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misericordie
Guest
I take it you missed the part above where I mention that the Exorcist for the Diocese of Rome: father Gabrielle Amorth has sais the books/movie promote witchcraft.
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Michels
Guest
Anyone who has read the books can not deny the fact that Harry:
1)Lies to get out of trouble.
2)Breaks rules set by authority figures often.
3)Pressures others to break the rules.(not always by himself but with his friends often tempt others to break rules)
It is a book of rebellion. The book makes defying the rules fun and exciting, and following the rules boring.
And these things just don’t happen once in one of the books, but happen countless times throughout all the books. Of cource children love the books, they are about a boy that breaks the rules, gets to do what ever he wants and if he gets caught almost never gets the full punishment (multiple times he has done things that the rules say should kick him out of school). Harry goes out and does things adults tell him not to do and then later becomes a hero because of it and proves the adults wrong. What kid would not want to do that.
And just because there are a few nice lines in the book here and there, doesn’t mean that the whole book is good. At best it is a half-truth.
Another person uses half-truths to get people to go down the wrong path, and we all know who the prince of lies is…
1)Lies to get out of trouble.
2)Breaks rules set by authority figures often.
3)Pressures others to break the rules.(not always by himself but with his friends often tempt others to break rules)
It is a book of rebellion. The book makes defying the rules fun and exciting, and following the rules boring.
And these things just don’t happen once in one of the books, but happen countless times throughout all the books. Of cource children love the books, they are about a boy that breaks the rules, gets to do what ever he wants and if he gets caught almost never gets the full punishment (multiple times he has done things that the rules say should kick him out of school). Harry goes out and does things adults tell him not to do and then later becomes a hero because of it and proves the adults wrong. What kid would not want to do that.
And just because there are a few nice lines in the book here and there, doesn’t mean that the whole book is good. At best it is a half-truth.
Another person uses half-truths to get people to go down the wrong path, and we all know who the prince of lies is…
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Michels
Guest
The title of the first book was orignially “Harry Potter and the Philosopher’s Stone.” In the Encyclopedia of Occultism and Parapsychology, the Philosopher’s Stone is described as a legendary substance that supposedly enabled medieval alchemists to turn base metals into gold or silver. a by-product of the chemical procedure: the Elixir of Life. In the Harry Potter book one, they learn that the Philosopher’s Stone was created by Dumbledore’s partner in alchemy, Nicholas Flamel. Nicholas Flamel really existed. He was a French alchemist ho allegedly succeeded in making the Philosopher’s Stone in the late 1300s. Flamel’s wife in the book is her real name too. Rowling even correctly identifies the approximate era of their lives. The book takes place in the school year of 1991-1992. In book two it says that Flamel is 665 years old. 1991-665=1326, the year in which he was born.
Obviously, the nonsensical words used in the Potter books are not truly magical. Each spell is nothing but silly babble. However, the sorcerers of the Middle Ages and ancient Egypt also used gibberish terms. The Encyclopedia of Occultism and Parapsychology says, “The power of the spoken word was implicitly believed in by all primitive peoples, especially if it be in a language or dialect unknown to ordinary people.” The Harry potter books also talk about the importance to pronouncing the words correctly and placing emphasis in the correct place which are also important in real occult spells.
In book three, Sibyll Trelawney, the divination teacher coincidentally has the name of a title (Sibyl) given to women in ancient Greece and Rome who lived in caves and were renowned for their gifts of prophecy. In her class students learn:
1)palmistry
2)reading tea leaves
3)crystal ball gazing (also called scrying)
In this class Trelawney becomes a medium (she is possessed).
Classes at Hogwarts School last 7 years, like the London based Ordo Anno Mundi (OAM) occult school.
Classes at OAM - “Ancient Runes”
Hogwarts - (prisoner of askaban, p. 57) “Those are my books for … Divination, the Study of Ancient Runes”
OAM - “Divination”
Hogwarts - (prisoner of askaban, p. 103) “We will be covering the basic methods of Divination this year.”
