Harry Potter is back again...;-)

[styrgwillidar]

Well, I am looking forward to seeing the movie, but apprehensive that a lot of the christian themes and points will be lost in the adaptation to film.

Greetings again Lost Wanderer and (name removed by moderator). You may remember me from a few of those other HP threads. Lost Wanderer, did you ever manage to read the Deathly Hallows and consider some of the points I mentioned on what I thought Rowlings was trying to convey?

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

Lost Wanderer, did you ever manage to read the Deathly Hallows and consider some of the points I mentioned on what I thought Rowlings was trying to convey?

Yeah I finally finished it a few months ago. As to what you asked me before though, I’m afraid I forgot. Could you ask them again?

 

[styrgwillidar]

Well, if I remember correctly, I was considering whether each Horcrux represented something folks become overly attached to in this life and that therefore the person/manner each was destroyed was significant. For example Nagini being representative of those who over-value nature over man being destroyed by Longbottom whose strength is use of nature via herbology. The Tiara representative of earthly wisdom being destroyed by fiendfyre used by Voldemorts allies who unleash something beyond their knowledge and control.

Also that that the sequence when Harry is knocked out by Voldemert is meant to show that the ghosts of Harry’s friends and family who come to him are symbolic of the effect that our actions have beyond our lives- in this case to the good. Dumbledore mentions this in Prisoner of Aze Then, the line at the end from Dumbledore along the lines of " … of course this is happening in your head but what makes you think that means it isn’t real. Than, even after using the “resurrection stone” the spirits assure Harry they can only be seen by him. Just seems an interesting contrast with the ghosts of Hogwarts who lacked the courage to “go on” and can be seen by everyone.

 

[ESMDHokie77]

Well, if I remember correctly, I was considering whether each Horcrux represented something folks become overly attached to in this life and that therefore the person/manner each was destroyed was significant. For example Nagini being representative of those who over-value nature over man being destroyed by Longbottom whose strength is use of nature via herbology. The Tiara representative of earthly wisdom being destroyed by fiendfyre used by Voldemorts allies who unleash something beyond their knowledge and control.

Also that that the sequence when Harry is knocked out by Voldemert is meant to show that the ghosts of Harry’s friends and family who come to him are symbolic of the effect that our actions have beyond our lives- in this case to the good. Dumbledore mentions this in Prisoner of Aze Then, the line at the end from Dumbledore along the lines of " … of course this is happening in your head but what makes you think that means it isn’t real. Than, even after using the “resurrection stone” the spirits assure Harry they can only be seen by him. Just seems an interesting contrast with the ghosts of Hogwarts who lacked the courage to “go on” and can be seen by everyone.

Excellent intepretations!

 

[Theophilus777]

Another thing to consider about the Potter books is the quality of content. There is nutritious food and there is junk food. A little bit of junk food on occasion will not hurt the average person, but a steady diet of it will kill you. I think we’re all too well aware that some stories, be they books, movies, or TV shows, can benefit us and teach us good things or mislead us and teach us bad things. If a person can be good or bad company, then so can fictional characters and their personalities, depending on the amount of time we spend with them and how important they are to us.
One of the reasons why in a prior post I suggested that children under 18 should not read the Potter books is because they are malleable and are not fully formed in their character. What parent would permit their daughter to hang out with a 17 year old drug dealer? I don’t need to tell anyone why this would not be a good thing. But when we let our kids read and watch the Potter stories, who are these “people” who they are spending time with and what kind of an influence are they having in their lives? This is not exclusive to Harry Potter. This is inclusive of everything in our culture. This is why we don’t let our kids do whatever they want, and that includes the music and fiction and movies that are out there.
The Potter stories are junk food. You can certainly find all sorts of examples of virtue but they are mixed in with a goop of the occult and other undesirable influences which even if they did not lead a child into a curiosity about the occult, does NOT lead them into a deeper faith in Christ nor embellishes their life in the Church. You can talk about what is in the Potter stories all you like, but it is equally a matter of what is not in the Potter stories.
A litmus test would be the amount of time your child spends with Potter in proportion to the amount of time your child spends in prayer, in scripture reading, in reading the lives of the Saints, in attendance at Mass, in praying the rosary, or in any number of works of mercy or service to others.
Some people, children or adults, are casual readers of Potter. They don’t spend vast amounts of time online in RP chatrooms or with fan fiction or don’t actively seek out other title in the juvenile/occult fiction genre. Or do they? Discuss the content all you want but does your child interpret the stories in their correlation to Catholic Christianity or are they forming an entirely separate world view which is exclusive of the words and examples of the saints and church fathers, as well as your own word and example or that of any upstanding member of your parish?
Is Harry Potter becoming a substitute for something in your child’s life that isn’t there but should be? And I might add, there are other things we can possibly substitute for a genuine living out of our faith. There are a million alternatives to spending time in prayer or in works of mercy. Reading or watching or thinking about Harry Potter is certainly not the only one.
Why do we have so few American saints? The saints made choices which impacted the world for Christ. Will your child do likewise after reading/watching Harry Potter?
What *do *you want your child to grow up to become?

