Harry Potter - My problem with it

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Brendan said:
Morality does not depend on the means. Why should I tolerate torture from the protagoinist in children’s liturature, no matter what the means?

Does the fantastical nature of the means render what is being presented as moral, or even morally neutral?

What if Rawlings came out with an additional book.

Let’s say that in that book, a Ravenclaw girl confides in Hermione that she is pregnant (too much butter beer made Doyle look less repulsive than normal 😉 and Doyles “protecticus latexicus” charm failed.

So the Ravenclaw girl requests that Hermione teach her the abortion charm.

Would the fantastical nature of that make it appropriate children’s reading? After all ‘abortion spells’ are just as pure fantasy as a Crucius Curse 😉

As I am plainly in need of help understanding the difference, could you please explain it to me :rolleyes:
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That’s obviously inappropriate. But I seriously doubt Rowling would write anything like that.

And I think what you meant was that “the ends doesn’t justify the means”. I think your point was that the means DO matter. Yes? Just words confused a little right?

Sometimes Harry Potter broke the rules w/ good intentions. I think this a normal thing in human nature. It doesn’t mean it’s right, but it’s something we do.

JK Rowling created a realistic character in this sense. And I have read the books and can tell you that YES he was usually punished when he broke the rules, but still received acknowledgment for the good that he did. It usually balanced out in most cases during the series… Just my opinion though.

I seem to remember in the Narnia series which everyone loves so much (as do I, mind you) that the characters were not perfect and made mistakes. It was why Aslan had to perform the ‘deep magic’ remember???

My point is that no child’s story is going to have perfect characters.
 
Little_Katie said:
That’s obviously inappropriate. But I seriously doubt Rowling would write anything like that.

And I think what you meant was that “the ends doesn’t justify the means”. I think your point was that the means DO matter. Yes? Just words confused a little right?

Sometimes Harry Potter broke the rules w/ good intentions. I think this a normal thing in human nature. It doesn’t mean it’s right, but it’s something we do.

JK Rowling created a realistic character in this sense. And I have read the books and can tell you that YES he was usually punished when he broke the rules, but still received acknowledgment for the good that he did. It usually balanced out in most cases during the series… Just my opinion though.

I seem to remember in the Narnia series which everyone loves so much (as do I, mind you) that the characters were not perfect and made mistakes. It was why Aslan had to perform the ‘deep magic’ remember???

My point is that no child’s story is going to have perfect characters.
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Find me a piece of literature without tension between good and evil and I’ll find you a piece of literature that does not sell.

If we took some of the stories out of the OT and put them into separate books under different titles, we would find that some are violence, sensual, filled with greed and representative of heinous crimes against humanity such as genocide. In fact, these stories are not immoral at all. The protray humanity as it is, weak and in search for the greater good. But one can read what’s not meant to be read into them, when taken out of context.

I refer again to the obligations of parents and educators to help children learn to read correctly for comprehension and learn to unerstand the difference between what they read and what they do in real life.

JR 🙂
 
JReducation said:
Find me a piece of literature without tension between good and evil and I’ll find you a piece of literature that does not sell.

If we took some of the stories out of the OT and put them into separate books under different titles, we would find that some are violence, sensual, filled with greed and representative of heinous crimes against humanity such as genocide. In fact, these stories are not immoral at all. The protray humanity as it is, weak and in search for the greater good. But one can read what’s not meant to be read into them, when taken out of context.

I refer again to the obligations of parents and educators to help children learn to read correctly for comprehension and learn to unerstand the difference between what they read and what they do in real life.

JR 🙂
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Excellent points, I’ve thought of this before too.

I don’t like the harry Potter books, really, there’s so boring and emotionless…for me mind you all.

But I don’t really understand the big deal many Christians have with them. It’s fantasy.

And if you’re going to have perfect characters, in every scene, in every part, never making mistakes, you’re going to also have emotionless characters, even very unrealistic. I just prefer those mistakes to come back to haunt them in a latter part, and they then learn from them.

I know my characters make some mistakes, especially the main character of mine in my working progress novel. But he comes to a better understanding in the end, and asks forgivness.

Much of the story is spiritual, you can see christian parallels. Though not so in your face like Narnia, like I said, more spiritual than religious.