OAM - “Spellcasting”
Hogwarts - (Sorcerer’s Stone, p. 66) “All students should have a copy of each of the following: The Standard book of spells…”
OAM - “Animal Transformation”
Hogwarts - (Sorcerer’s Stone, p. 134) “Transfiguration is some of the most complex and dangerous magic you will learn at Hogwarts”
I could go on, but this is long enough to get the point across.
K
kamz
Guest
I just bought the first book for my almost 10 year old son today at a rummage sale, he is real excited 
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Irene
Guest
Being a teen who has (kind of) outgrown the HP books, and who did not need them to nourish her voracious appetite for books by any means, I’d say that the one thing disturbing to me is the Transfiguration class at Hogwarts. There is an obvious parallel between the subject and the Transfiguration of Christ, where Elijah and Moses appear with Him on the mountain top. *However, *the students learn how to turn rats into snuffboxes, for goodness’ sake – if a kid realizes that or has it pointed out to him/her, the difference in degree will be obvious.
Finally, Dumbledore is a firm, constant moral leader, and father-figure for Harry!
Finally, Dumbledore is a firm, constant moral leader, and father-figure for Harry!
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Shiann
Guest
An article:
americandaily.com/article/4593
Responding to the Alchemy charge:
crossroad.to/articles2/04/harry-granger.htm
"Understanding the Harry Potter books as alchemical writing in the tradition of the English ‘Greats’ will explain otherwise bizarre events, plot turns, and names in the novels…
"The alchemist, like all traditional or non-modern people, understood man to be essentially spirit (as man is created by the Spirit), then soul, then physical body… His personhood or humanity he knew to be a joining of soul and body without seam—and his tragedy was that he was fallen, i.e., that he had lost his spiritual capacity or intellectus, by means of which Adam walked and talked with God in the garden. Alchemy was the means, in conjunction with the mysteries of the Church, by which he could regain this lost capacity. The substance changing from lead to gold was his soul, and the riches he would glean were spiritual riches—holiness and immortality.
"It is essentially a super-conscious or spiritual work that happens through correspondence with archetypes that are above, not below, individual consciousness.
"So what was alchemy? It was a traditional or sacred science, supporting the work of the revealed tradition and its means of grace, for the purification and perfection of the alchemist’s soul in correspondence with the metallurgical perfection of a base metal into gold…
"Rowling clearly understands both ‘alchemy in literature’ and the ‘alchemy of literature.’ Her books satisfy the need in us, born in a profane culture without heroes or avenues of transcendent experience…
**
The Catholic Church Stands up for Harry Potter:
film.guardian.co.uk/news/story/0,12589,888638,00.html
The HP debate is a hot one. But I want to note two things here. I think for every Catholic Official who does NOT like HP, there is one that thinks it is ok. Does that make it right? I wouldn’t go that far, but it certainly does present a problem since the Church cannot come to an agreement on it.
And since there is no specific ban on the books, and since I can provide evidence that it is more Christian like LOTR and Narnia compared to a Salmon Rushdie book I choose to allow my child to read the books.
Does that mean the books are for every child- certainly not. There are stories that are not for every child. (I remember lending my red tights to my brother so he could be Superman…for MONTHS)
But I can use HP as a teaching tool in POSITIVE ways and have.
I commend those parents on making that discernment for their children, but I do not think that those of us who do allow the stories in their homes should be painted in a negative light. No more so anyway than the Church officials who find HP a fantastic children’s story…
americandaily.com/article/4593
Responding to the Alchemy charge:
crossroad.to/articles2/04/harry-granger.htm
"Understanding the Harry Potter books as alchemical writing in the tradition of the English ‘Greats’ will explain otherwise bizarre events, plot turns, and names in the novels…
"The alchemist, like all traditional or non-modern people, understood man to be essentially spirit (as man is created by the Spirit), then soul, then physical body… His personhood or humanity he knew to be a joining of soul and body without seam—and his tragedy was that he was fallen, i.e., that he had lost his spiritual capacity or intellectus, by means of which Adam walked and talked with God in the garden. Alchemy was the means, in conjunction with the mysteries of the Church, by which he could regain this lost capacity. The substance changing from lead to gold was his soul, and the riches he would glean were spiritual riches—holiness and immortality.