 

[Catholic90]

Oh my gosh.

What parent would permit their daughter to hang out with a 17 year old drug dealer?.. But when we let our kids read and watch the Potter stories, who are these “people” who they are spending time with and what kind of an influence are they having in their lives? …

Are you even REMOTELY insinuating the Potter people are like drug dealers?? Seriously? If you spent time with the Potter people, you might get to know them!**

The Potter stories are junk food. You can certainly find all sorts of examples of virtue but they are mixed in with a goop of the occult and other undesirable influences which even if they did not lead a child into a curiosity about the occult, does NOT lead them into a deeper faith in Christ nor embellishes their life in the Church. …

The occult is NOT present in HP. This has been discussed ad nauseum. There is NO OCCULT in HP.

Discuss the content all you want but does your child interpret the stories in their correlation to Catholic Christianity or are they forming an entirely separate world view which is exclusive of the words and examples of the saints and church fathers, as well as your own word and example or that of any upstanding member of your parish?
…
Does EVERYTHING anyone reads or watch have to lead directly to discussions of the Church? Books and movies can be watched for pure entertainment value. Each one does not have to end with a discussion of Church. HOWEVER, since you brought it up, have you actually read book 7 or seen the recent movie? If not, you should. You might be surprised at the parallels between the HP story and Christianity.

 What *do *you want your child to grow up to become?

Happy, successful, educated, well-read, and faith-filled. So far, they are happy, they are faith-filled, (despite having read HP multiple times and having viewed all the movies), they read voraciously (all sorts of matter), and they are successful students.

 

[Ter1]

 Is Harry Potter becoming a substitute for something in your child's life that isn't there but should be?  And I might add, there are other things we can possibly substitute for a genuine living out of our faith.  There are a million alternatives to spending time in prayer or in works of mercy.  Reading or watching or thinking about Harry Potter is certainly not the only one.
 Why do we have so few American saints?  The saints made choices which impacted the world for Christ.  Will your child do likewise after reading/watching Harry Potter?

 What *do *you want your child to grow up to become?

To respond to this idea that something that isn’t directly Christian shouldn’t be read:
The vast cycle of Irish mythology is full of magic, demi-gods, curses, blood (counting heads taken by heros) etc - These were first written down way back in 6th-8th century (I’m not sure of the date) by Christian Monks. No one would ever accuse those Celtic Monks of being slack Christians (in fact most modern commentators think they were a bit too enthusiastic ). They didn’t think those stories shouldn’t be recorded and told to future generations - though after recording the Tain (the Cuchulain stories) the copier put in a footnote along the lines on “this is the stupidest story I’ve ever seen”.

 

[agnes_therese]

The Potter stories are junk food . . . even if they did not lead a child into a curiosity about the occult, does NOT lead them into a deeper faith in Christ nor embellishes their life in the Church.

Can’t read fairy tales, The Velveteen Rabbit, Winnie the Pooh, Little Women, Gulliver’s Travels, Alice in Wonderland, The Wizard of Oz, Peter Pan . . . what an impoverished childhood.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

The Potter stories are junk food. You can certainly find all sorts of examples of virtue but they are mixed in with a goop of the occult and other undesirable influences which even if they did not lead a child into a curiosity about the occult, does NOT lead them into a deeper faith in Christ nor embellishes their life in the Church.