I also wanted to note, my story is most definitely NOT a childrens book:D
 
Roza said:
Star Wars & Field of Dreams though… don’t have wiccan or pagan themes… I do vaguely remember a movie called the ‘Dark Crystal’ from 80’s??? but that was more space stuff… Let’s replace Harry Potter and say it was a movie about using a ouija or using iching coins if we didn’t want to look at witchcraft/wicca… god and goddess… would it still be received as totally fine to watch these days, something for kids to see? So maybe they could buy their own ouija or make their own… see what I mean? To a child, planting the ideas in their heads… if they do know what they’re watching is forbidden by the Church… but kids are kids… I still remember being told don’t eat these berries because they’re poisonous or would make me sick and I ate them anyway. When it was discovered right away had to do the ipecac syrup, yuck! I went to the Capitol Building in Madison WI as a child, they said ‘don’t lean over the railing’ but a kid will do exactly what you tell them not to, I did. 😦 I guess that’s my concern.
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If you are really worried about Harry Potter’s effect on children then I envy you. It must mean that you are financially secure, have great health insurance, have healthy children, a secure job, lots of friends and a great community.
 
Roza said:
So Rico, God just made up things to warn us about that aren’t real?
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So does it follow that, since God warned us not to worship other gods, that other gods are real? Why would he warn us not to worship other gods if they aren’t real? Perhaps the answer to that question is the similar to why he warns us against witchcraft, divination, etc.
Picking and choosing what to believe?
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C’mon Roza. I am no biblical scholar, but you are on shaky ground by taking a quote from Dutueronomy and then accusing me of picking and choosing what to believe.

–Rico
 
Roza said:
I still remember being told don’t eat these berries because they’re poisonous or would make me sick and I ate them anyway. When it was discovered right away had to do the ipecac syrup, yuck! I went to the Capitol Building in Madison WI as a child, they said ‘don’t lean over the railing’ but a kid will do exactly what you tell them not to, I did. 😦 I guess that’s my concern.
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Hmmmm…I never did what I was told not to. Neither did/do my kids (and they are teenagers!!).

FWIW, I love the HP series. Never once have any of my kids tried to “perform magic” because they understand make believe and imagination. Now that they are taking Latin, they understand the book even better.
 
Nickkname said:
Is Harry Potter pure evil? No, not pure evil, but it dose include very subtile evils - evils wrapped up in good. The greatest evils which Satan presents to man are not large and terrifying - no, that would be too obvious. Rather the devil makes uses of little evils, wrapped up in great goodness. He combines truth with untruth and evil with good to confuse people and gain ground in the soul. And so it is with Harry Potter. The books and movies include many Christian themes and good values: Sacrifice, love, courage, mercy, non-violent resistant against evil, friendship, co-operation, chastity, hope, unity, spiritual warfare, resistance to temptation, maturity, responsibility, protection of the poor and the innocent, and the triumph of good over evil, light over darkness. However, in the midst of all these virtues and values, there are also evil values and the glorification of sins lurking in the books and movies: Disobedience and being rewarded for it - or at least no consequences following it, doing evil for a good cause, love as an an occult power (magic), a difference between good and evil magic, divinization, harming those who harm you, conjuration, distrust in the divine Providence, mercy-killing, homosexual acts, superstition, and using evil to combat evil.
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Where are there homosexual acts in the books? I have read them and never come across a homosexual act.
 
What I find amazing is that if the words witch and wizard were replaced with other words without changing anything else in the books everyone who opposed the books would not even think twice about it. The opposition to these books is solely based on those two words in the books. Really I don’t think wiccans are running around with sticks yelling latin words or cognates of latin words like ‘lumose’.
 
Valke2 said:
If you are really worried about Harry Potter’s effect on children then I envy you. It must mean that you are financially secure, have great health insurance, have healthy children, a secure job, lots of friends and a great community.
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On an on off job search for 3 yrs, exhausted my IRA, on welfare and still job hunting and might eventually have gov assisted health, never done this before… just seeking a stable job that won’t send my work to Manila etc. Need to make more Catholic friends locally, know mostly ex-Catholics yet and one does know I’m back to Catholicism and we’re still friends. Do want to get in touch with an ol’ coworker who knew me in my new age dumb days because he always knew how to talk to me. I thankfully came out of the new age lies and yeah, am concerned with another kid having to grow up in junk I did.
 
And regarding offshore outsourcing, still working on not letting that get under my skin when I have a call answered by Manila, India or the Philippines but in spite of my job fun, am going with the party more apt to put an end to abortion prayerfully some day.

I’d rather see kids viewing Bible stories, lives of the saints etc than wicca 101… sorry.
 
Apology accepted. I didn’t realize reading Harry Potter and the Bible was an either/or proposition.
 
What I find amazing is that if the words witch and wizard were replaced with other words without changing anything else in the books everyone who opposed the books would not even think twice about it. The opposition to these books is solely based on those two words in the books. Really I don’t think wiccans are running around with sticks yelling latin words or cognates of latin words like ‘lumose’.
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Actually, you might ‘think’ this (you are entitled to your opinion) but I’m here to tell you that my own objections to certain parts of the books (not by any means everything in the books) and certain actions by the characters which I found morally problematic had absolutely **nothing **to do with the words witch, wizard, magic, spells, etc.

