harry potter

[Fone_Bone_2001]

And yet her understanding of those verses is so greatly flawed. Harry rises from the dead on his own.

Once again, it doesn’t matter how many times you’ve read the books if you didn’t pay attention. Harry doesn’t literally rise from the dead at all, because he doesn’t literally die (Deathly Hallows 707).

Furthermore, he isn’t saved from death by his own power at all. Voldemort couldn’t kill him because by using Harry’s blood (which is also Lily’s, of course) to rebuild his mortal body, Voldemort took into his very body Lily’s protection of Harry (Deathly Hallows 709).

That is a gross change of the meaning of 1 Corinthians 15:26. The bible does NOT teach that the last thing that will happen is that people will choose to rise from the dead of their own accord.

I honestly can’t believe I’m reading this. Don’t you remember that scene? Harry literally freaks out when he sees 1 Cor. 15:26 on his parent’s tombstone for precisely the same reason you object to its use: he interprets it to mean “conquering death” on the strength of one’s own power - which he vehemently rejects as a “Death Eater” idea. Hermione literally corrects him and assures him that that is not what the tombstone means by that quotation, that it does not refer to overcoming death by your own power.

Really? The fact that Voldemort wasn’t aware that a sacrifice based on love (by anyone) is enough to thwart the avada kedavra curse isn’t a rule by which Voldemort went down?

No! It’s a providential, irreversible, and highly significant spiritual and metaphysical reality! How can you possibly have gotten the impression that the books treat such “rules” as mere magical loopholes, when such “rules” are, in the novels, consistent, universal and unexplainable (by magic) principles which govern the nature and effects of mortality, love, and death?

Voldemorts ultimate failure was not predicated by a rule that a wand cannot be used against it’s own master?

Sure, that’s a rule, but you’re acting like these rules’ effects in the story are mere arbitrary coincidences. That’s completely inconsistent with literally everything in the series. Such “rules” work out in Harry’s favor because he (and/or his friends, loved ones, and allies) ultimately make the right moral and spiritual choices: for instance, he’s the master of the Elder Wand insofar as at the climax of the novels he possesses all the Deathly Hallows. In other words, he’s the master of death, something no other known character ever achieves, and it’s highly structurally and symbolically significant that Harry unites the Hallows and becomes “death’s master” only by not seeking them but instead by surrendering to death for the sake of his friends:

“Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it” (Matt. 10:39), and “Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends” (John 15:13). It is these precise spiritual realities that explain why only someone who surrenders to death is able to unite the Hallows.

Was it not a rule that when two paired wands meet they’ll connect, which is the only thing that allowed Harry to escape in the Goblet of Fire?

Sure, but once again, only in such a way that your objection disintegrates: it’s not an arbitrary rule but one governed by providential - and yes, even divine - principles: the only reason Harry and Voldemort are linked at all is because Voldemort “marked” and thus empowered Harry by acting on the prophecy, remember? Dumbledore establishes this pretty definitively. Right here in the series you have the theme of the dangerous and self-defeating futility of fortune telling/divination!

Harry wins because of a natural law rule that Voldemort can’t use the deathly hollow wand against Harry because it is Harry’s to command. This is not the grace of God allowing the defeat of evil… it is a turn of hand based on a non-existant natural law which shows no sign of being at the mercy of a Divine figurehead.

I think at this point I’ve shown pretty clearly that this “rule” turning out this way is not some arbitrary magical coincidence at all, but clearly and unequivocally stems from Harry and his friends’ ultimate decisions to make the right spiritual and moral choices.

 

[Fone_Bone_2001]

Fawkes is most certainly not a Christ figure, but rather a pagan symbol. Christian’s don’t believe in the phoenix, remember?

We don’t believe in dragons, either, but that doesn’t mean they can’t symbolize Satan and evil. The phoenix may be of pagan origin, but it is a Christ symbol due to its status as “the resurrection bird.”

Please re-read the second paragraph I quoted from wikipedia in which Lewis describes the role of pagan symbols in Christian literature

No. The Stag’s HORNS are a symbol of the resurrection. The Stag is not a symbol of Christ.

A stag is often a Christ symbol because of its horns.

And… wait for it… who originated the stag? Harry himself when he time travelled backwards and saved himself from the dementors. Oh, and his passed out uncle was there.