Does everything have to be for the sake of religion just to be good enough for you? For goodness sake, even JP2 went skiing and hiking for leisure and B16 plays piano during his spare time. I don’t see how that is any different than curling up with a good book.

A litmus test would be the amount of time your child spends with Potter in proportion to the amount of time your child spends in prayer, in scripture reading, in reading the lives of the Saints, in attendance at Mass, in praying the rosary, or in any number of works of mercy or service to others.

The Rosary is not a requirement of the Church so I don’t see why you have to foist it upon people’s children as if it were. Mass is a requirement but seriously, one hour every Sunday hardly takes up a person’s spare time. Prayer also comes in many forms so I wouldn’t be quick to judge people just because you don’t see them spend their time mostly on their knees at the adoration chapel. You want your kids engaging in works of mercy of service? Tell them to get a job. Problem solved.

Some people, children or adults, are casual readers of Potter. They don’t spend vast amounts of time online in RP chatrooms or with fan fiction or don’t actively seek out other title in the juvenile/occult fiction genre. Or do they?

What’s wrong with that? I’m a writer and I started out with fanfiction. I know plenty others just like me.

You best beware of your opposition to such activities. What if your child wants to grow up to be a writer too? I’d shudder to think what would have happened to Lord of the Rings if Tolkien’s parents suddenly thought like you did.

Discuss the content all you want but does your child interpret the stories in their correlation to Catholic Christianity or are they forming an entirely separate world view which is exclusive of the words and examples of the saints and church fathers, as well as your own word and example or that of any upstanding member of your parish?

What the heck is enrolling your kids in a Catechism class for if you’re worried about them having different moral views? A fun fact from literary criticism: You don’t get moral views from reading fiction. Reading fiction imposes your pre-established moral views.

Reading or watching or thinking about Harry Potter is certainly not the only one.

It’s not that hard to get a fan of Harry Potter to expand his/her horizons. Heck I was a Pokemon fan before I started getting more invested in my anime hobby. Give it time. Just point your kids to other similar works like Lord of the Rings or some other activities they might like. You never know what they’ll love next.

What *do *you want your child to grow up to become?

A decent human being.

 

[Theophilus777]

*The occult is NOT present in HP. This has been discussed ad nauseum. There is NO OCCULT in HP.
*

Witchcraft is not the occult? Do you know what witchcraft is? Witchcraft is the desire for the power(which is most often the case) or the power to manipulate creation in ways which directly exclude God. You can find examples all throughout the Old Testament. And it is strictly forbidden.

Tell me, does talking to ghosts or spirits of the deceased have any correlation with divination, and what does the Bible, as well as Church tradition, have to say about divination?

The problem with your post is that all of your underlying assumptions are in error, and thus your conclusions are wrong. I suggest you buy a copy of the Catechism if you don’t already have it and try to put as much time into studying it and applying it to your life as you have obviously put into Rowling’s abominable fiction.

No fictional story takes precedence over Scripture and Church teaching in the life of a Catholic. I suggest that you study the truth that endures. I would like to comment further on your response at a later time, being that I am somewhat busy at the moment. Perhaps today or tomorrow.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

Witchcraft is not the occult? Do you know what witchcraft is? Witchcraft is the desire for the power(which is most often the case) or the power to manipulate creation in ways which directly exclude God. You can find examples all throughout the Old Testament. And it is strictly forbidden.

So I guess that rules out science then? We manipulate the power of lightning to light our homes and run our computers. We harness the power of earth to fuel our cars. You don’t need to recite a prayer to do that either.

Wow I never knew science was so occult and forbidden.

Tell me, does talking to ghosts or spirits of the deceased have any correlation with divination, and what does the Bible, as well as Church tradition, have to say about divination?

How is it divination when said ghosts shows themselves to everybody and are treated like everyday phenomenon?