"It is essentially a super-conscious or spiritual work that happens through correspondence with archetypes that are above, not below, individual consciousness.
"So what was alchemy? It was a traditional or sacred science, supporting the work of the revealed tradition and its means of grace, for the purification and perfection of the alchemist’s soul in correspondence with the metallurgical perfection of a base metal into gold…
"Rowling clearly understands both ‘alchemy in literature’ and the ‘alchemy of literature.’ Her books satisfy the need in us, born in a profane culture without heroes or avenues of transcendent experience…
Code:
"We get this experience in our identification with Harry, and we are better, more human even, for having been at least for a while in the alembic vessel, changing from spiritual lead to gold, dying and rising from the dead. In brief, Rowling’s novels are so popular because her works transform the human person via imaginative identification, catharsis, and **resurrection**." *[Emphasis added]*The Catholic Church Stands up for Harry Potter:
film.guardian.co.uk/news/story/0,12589,888638,00.html
The HP debate is a hot one. But I want to note two things here. I think for every Catholic Official who does NOT like HP, there is one that thinks it is ok. Does that make it right? I wouldn’t go that far, but it certainly does present a problem since the Church cannot come to an agreement on it.
And since there is no specific ban on the books, and since I can provide evidence that it is more Christian like LOTR and Narnia compared to a Salmon Rushdie book I choose to allow my child to read the books.
Does that mean the books are for every child- certainly not. There are stories that are not for every child. (I remember lending my red tights to my brother so he could be Superman…for MONTHS)
But I can use HP as a teaching tool in POSITIVE ways and have.
I commend those parents on making that discernment for their children, but I do not think that those of us who do allow the stories in their homes should be painted in a negative light. No more so anyway than the Church officials who find HP a fantastic children’s story…
K
Katie1723
Guest
Please…no more Harry Potter!
~ Kathy ~
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sanpablo
Guest
Ok, please tell me anywhere that Jesus says you have to follow rules set by “authority” figures. At school, if I want to eat during class when I’m starving but I’m not “allowed” to, is there anything wrong with going against the rules to eat? Please read Matthew 12.
When Harry breaks the rules or lies (you must not have been paying attention) it is in order to save someone’s life, and the rules are stupid rules anyway. In case you don’t remember, all the Christian saints didn’t exactly follow rules set by “authority” figures, nor did Jesus.
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Nan_S
Guest
I am more aligned with Michels on Harry Potter. For children who are not actively involved in Christianity, these books contain genuine hazards. How many kids besotten by Harry Potter have ever been properly instructed in the absolute bans on magic found in both the Holy Bible and the Catechism of the Catholic Church?
How many parents who buy these books know that when an early interviewer asked J. K. Rowling point-blank, “Are you a Christian?” she dodged the question by answering, “If you mean, do I believe in god, yes.” But since then she has absolutely refused to elaborate on her definition of “god.” If she has ever signed her name to a church membership registry, no one seems to know which.
My kids were given a copy of the first book by a very pious Catholic relative. On the surface it seemed a mere comical adventure story, no more threatening than Alfred Hitchcock and old ghost stories. Books #2 and #3 continued along the same lines, albiet stepping up the occult dabbling one insidious step at a time.
Book #4 comes out and whammo - Harry has escalated his witchcraft to necromancy, summoning the spirits of his dead parents to fight the evil wizard. If you read the First Book of Samuel, chapter 28, you find that Saul tried the same thing and God had him killed within 24 hours.
I notice it took an extra two years for book #5 to come out, and much of the occult trappings were considerably toned down. I wonder how much re-writing her publisher made her do before he would accept the final draft…
The nicest thing I can say about the Harry Potter series is that it has made my kids open to receiving biblical and catechetical instruction on the occult.
