is thought to be an early tradition (much earlier due to the other differences in the narratives) that Matthew and luke received and is hard to explain away as something that was borrowed from pagan thought or expected by Jews of the Messiah based on the OT. Jews actually mocked Christians for their belief in the virginal conception because it was so foriegn to them.
Now THAT would be an understatement. I don’t know of any culture that would be familiar with virginal conceptions! 😉

But, in retrospect, the Jews were familiar with the Greek Text of Isaiah and still felt that the prophecy of Isaiah 7:14 ("… and the Virgin shall conceive and bear a son…") was still unfilled. Now granted, they had no clue how that was going to occur, but Matthew did point out that this verse to prove that Jesus was indeed the Messiah.
 
But as for the subject, nothing I have said about the Infancy Narratives is opposed to any church teaching. Dei Verbum specifically states that we are to consider the literary form of each story and doing so makes it impossible for me (and many scholars) to treat these stories as literal historical accounts.
Thanks for the post Patg!

You seem to me to be limiting yourself to a few words of Dei Verbum and reading them as if they were written in a vacuum. Even the very sentence mentioning “literary forms” says that they are to be given attention as being one “among other things” that help us discern “what meaning the sacred writers really intended.” And we are also told that the “living tradition of the whole Church must be taken into account” (Art. 12), and that we are to apply the tools of Biblical exegesis in a manner that follows “the mind of the Church” (Art. 23).

Dei Verbum also states that the Gospels are historical and that the source material for the Gospels was selected “from [the apostles’] own memory and recollections, or from the witness of those who ‘themselves from the beginning were eyewitnesses’” (Art. 19). The difference between “memory and recollections,” as held by the Church on the one hand, and “imagination and invention,” as held by you on the other, is the difference between history and fiction.
There is clear evidence that parts of these stories exactly match the classical fictional literary form well known as the Infancy Narrative. There is also clear evidence that parts follow midrashic styles. There is no independent historical evidence to indiicate otherwise and there are even statements in the gospels themselves which cast strong doubts on any claims of historicity (who is this man…isn’t he just the son of the carpenter…?).
On the basis of examining which infancy narratives do you assign a fictional literary form to the canonical infancy narratives?

“Is not this the carpenter’s Son?” (Matthew 13:55; cf. Luke 4:22; John 6:42). How do these sayings contribute to appreciating the fictional character of the infancy narratives? The reason why it does this in your mind, I think, is that you have assumed the Gospels to be comprised of discreet and antinomically disparate subsections. But this quote from Matthew is best understood after comparison with a similar statement found in John’s Gospel: “Has not the Scripture said that the Christ comes from the offspring of David, and comes from Bethlehem, the village where David was?” (John 7:42) These are quite simply examples of dramatic irony, where the reader knows more than the historical figures in the narrative. The people think that Jesus is Joseph’s Son, just as they think that Jesus is not from Bethlehem or of David’s stock. But we the readers know better.
When one understands the literary form of the story, claims of historicity become pointless - at least to me and numerous respected authors of teh church. You are free to champion their historical nature and I (and numerous scholars, many writing under the imprimatur and nihil obstat) are free to read them differently. Fiction is NOT a synonym for lying.
Claims to historicity only become pointless when it has been proven that the composition under examination is in fact nonhistorical. From the little I’ve read of Margaret Nutting Ralph, she does not seem to draw the “fiction” conclusion that you draw. Of the Gospels she writes, “Neither can the Gospels be classified as history. This is not to say that the events reported in the Gospel never happened. They did. But the intent of the Gospel writers is not the intent of the historian. They are not trying to give an accurate historical account. Rather, they… report the events of Jesus’ lifetime in such a way as to make their significance fully realized only in hindsight, visible to their readers” (And God Said What?, p 168).

Which authors would you say you are following in drawing the conclusion that the infancy narratives are “mostly fiction”?

Your brother in Christ,
Pete
 
Hi pete h
i find it a common occurrence on this forum that those catholics that defend the historicity of all the events mentioned in the infancy narratives seem to imply that those other catholics who view the infancy narratives as Gospel truth however view some of their elements as being used by the authors to demonstrate who Jesus was but not necessarily as all historical events as somehow in disagreement with the Catholic church itself. Is this your view or can in your opinion catholics disagree agreeably on this subject. Does it make someone less of a catholic to be in the ray brown et al camp on this one. I agree that it is impossible to state in the negative that the events in the infancy narratives arent historical however it seems the burden of proof is on the ones claiming they are.
John
Greetings in the LORD, John.

Thank you for your question and for your patience. Do you have an example, from the infancy narratives, of something that strikes you as nonhistorical? I hope to be able to come back around to answering your question once we flesh out some examples.

I hope you have a blessed day!

In Christ,
Pete
 
But as for the subject, nothing I have said about the Infancy Narratives is opposed to any church teaching. Dei Verbum specifically states that we are to consider the literary form of each story and doing so makes it impossible for me (and many scholars) to treat these stories as literal historical accounts.
MANY papal encyclicals and the teaching of Councils has condemned attempts to suggest that the biblical accounts are in any way fictional. Some have been listed earlier in this thread. Those who find it impossible to believe the accounts in the bible should really be examining their faith.
There is clear evidence that parts of these stories exactly match the classical fictional literary form well known as the Infancy Narrative. There is also clear evidence that parts follow midrashic styles. There is no independent historical evidence to indiicate otherwise and there are even statements in the gospels themselves which cast strong doubts on any claims of historicity (who is this man…isn’t he just the son of the carpenter…?).
There is no such “evidence”. There are the strained suppositions of those on the road to rationalism and unbelief.
When one understands the literary form of the story, claims of historicity become pointless - at least to me and numerous respected authors of teh church. You are free to champion their historical nature and I (and numerous scholars, many writing under the imprimatur and nihil obstat) are free to read them differently. Fiction is NOT a synonym for lying.
OF COURSE Fiction is a synonym for lying. It is writing something that is NOT TRUE.

If you read the Fiction section of a library, you will find invented stories and characters. As has been said earlier, stories in a literary form in the New Testament, such as parables, and prophetic visions, are ALWAYS clearly identified as such within the text. The rest of the narrative is a historic account.
 
Is there anything in ANY of the early Church fathers, early Church documents, … that says the infancy narratives are not to be taken literally? It would seem that if they were not meant to be understood literally, there would be at least one of them somewhere that asserted they were not to be understood in that way – especially as the Christian populace understood them to be literal. I find it hard to believe that the Magisterium would have not have corrected, early on, such a false understanding on the part of the laity.
 
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