The problem with your post is that all of your underlying assumptions are in error, and thus your conclusions are wrong.

Actually this more applies to you.

I suggest you buy a copy of the Catechism if you don’t already have it and try to put as much time into studying it and applying it to your life as you have obviously put into Rowling’s abominable fiction.

And I suggest you take a crash course in distinguishing fact from fiction.

No fictional story takes precedence over Scripture and Church teaching in the life of a Catholic. I suggest that you study the truth that endures. I would like to comment further on your response at a later time, being that I am somewhat busy at the moment. Perhaps today or tomorrow.

Nobody’s saying that. Unfortunately for you, Church teaching has nothing to say on the topic of fantasy fiction.

 

[Theophilus777]

I was first challenged to read Harry Potter by a relative who swore by Rowling’s works as Christian themed stories. The problem is that, yes, you can find Christian themes in Harry Potter. You can also find Christian themes in every heresy that has attacked the church since the first century. What better way to package a lie than to disguise it as the truth? So you discover a document that has lots to say about Jesus but denies His divinity. Does that make it Christian? According to the logic of some posting here, it does. But a heresy is a heresy and a lie is a lie.
We live in a fallen world because Eve talked to a snake. So it’s little surprise that in our currently fallen world we have become enamored of a story about a boy who talks to snakes. Deception and false teaching are nothing new to the Church. We’ve been dealing with this sort of thing for thousands of years. We’re dealing with it today.
There were those who were trying to pass off The Matrix as a Christian movie, but the story was little more than a gnostic heresy. The devil is not an idiot. If he wants to poison you with a lie he will dress it up to look like something good. He does this because he knows full well that you will not eat poison of your own volition.
The Harry Potter stories are poisonous not because Harry talks to snakes but because he does not question the lies. Let’s hope our children won’t, by our own passivity, learn to love the lies before they are ever really exposed to the truth.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

You can also find Christian themes in every heresy that has attacked the church since the first century. What better way to package a lie than to disguise it as the truth?

Great, yet another anti-Potter/anti-fantasy poster immediately resorting to false comparisons.

You do realize that the difference between Harry Potter and heretical document is that the former is simply fiction while the latter actually tries to teach something as true? Think hard on it, it’ll come to you.

We live in a fallen world because Eve talked to a snake. So it’s little surprise that in our currently fallen world we have become enamored of a story about a boy who talks to snakes.

Oh so giving a guy the power to talk to snakes is a bad thing? Wow, I didn’t know being able to talk to a certain type of animal somehow counts as immoral.

There were those who were trying to pass off The Matrix as a Christian movie, but the story was little more than a gnostic heresy.

Please know that when it comes to interpreting fiction, there is no absolute. You view it as a gnostic heresy, others see Christian themes in it. In the end, nobody is anymore right than the other. It’s all a matter of perspective.

The Harry Potter stories are poisonous not because Harry talks to snakes but because he does not question the lies. Let’s hope our children won’t, by our own passivity, learn to love the lies before they are ever really exposed to the truth.

And these lies… are?

 

[agnes_therese]

The Harry Potter stories are poisonous. . .QUOTE]

Lessons on true loyalty, on growing up, on dealing with losses, and most of all, on **doing what is right even when that’s the hardest thing to do **-- poisonous, according to you.

Nonsense.

 

[cristyd]

I honestly loved the books and movies. They are just stories for children. And before you critise it please take a look at a review from Catholic News

catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/1102767.htm

 

[Luvz2travel]