FWIW, I love many ‘fantasy’ and scifi works.

I enjoyed some of the HP stuff too. Some of it was wonderfully written, including the entire “Hogwarts” school–children would want to go there, and adults would wish they were children and could go there. It was a magical place of the best kind. The early books especially painted a masterful view of the "Wizarding world’.

My own problems with the moral development of characters including Harry and Hermione and Ron had absolutely nothing to do with them being wizards and a witch, and everything to do with the wrong ‘message’ being presented.

No, I did not expect ‘perfect’ children or ‘no conflict’.
However, (to me) one of the main problems with these conflicts was that JK was presenting the decisions made by children–and reinforced by adults–was that ‘bad actions’ could be morally ok provided the ‘motive’ was ‘pure.’

IOW, what permeates the series (to me) is a very strong argument that “the ends justify the means”. While Dumbledore is a huge example of this in how he ‘set up Harry’ and while it seems OTOH that this is finally condemned, it wasn’t condemned so much because it was morally ‘wrong’ but because it turned out to be ‘unnecessary’.

Hermione’s gratuitous lie about the troll makes the children friends. It wasn’t necessary, and it’s the first step Hermione makes in what becomes a continuous procession away from her own convictions by doing what ‘the boys want’ because even though it goes against her sense of right and wrong, "the ends justify the means.’

Now, again, this is my opinion. Obviously the books are so ambiguous that many people do not get this from the books at all–they in fact find the opposite message and can bring up many examples which they feel prove their point. So I’ll usually agree to disagree especially because, as I said, I find many things in the books which I did enjoy.

But I repeat–my difficulties (my personal opinion too) do not stem from anything whatsoever about witches or Wicca.

Not one iota.
 
Rico_S said:
I said;
So does it follow that, since God warned us not to worship other gods, that other gods are real? Why would he warn us not to worship other gods if they aren’t real? Perhaps the answer to that question is the similar to why he warns us against witchcraft, divination, etc.

you said;
C’mon Roza. I am no biblical scholar, but you are on shaky ground by taking a quote from Dutueronomy and then accusing me of picking and choosing what to believe.

–Rico
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I’m sorry, wasn’t accusing at all. A person can make anything a god… people definitely have worshiped money… some may worship a person, or their own ideology.
 
jimmy said:
Where are there homosexual acts in the books? I have read them and never come across a homosexual act.
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Not even hinted at, as opposed to the Chronicles of Narnia, which doesn’t seem to come in for much criticism at all Just what was the symbolism of those children coming out of the closet at the end of The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe?
 
I have read all the HP books, and I’ve seen most of the movies (I think I’m missing one…).

Overall, I think HP is fantasy. Like a PP said, who wouldn’t want to go to a school like Hogwarts? While we’re at it, I’d like to have a little help cleaning house…house elf, anyone? 🙂

The warnings from those who have been in witchcraft, paganism, and the occult do concern me. It’s not so much that the spells in the books would be effective; it’s the lure of the control that witchcraft offers that some children (and adults, perhaps) might not be able to resist. I think those of us who, by God’s grace, have not been involved in the occult would be wise to listen to the warnings of those who have been-there, done-that…or, at the very least, consider their words and not discount them.

However, bottom line: I think that parents should be very cautious about these books, just as they would be cautious about many others. There is a time and place for children to learn about certain things. At three, a child does not need to know what a 17-year-old does, KWIM? A parent should judge whether a child is ready to separate fantasy of this nature and reality. Perhaps read the books with the child, as a PP did? If the child has questions, this would be an excellent time to discuss our faith - why we believe what we do. On the other hand, it may be never appropriate for some children, depending on the child’s personality and maturity…and on the parent’s conviction.

I suggest praying for guidance.
 
Thank you! If I saw a movie now about doing drugs or getting drunk I’d have no urge to go do it myself. I do know I’m not the only one who may have grown up with things they assumed to be acceptable that weren’t. For example, I ALWAYS read my horoscope as a child and growing up, saw it done at home, never would’ve thought about it. Can’t say I honestly remember being taught that it was wrong. I was confirmed my jr year of HS 1984, granted I admit… I was a Catholic who didn’t get it. I know now all this was in the Church but I’m one of those who just wasn’t ‘with it’ the first time around as a Catholic. I won’t blame anyone that taught me back then, I think the fault does lie with me, at least in my case. I can list my lures out of the Church and into the new age junk… but the choice to do what I did was still mine to make.
 
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