How many parents who buy these books know that when an early interviewer asked J. K. Rowling point-blank, “Are you a Christian?” she dodged the question by answering, “If you mean, do I believe in god, yes.” But since then she has absolutely refused to elaborate on her definition of “god.” If she has ever signed her name to a church membership registry, no one seems to know which.
My kids were given a copy of the first book by a very pious Catholic relative. On the surface it seemed a mere comical adventure story, no more threatening than Alfred Hitchcock and old ghost stories. Books #2 and #3 continued along the same lines, albiet stepping up the occult dabbling one insidious step at a time.
Book #4 comes out and whammo - Harry has escalated his witchcraft to necromancy, summoning the spirits of his dead parents to fight the evil wizard. If you read the First Book of Samuel, chapter 28, you find that Saul tried the same thing and God had him killed within 24 hours.
I notice it took an extra two years for book #5 to come out, and much of the occult trappings were considerably toned down. I wonder how much re-writing her publisher made her do before he would accept the final draft…
The nicest thing I can say about the Harry Potter series is that it has made my kids open to receiving biblical and catechetical instruction on the occult.
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sanpablo
Guest
Nan S:
Secondly, in book 4, Harry doesn’t actually summon the spirits of his parents-their forms came out of Voldemort’s wand, it has something to do with the people that Voldemort had killed, and if you had actually read the book, you would know that Harry didn’t actually summon them, and he does nothing anywhere close to necromancy. Please don’t put what happens in the book in your own words to try and prove something you know isn’t true. I think the kind of magic you’re talking about that the bible says no to is the satanic kind, not the harmless children’s fantasy book kind.
First, to further elaborate on my last post, in Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban, he accidentally does something very against the law. When he is talking to the minister of magic about it, the minister doesn’t say anything about punishment and Harry says, “Hang on!..What about my punishment?..I broke the law!” Wow. That sounds very much like he’s lying to get out of trouble doesn’t it?
Secondly, in book 4, Harry doesn’t actually summon the spirits of his parents-their forms came out of Voldemort’s wand, it has something to do with the people that Voldemort had killed, and if you had actually read the book, you would know that Harry didn’t actually summon them, and he does nothing anywhere close to necromancy. Please don’t put what happens in the book in your own words to try and prove something you know isn’t true. I think the kind of magic you’re talking about that the bible says no to is the satanic kind, not the harmless children’s fantasy book kind.
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Lissla_Lissar
Guest
I don’t really like them. There doesn’t seem to be much action=consequence. The magic doesn’t really bother me, but the fact that Harry seems like a poor role model does.
I’ve only read the first four, and it was a couple years ago, but it seemed to me that Harry spent a lot of time being a sullen brat, avoiding work, and being rewarded for it. Also, most of the adults seem either oblivious or actively bad/stupid.
The writing also isn’t terrific.
In most of my favourite children’s fantasy, good actions equal good consequences, and, conversely, bad actions equal bad consequences. Edmund betrays Aslan, and Aslan dies. Will listens to the Dark, and loses the Lady to the powers of evil. Frodo pities and forgives Gollum, and redemption begins. I don’t see that same moral sense in Harry Potter.
It’s the same sort of problem I have with the His Dark Materials series. Anyone read that? It starts with The Golden Compass.
I’ve only read the first four, and it was a couple years ago, but it seemed to me that Harry spent a lot of time being a sullen brat, avoiding work, and being rewarded for it. Also, most of the adults seem either oblivious or actively bad/stupid.
The writing also isn’t terrific.
In most of my favourite children’s fantasy, good actions equal good consequences, and, conversely, bad actions equal bad consequences. Edmund betrays Aslan, and Aslan dies. Will listens to the Dark, and loses the Lady to the powers of evil. Frodo pities and forgives Gollum, and redemption begins. I don’t see that same moral sense in Harry Potter.
It’s the same sort of problem I have with the His Dark Materials series. Anyone read that? It starts with The Golden Compass.