So? Look at the experience of that scene: Harry lies waiting for death at the hands of the ravenous dementors, when a bright stag comes to save his soul. Yes, the time-travel device of Prisoner of Azkaban enables Rowling to make it so that he himself later casts it, but that doesn’t change that at the time that Stag Patronus saves Harry, he was totally unable to cast it - totally unable to save himself.

Plus, his Patronus is a stag because his father was a stag animagus. He even thinks it’s his father coming to save him at the time. The whole thing suggests that we must look outside ourselves - not to our own power - to be saved.

And it’s his godfather, not his uncle. But I’m not surprised that obvious Christian influence (the main character having a godfather as a mentor figure) passed you by unnoticed.

No, his father and several other souls captured inside a physical device (rather than going on to face particular judgement and salvation or damnation as appropriate) attack voldemort and he runs away through a magical gateway.

Yep. Last I checked the “order of the Phoenix”, Dumbledore’s Army, and Dumbledore himself do not represent Christ at all, but rather individual humans… not one of whom ever makes reference to a divine in any way, shape, or form.

(a) Doesn’t matter: it still shows that the books clearly and unequivocally reject the idea that you can save yourself from evil by your own power.

(b) They’re symbols. As I said before, why does the Christ figure have to literally be Christ, like Aslan? Symbolism, imagery, and literature reveal the invisible with the visible, and there is a difference between what something represents or points to and what it is on a literal surface level. And that’s okay. Well, I guess you could deny that, in which case I will simply agree to disagree with you.

But I will not do so about the effect that such symbols have on impressionable readers.

Not all, it only severs the last tie of Voldemort to the land of the living.

No, it does far more, remember? None of the Death Eaters can kill good guys in combat after Harry’s sacrifice, and Voldemort himself can’t even magically make them be quiet anymore.

As I said before, look at Lewis’ views on fantasy from the wikipedia quote I provided a few pages back, and please think about how the chapter in The Voyage of the Dawn Treader where the travelers visit the “dark island” is structurally identical to the climax of most of the Harry Potter novels.

As I said before, the only difference is that Harry Potter’s Christ symbols aren’t literally Christ in another world as Aslan is. If you have a problem with that degree of separation, then might I suggest you strive for an appreciation of imagination’s considerable power?

 

[Fone_Bone_2001]

Also, promethius, even if you choose not to respond to every point, I hope you won’t miss my other replies on the bottom of page 4.

 

[jimmy]

[/indent]Again, even in St Basil, the ability to love is given to us via Divine Command, and without God there is no love. We see no such indication of any sort of Divine Command or grace as the basis of human love in the entire series of Harry Potter.

God is all goodness and love, and without God there is no goodness or love. Different traditions believe this manifests in different ways, but ultimately they agree: Love is a gift from God and without God humans would be depraved creatures.

True enough, but it still remains that the power is common to all and is part of our natural constitution. Evil is found in how we use this naturally good gift.

This is a statement of terrible catechesis and nothing more. When Padre Pio had his visions, or when anyone draws on any charism whatsoever, these are acts of grace by the HOLY SPIRIT. Satan, by contrast, does not draw his abilities are actions by grace of the Holy Spirit, because he is entirely cut off from grace.
…
Please, seek the proper catechesis of a good priest if you think that Charisms and Occult powers derive from the same source and are merely tools to be used according to human will…

I am well enough educated on the issues of the Catholic faith that I can have a discussion about them myself. The fact remains that evil doesn’t have an actual essential reality as you seem to indicate. If it did then we would all be gnostics because God would be the opposite of Satan. In reality, evil is the product of free will. All men have free will. The difference between the good and the evil is how that free will is used.

Harry Potter is a world of witches and wizards that have a natural power (I am using patristic and Thomistic words, not Harry Potter words. natural power refers to things like passions and free will. Maximus the Confessor speaks of a certain orientation toward God that compells man toward God as a natural passion.) that allows them to do magic. That being said, why is it a problem that both HP and Voldemort get their powers from the same place? Their powers aren’t some superadded Charism or occult power, they are natural powers.

You haven’t been reading any of my posts have you? I have said time and again that I have no problem with anyone reading works of fiction such as Harry Potter. What I have said is that this reading should be not be in place of proper catechesis regarding christian values.