Another thing to consider about the Potter books is the quality of content. There is nutritious food and there is junk food. A little bit of junk food on occasion will not hurt the average person, but a steady diet of it will kill you. I think we’re all too well aware that some stories, be they books, movies, or TV shows, can benefit us and teach us good things or mislead us and teach us bad things. If a person can be good or bad company, then so can fictional characters and their personalities, depending on the amount of time we spend with them and how important they are to us.
One of the reasons why in a prior post I suggested that children under 18 should not read the Potter books is because they are malleable and are not fully formed in their character. What parent would permit their daughter to hang out with a 17 year old drug dealer? I don’t need to tell anyone why this would not be a good thing. But when we let our kids read and watch the Potter stories, who are these “people” who they are spending time with and what kind of an influence are they having in their lives? This is not exclusive to Harry Potter. This is inclusive of everything in our culture. This is why we don’t let our kids do whatever they want, and that includes the music and fiction and movies that are out there.
The Potter stories are junk food. You can certainly find all sorts of examples of virtue but they are mixed in with a goop of the occult and other undesirable influences which even if they did not lead a child into a curiosity about the occult, does NOT lead them into a deeper faith in Christ nor embellishes their life in the Church. You can talk about what is in the Potter stories all you like, but it is equally a matter of what is not in the Potter stories.
A litmus test would be the amount of time your child spends with Potter in proportion to the amount of time your child spends in prayer, in scripture reading, in reading the lives of the Saints, in attendance at Mass, in praying the rosary, or in any number of works of mercy or service to others.
Some people, children or adults, are casual readers of Potter. They don’t spend vast amounts of time online in RP chatrooms or with fan fiction or don’t actively seek out other title in the juvenile/occult fiction genre. Or do they? Discuss the content all you want but does your child interpret the stories in their correlation to Catholic Christianity or are they forming an entirely separate world view which is exclusive of the words and examples of the saints and church fathers, as well as your own word and example or that of any upstanding member of your parish?
Is Harry Potter becoming a substitute for something in your child’s life that isn’t there but should be? And I might add, there are other things we can possibly substitute for a genuine living out of our faith. There are a million alternatives to spending time in prayer or in works of mercy. Reading or watching or thinking about Harry Potter is certainly not the only one.
Why do we have so few American saints? The saints made choices which impacted the world for Christ. Will your child do likewise after reading/watching Harry Potter?

 What *do *you want your child to grow up to become?

Sorry but I think you’re taking the whole Harry Potter story way too seriously. I think the Twilight Series is far more harmful as it gives a warped idea of romance but that’s another thread. I just view it as light entertainment. A much better alternative to Lord of the Rings which I found way to lengthy and which took itself far too seriously.

 

[Catholic90]

*The occult is NOT present in HP. This has been discussed ad nauseum. There is NO OCCULT in HP.
*

Witchcraft is not the occult? Do you know what witchcraft is? Witchcraft is the desire for the power(which is most often the case) or the power to manipulate creation in ways which directly exclude God. You can find examples all throughout the Old Testament. And it is strictly forbidden.

Theo, are you aware HP is a fictional story? It is not real. The spells cast in HP are Latin words. Latin. So the witchcraft in HP is NOT the occult, since it is not real. Fiction. Last I checked, reading fiction was not forbidden!

Why so much fear, Theo?

Did you ever read Snow White or Cinderella when you were small? Or were those forbidden because witches were in the stories? Those darn Grimm Brothers…spreading evil to our children through witchcraft! Which means…Disney World is off-limits for you, too! No Magic Kingdom! (Because Magic is evil…). Oh, boy…

 

[Catholic90]

I honestly loved the books and movies. They are just stories for children. And before you critise it please take a look at a review from Catholic News

catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/1102767.htm

I recommend Theo read this article:

Some key quotes:

“As for the content, evil is never presented as fascinating or attractive in the saga, but the values of friendship and of sacrifice are highlighted. In a unique and long story of formation, through painful passages of dealing with death and loss, the hero and his companions mature from the lightheartedness of infancy to the complex reality of adulthood,” he said.

In the second review, Antonio Carriero reaffirmed one point Vatican reviewers have made since the Harry Potter books first appeared in Italian: The story captured the imagination of millions of children around the world and got them reading books.

the saga championed values that Christians and non-Christians share and provided opportunities for Christian parents to talk to their children about how those values are presented in a special way in the Bible.

Power, success and an easy life do not bring the truest and deepest joys. For that we need friendship, self-giving, sacrifice and attachment to a truth that is not formed in man’s image," the review said.

 

[Theophilus777]

*Great, yet another anti-Potter/anti-fantasy poster immediately resorting to false comparisons.