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Nan_S
Guest
I have read all 5 books. Thoroughly. Every word. Don’t give Harry a free pass just because he did not originally intend this. He still did it.
This is a slippery slope. Watch your footing.
Catechism of the Catholic Church 2116 All forms of divination are to be rejected: recourse to Satan or demons, conjuring up the dead or other practices falsely supposed to “unveil” the future. Consulting horoscopes, astrology, palm reading, interpretation of omens and lots, the phenomena of clairvoyance, and recourse to mediums all conceal a desire for power over time, history, and, in the last analysis, other human beings, as well as a wish to conciliate hidden powers. They contradict the honor, respect, and loving fear that we owe to God alone.
***2117 *All practices of magic or sorcery, by which one attempts to tame occult powers, so as to place them at one’s service and have a supernatural power over others - even if this were for the sake of restoring their health - are gravely contrary to the virtue of religion. These practices are even more to be condemned when accompanied by the intention of harming someone, or when they have recourse to the intervention of demons. Wearing charms is also reprehensible. Spiritism often implies divination or magical practices; the Church for her part warns the faithful against it. Recourse to so-called traditional cures does not justify either the invocation of evil powers or the exploitation of another’s credulity.
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Michels
Guest
Since people have been talking about so called “good magick” and “bad magick” I think this should be addressed. I used magick with a “K” to make sure people know I am talking about the stuff that pertains to the supernatural, occult stuff. Not the magic that is hand tricks stage performers do at birthday parties.
Anyone who is a devot Christian should understand that there is one God. That everything that is good comes from Him.
Conjuring up the dead or other practices falsely supposed to “unveil” the future. Consulting horoscopes, astrology, palm reading, interpretation of omens and lots, the phenomena of clairvoyance, and recourse to mediums are all occult practices that call on the spirit world. In the spirit world, there are good spirits (those of God) and evil spirits (those not of God). Since God strickly forbids occult practices, it is obvious that it is evil spirits(demons) you are communicating with. And once you open the lines of communication with them, you just invited a demon into your daily life.
Now before people who have dabbled in the occult start replying saying this isn’t true, it is true. The thing is the demon doesn’t want you to know that it is always with you because then it knows you will try to get rid of it. The only time it lets itself be known is when you call on it, or try to get rid of it. And if you try to get rid of it please have a priest there! I have seen things get bad, and having to wait for a priest to come after it has gotten out of control is not a fun wait.
The thing that is bad about Harry Potter is that it paints a picture that the occult isn’t bad, that it is actually fun. I am not saying all kids that read the books are going to get involved with the occult, but if the kid really enjoyed the book and is getting tired of waiting for the next book, where do you think many will look for on the internet to find more occult fun. That is where the problem is, not that reading the book is a sin. Information isn’t bad, its what you do with it. Our kids are very impressionable.
Anyone who is a devot Christian should understand that there is one God. That everything that is good comes from Him.
Conjuring up the dead or other practices falsely supposed to “unveil” the future. Consulting horoscopes, astrology, palm reading, interpretation of omens and lots, the phenomena of clairvoyance, and recourse to mediums are all occult practices that call on the spirit world. In the spirit world, there are good spirits (those of God) and evil spirits (those not of God). Since God strickly forbids occult practices, it is obvious that it is evil spirits(demons) you are communicating with. And once you open the lines of communication with them, you just invited a demon into your daily life.
Now before people who have dabbled in the occult start replying saying this isn’t true, it is true. The thing is the demon doesn’t want you to know that it is always with you because then it knows you will try to get rid of it. The only time it lets itself be known is when you call on it, or try to get rid of it. And if you try to get rid of it please have a priest there! I have seen things get bad, and having to wait for a priest to come after it has gotten out of control is not a fun wait.
The thing that is bad about Harry Potter is that it paints a picture that the occult isn’t bad, that it is actually fun. I am not saying all kids that read the books are going to get involved with the occult, but if the kid really enjoyed the book and is getting tired of waiting for the next book, where do you think many will look for on the internet to find more occult fun. That is where the problem is, not that reading the book is a sin. Information isn’t bad, its what you do with it. Our kids are very impressionable.