Granted I own 4,000 pounds of books (I get wonderful information from the fact that I’m in the military and they weigh my belongings each time I move) I would say I have quite a reading selection available… more than most, actually. I never advocate avoiding works of fiction which are not UTTERLY against christian values… what I advocate is what the church has always advocated: that good christian formation is a necessary part of human development.

I have read most of them.

Wrong on so many levels. I have read the Harry Potter series, as well as the LOTR and Narnia series more often than most fans of the novels have. If you were actually reading my posts, you would know this.

Now, a question for you: Have you BEEN to any of the places mentioned in Harry Potter? I’ve been to almost all of them. Europe is quite lovely. I’m going to throw this argument back in your face: unless you’ve TRAVELLED to Europe and seen the places that are mentioned in the book, you can’t make an argument regarding the texts.

That post wasn’t directed at you. I realized that you had read Harry Potter and weren’t really arguing against it. But some of the other posters were arguing against Harry Potter. They tended to refer to articles without actually refering to the books themselves.

I have been to Europe. But even if I hadn’t, I can make up my own image of London without it affecting anyone, so it isn’t quite the same thing. Someone can make up their own idea of what they imagine JK Rowling might be saying in HP, but that would not be charitable or academically honest.

 

[kimmielittle]

Why not ask kids what they get out of the books?

I’m a kid.
I’ve read HP…LOTR…Nardia…etc over and over.

The so called ‘magic’ is a vehicle used in order to move the ‘real’ story.
No more so than a ‘magic train’ polar express ]

Love for another.
Fidelity to friends.
Right over wrong.

IS THE STORY - every kid will tell you this…but we might like to have an invisibility cloak, sometimes.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

Really? Actually being aware of the morals and philosophy espoused by an author is BAD reading practice? Being aware of one’s OWN theology and morality in comparison is BAD practice?

What school did you go to? I need to write to your principle and inform him that his literature instructors are failing their students in regards to lessons on critical reading and comprehension…

Whoa, whoa rewind. Sorry but you’re only flattering yourself if you think anything you’ve complained about Harry Potter is on the level of morality and philosophy. What school did you go to? You’re only discussing theology. Nothing more. Morality and philosophy are topics that don’t exactly have to have the aspect of God thrown in. You on the other hand, keep throwing in a theological complaint.

You complain about how Harry triumphs over Voldemort by means of human ability and nothing God-sent. Following this ‘logic’, any story where the hero triumphs over the villains by means of weapons, superpowers, techniques, or simply a moral/philosophical epiphany is just as bad. That would include a heavy chunk of fiction as we know it.

conversely, moral lessons transcend the fantasy aspect of a work. We know that physical law is foregone in fantasy works (I have a bachelor of science degree in Physics, btw… so nice accidental example there). What is NOT clear is whether or not an author intends a moral imperitive to be applied to the real world or not, and whether or not a person will apply such a moral imperitive to the real world.

The problem is we are not discussing a moral imperative. Your complaint is theological. You are in fact, imposing an outside theology into a text that is hardly relevant to it. And no, theology =/= morality. You can separate the two and in the case of fiction, chances are you might actually have to.

 

[Vince1022]

Is watching harry potter movies ok. just as recreation or a bit of entertainment. or are we supose to not watch such things

Are you still participating? Did the responses help? Thanks.

 

[Samuel63]

Hogwarts is a school of witchcraft and wizadry - potions, divination, the dark arts, etc.

I would wager new customers have increased at the Phychic Readers establishments since HP was introduced to our civilization. It is plausible at least.

The evil one is grateful.
This is the first step down a long dark path with no exit.

A few sane people exist to see the devastation caused by HP. Fr. Euteneuer is one of them. He is an experienced exorcist and sees the impact on society directly. His worth is attested to by the fact that protestants call on him when needed. When the devil get close, protestants come back to The Rock with their tail between their legs.

Many comments on this site are selfishly focused on individual ability to avoid the effects of HP. What some of these contributors are missing, is the point that not all people have the same ability to deter the onslaught of the forces of evil.

In the end, all of us will be judged on how we handled this issue and others. I am on the side of protecting my brothers and sisters from what this really is - a near occasion of sin.