You do realize that the difference between Harry Potter and heretical document is that the former is simply fiction while the latter actually tries to teach something as true? Think hard on it, it’ll come to you.*

My original point is that children do not have the background information or experience to be able to adequately process the fiction in Harry Potter. We are not talking about adults such as ourselves. We are talking about children. The books are marketed toward children. As such the books are dangerous because everything we have been talking about in this thread is written with*** children*** in mind. Can I get any clearer than this? Adults can recognize the fantasy and even enjoy it but children do not process fantasy the same way that an adult processes it. Children are more inclined to actually experiment with curious things and as such could develop a desire to learn more about the occult. The Potter books are not benign regarding “magic” as is the Narnia stories. In Narnia the magic belongs to Aslan and is subject to His authority. In Potter the magic is ours and we can do what we want. The Pagan Rede says “Do what you will and harm none.” You can find this same twisted philosophy in Harry Potter. I wonder if you are fully aware of how much actual pagan religion is in the Potter books.
*Oh so giving a guy the power to talk to snakes is a bad thing? Wow, I didn’t know being able to talk to a certain type of animal somehow counts as immoral. :*rolleyes:
I was using the example as an allusion to the deception of the devil in the Garden of Eden. The devil is a liar. The point made is that we do not need to dialogue with evil. I am appalled that we are even discussing this subject on a Catholic message board. We need more catechesis so that people in the Church can learn to distinguish between the truth and a lie.

*Please know that when it comes to interpreting fiction, there is no absolute. You view it as a gnostic heresy, others see Christian themes in it. In the end, nobody is anymore right than the other. It’s all a matter of perspective.
*
No, you are wrong. There are absolutes. There are things which are good and things which are evil. The idea that what is bad for you may not necessarily be bad for me is a twisted philosophy known as moral relativism. Moral relativism makes the individual, the self, the arbiter of truth. The statement, “We all decide what is true for ourselves.” is an example of moral relativism, and by the way, moral relativism is wrong. It’s one of those lies the devil tells people to keep them from the truth and lead them to destruction. The only reason I’m taking the time to write this is because I love you and other people enough to not stand by idly while you are duped by the enemy of our Faith. God’s truth is more beautiful than anything Rowling could ever write. Doesn’t His word as we Catholics find it in Scripture and tradition deserve MORE of our time and attention than some twisted neopagan fictional account of teenage witchcraft? Where your treasure is, there will lie your heart. What do you value above all else in life, those things which are passing away or those things which are eternal and reflect the goodness of God Who we love? This is about faith vs. fiction. Choose wisely.
And these lies… are?
If you’ve already read the books or seen the movie and can’t recognize the lies, you need to spend more time with Catholic teaching. You can buy a copy of the catechism on Ebay. You can find any number of books written by saints and popes and learned persons who know the truth backwards and forwards and it will EDIFY you and make you a holy person.

Harry Potter can’t do any of this. Why spend your money on what will not feed you?

 

[Corki]

If you’ve already read the books or seen the movie and can’t recognize the lies, you need to spend more time with Catholic teaching. You can buy a copy of the catechism on Ebay. You can find any number of books written by saints and popes and learned persons who know the truth backwards and forwards and it will EDIFY you and make you a holy person.

Harry Potter can’t do any of this. Why spend your money on what will not feed you?

Is this false dichotomy week and no one told me?

Speaking for myself, I have three copies of the CCC, as well as the CCCC and the Adult Catechism, all five volumes of the BC and a whole bookcase - that’s case, not shelf - of book about and by saints.

But I also love to read fiction. I am currently reading a Flannery O’Conner book. My Nook is full of novels. And I have read all seven HP books to my children, seen the movies and sat for two hours in a crowded theater to see the midnight premier of the last one. (none of us can do the spells, however)

Theophilus,

May I suggest a research project? Look at the people you are arguing with on this thread. Do a search on their prior posts and threads. I think you will see that this is a group of pretty knowledgable Catholics. They are well-educated, well-catechized (some are even catechists) and well-read. This is not a crowd that needs to spend more time with Catholic reading. This is a crowd that already knows good Catholic books and also recognizes the good to be found in escapist fiction.