D
deb1
Guest
I would like to very gently and respectfully point out, we are not talking about good and bad magic. We are talking about the difference between make believe and reality.
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Michels
Guest
The thing that is bad about Harry Potter is that it paints a picture that the occult isn’t bad, that it is actually fun. I am not saying all kids that read the books are going to get involved with the occult, but if the kid really enjoyed the book and is getting tired of waiting for the next book, where do you think many will look for on the internet to find more occult fun. That is where the problem is, not that reading the book is a sin. Information isn’t bad, its what you do with it. Our kids are very impressionable.I would like to very gently and respectfully point out, we are not talking about good and bad magic. We are talking about the difference between make believe and reality.
M
momathome
Guest
My family loves the Harry Potter books! I had heard the ‘witchcraft’ warnings, and was none too eager for my children to read them. But those warnings are really coming from the wrong place, IMHO. I highly recommend John Grangers books, or at least his website:
hogwartsprofessor.com/home.php
And here is an article he wrote for Touchstone Magazine:
touchstonemag.com/archives/article.php?id=16-09-034-f
Since we homeschool our children using the classical method I really appreciate someone taking the time to explain HP from a Christian point of view and from a great books/literature point of view. Many people nowadays are not familiar enough with such literature to see many of the connections that John Granger has, although I doubt every theory of his is completely on target.
And the HP books have made my children a little more enthusiastic about learning their latin! JK Rowling might actually make Latin a ‘cool subject’
Momathome
hogwartsprofessor.com/home.php
And here is an article he wrote for Touchstone Magazine:
touchstonemag.com/archives/article.php?id=16-09-034-f
Since we homeschool our children using the classical method I really appreciate someone taking the time to explain HP from a Christian point of view and from a great books/literature point of view. Many people nowadays are not familiar enough with such literature to see many of the connections that John Granger has, although I doubt every theory of his is completely on target.
And the HP books have made my children a little more enthusiastic about learning their latin! JK Rowling might actually make Latin a ‘cool subject’
Momathome
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Melissa
Guest
No, the problem is critics of Harry Potter who do not have a firm grasp of the difference between fiction and non-fiction. The wizarding world of Harry Potter is strictly fiction, and has nothing to do with non-fiction occult. When my child (only the oldest has read the books) is waiting for the next volume, he heads off to the rest of the fiction section in the library.
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sanpablo
Guest
Intersting how the main reason that Harry wasn’t killed by Voldemort when he was a baby was because of his mother’s love for him.
W
wisdom_3_5
Guest
Lissla Lissar:
I really enjoy the books and I think there is more to them than just a story. I also think its the perspective in which you look at them. If you want to see evil & occult you will however there are MANY Christian symbols and themes woven throughout the books. I highly recommend the John Granger book Looking for God in Harry Potter. Here is a link to an article he did just to give you a taste of what he writes about in the book.
touchstonemag.com/docs/issues/16.9docs/16-9pg34.html
Can’t wait for the next book to come out!
Ummm, in the 5th book his godfather, who he loves, dies because of his actions and Harry does realize it.
I really enjoy the books and I think there is more to them than just a story. I also think its the perspective in which you look at them. If you want to see evil & occult you will however there are MANY Christian symbols and themes woven throughout the books. I highly recommend the John Granger book Looking for God in Harry Potter. Here is a link to an article he did just to give you a taste of what he writes about in the book.
touchstonemag.com/docs/issues/16.9docs/16-9pg34.html
Can’t wait for the next book to come out!
H
HpyCatholic
Guest
Just curious, for those against the Harry Potter books for the magic used, what do you folks think about Dungeons and Dragons type stuff for children? There is alot of magic in those types of games, are those bad too? Then also what about the Lord of the Rings trilogy? There are wizards and some magic in that is well. Just curious what you think.
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