 

[Snugglebugmom]

I don’t think Harry Potter entices people to dabble in the occult any more than crime novels entice them to dabble in murder.

Well stated. I don’t think someone who is weak in their faith or has a budding interest in the occult, needs Harry Potter to show the way. And conversely, I don’t believe keeping Harry Potter away from them will make a difference in their state of mind and soul.

 

[kimmielittle]

Hogwarts is a school of witchcraft and wizadry - potions, divination, the dark arts, etc.

Gandolf is?

I would wager new customers have increased at the Phychic Readers establishments since HP was introduced to our civilization. It is plausible at least.

Plausible, yes…but provable ?

The evil one is grateful.
This is the first step down a long dark path with no exit.

Cinderella’s Fairy Godmother, might be a better starter

A few sane people exist to see the devastation caused by HP. Fr. Euteneuer is one of them. He is an experienced exorcist and sees the impact on society directly.

I imagine criminal profilers have a hard time, sometimes, seeing that not all profiles equal loss of free will…OR equal abhorring behaviorism. I’m almost positive a good profiler can find two or three personal traits in everyone of us that isn’t criminally inclined…but match those who are.

Many comments on this site are selfishly focused on individual ability to avoid the effects of HP.

Could you point out explicit ‘effects’ you are talking about, please? This is something Fr. Euteneuer has failed to do. Calling something “occult” without definition …I dare say, one can label almost anything as "occultist’. i.e wearing black.

What some of these contributors are missing, is the point that not all people have the same ability to deter the onslaught of the forces of evil.

Are you saying kids can’t tell fantasy/fiction from say, documentary works?

In the end, all of us will be judged on how we handled this issue and others. I am on the side of protecting my brothers and sisters from what this really is - a near occasion of sin.

Do you provide transportation to all the people you know who fail to go to Mass? THAT is a closer occasion of sin.

Here is a good read from a Catholic
scificatholic.com/2010/08/father-thomas-euteneuer-on-harry-potter.html

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

Hogwarts is a school of witchcraft and wizadry - potions, divination, the dark arts, etc.

I would wager new customers have increased at the Phychic Readers establishments since HP was introduced to our civilization. It is plausible at least.

Correlation implying causation is a logical fallacy.

The evil one is grateful.
This is the first step down a long dark path with no exit.

I guess I’m a hopeless case then. I’ve not only read Harry Potter but I’ve been ‘dabbling’ in the whole fantasy genre for seven years and counting (perhaps even longer XD). Fantasy role-playing games are my favorite genre (Japanese ones in particular like the Final Fantasy and the Tales of series). And to top it off, care to guess what my favorite class is? Wizard. Mage. Warlock. In other words it’s the class capable of dealing the highest amount pwnage in a single attack. Oooh… all that destruction… all that power at my fingertips… >w<

It sucks than I can’t be like that in real life though, but whatever. Knights play the role of meat shields while Healers play the role of walking pots. Me? I’m the magical equivalent to a nuclear warhead baby! YEAH!!!

So, when is the ‘evil one’ teaching me how to conjure hellfire from a wooden stick?

A few sane people exist to see the devastation caused by HP. Fr. Euteneuer is one of them. He is an experienced exorcist and sees the impact on society directly.

I’m sorry, since when has the inability to tell fantasy from reality regarded as a sign of sanity? Common knowledge always dictated it the other way around.

His worth is attested to by the fact that protestants call on him when needed. When the devil get close, protestants come back to The Rock with their tail between their legs.

There are Protestants who also believe in Creationism, the Rapture, and that electric guitars makes you gay, do drugs, and worship Satan.

Try again.

Many comments on this site are selfishly focused on individual ability to avoid the effects of HP. What some of these contributors are missing, is the point that not all people have the same ability to deter the onslaught of the forces of evil.

The ability to tell fantasy from reality is critical to a person’s mental stability. Even religious folks such as yourself would demand possible psychological treatment if you were to go around saying the Blessed Virgin or Jesus Christ showed up on your altar telling you Harry Potter is evil.

In the end, all of us will be judged on how we handled this issue and others. I am on the side of protecting my brothers and sisters from what this really is - a near occasion of sin.

Don’t you think you’re rather insulting when you deem humanity as a mentality unstable child who can’t tell fantasy from reality? Sounds like somebody is projecting here…

 

[kimmielittle]

In HP you can not become a witch or wizard - no more than I can become, in LOTR… an ELF.

 

[Snugglebugmom]

In HP you can not become a witch or wizard - no more than I can become, in LOTR… an ELF.

whispers Pssst… “Lord of the Rings Online”, go check it out some time! Loads of fun, and you actually can be an Elf.

 

[joandarc2008]

whispers Pssst… “Lord of the Rings Online”, go check it out some time! Loads of fun, and you actually can be an Elf.

Or not so funny -you can actually practice certain religions where you can be a witch or a wizard and spellcraft. And it is less rare than you make it out to be:

Overview:

Nobody knows how many Wiccans that there are. We have a hunch that few estimates are accurate within 50%.

When we started to research this question, we assumed that we could find a few reasonably accurate estimates, compute their average, and present the result as a ballpark number of the number of Wiccans in the U.S. But it was not to be. We found estimates as low as 2,000 Wiccans in 1982 or 3,600 in 1996. At the other extreme, Phyllis Curott, author of Book of Shadows, estimated 5 to 10 million in 1999. 1

From: religioustolerance.org/wic_nbr.htm

I have seen numbers everywhere within that range so this site seems pretty honest in reporting the range of studies. Obviously anyone who is picking their numbers is going to pick their study and some of those numbers is going to depend on your definitions of “Wicca” and “Pagan” and “NeoPagan.”

Also for the posters that do not believe in Spiritual warfare - I thought should take a look at this masterpiece:

If you take [a copy of] the Christian Bible and put it out in the wind and the rain, soon the paper on which the words are printed will disintegrate and the words will be gone. Our bible IS the wind and the rain." Herbalist Carol McGrath as told to her by a Native-American woman. 5

 

[jilly4ski]

Or not so funny -you can actually practice certain religions where you can be a witch or a wizard and spellcraft. And it is less rare than you make it out to be:

From: religioustolerance.org/wic_nbr.htm

I have seen numbers everywhere within that range so this site seems pretty honest in reporting the range of studies. Obviously anyone who is picking their numbers is going to pick their study and some of those numbers is going to depend on your definitions of “Wicca” and “Pagan” and “NeoPagan.”

Also for the posters that do not believe in Spiritual warfare - I thought should take a look at this masterpiece:

Yes, it is true that the occult is real, but no one has shown any evidence that Harry Potter is in any way, shape, or form even remotely related to the real practice of the occult.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

Or not so funny -you can actually practice certain religions where you can be a witch or a wizard and spellcraft. And it is less rare than you make it out to be:

Hah! Those people can’t even conjure lightning from their hands or turn a measly toad into toadstool. Magicians indeed. Even David Copperfield’s more convincing than those folks.

 

[joandarc2008]

Hah! Those people can’t even conjure lightning from their hands or turn a measly toad into toadstool. Magicians indeed. Even David Copperfield’s more convincing than those folks.

I did not say that they could but they do believe in spellcrafting - so how do you reconcile that with pop culture that one does not glorify the other.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

I did not say that they could but they do believe in spellcrafting - so how do you reconcile that with pop culture that one does not glorify the other.

Cuz they’re two different things! That’s my point. It’s like saying portraying the Church as some secret demon hunting organization glorifies it. I’ve had Trads complain otherwise. You’ve to be completely loco to confuse the two.

 

[joandarc2008]

Cuz they’re two different things! That’s my point. It’s like saying portraying the Church as some secret demon hunting organization glorifies it. I’ve had Trads complain otherwise. You’ve to be completely loco to confuse the two.

I would not say that but I would not see a difference between watching Harry Potter which glorifies witchcraft or watching a movie that glorifies the porn industry. Personal taste. Personal examination of conscience.

 

[Snugglebugmom]

Or not so funny -you can actually practice certain religions where you can be a witch or a wizard and spellcraft. And it is less rare than you make it out to be:

I’m sorry if I offended you, or seemed to be mocking. That wasn’t my intention.
I wanted to let Kimmie know there is a fun online game that is based on the Professor’s trilogie, where she could be an elf if she wanted to. This in response to her post preceding mine.
Again, if I offended you, I apologize, that was really not my intention at all.