Harry Potter

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Eh I understand why pornography is forbidden, but the fact that someone would forbid you reading from fairy tales and children’s books like Harry Potter is just silly. This makes me question whether I even want to be a catholic. Do you people even know what the occult is? I delved into it greatly while I was searching(and I still am searching I guess) and Harry Potter doesn’t have anything to do with practices considered occult. There is one reference to alchemy(the philosopher’s stone), but there are plenty of Christians who during the medieval ages who practiced alchemy as if it was a science. But there is no reference to I-Ching, The Tarot, Kabbalah, Yoga, Astrology, Sufism, Gnosticism, Thelema, Wicca or even big bad Satanism. JK Rowling seems to have no “magical” knowledge beyond the aesthetics of imaginary wizards like Merlin and Gandalf. If you think that HP is occultist than you do not know what the occult is. You seem to be confusing fairy tales with real life religious practices. Rowling owes less to Aleister Crowley or Anton Lavey and more to J.R.R. Tolkien and C.S. Lewis. It’s funny that so many people are against Harry Potter, while no one complains about His Dark Materials by Philip Pullman which are very explicitly anti-god. I gu4ess it just what is popular that is whats hated.

Sidenote: Satanism and the occult are not necessarily the same thing, most occult practices lean toward god or a god rather than the devil. Even Satanists do not worship the devil. I recommend watching an interview with Anton Lavey(the founder of satanism) or reading the Satanic Bible to understand what satanists are really about. They do not worship the devil and call people who do reverse Christians. Watch or Read unless your faith is so weak a book can destroy it.
 
Dearly beloved friends,

Cordial greetings.

Invariably in discussions on contentious issues like Harry Potter or rock/pop music there always comes a point when continued debate becomes rather futile and fruitless. A states that the Potter books are culturally unhealthy for various reasons; B vehemently disagrees for various reasons or even questions that A has given any reasons at all. We all know that A and B are fully persuaded as to the correctness and cogency of their respective arguments and are therefore unlikely to revise or abandon their stance. Having said that there is always a slim chance that they might, as was the case with Armour of Light (thankyou for your kind words, dear friend) earlier on this thread, which is the sole reason why I periodically engage in debates on Potter or rock music.

During this past week, dear friends, I believe that I have submitted sufficient information and evidence that demonstrates the cullturally unhealthy nature of the Potter series of books. My sincere apologies that I have not been able to address every single post and every point. However, I have no desire to get drawn into an endless maze of nuanced debates on the books, for such debates are mostly unprofitable and seldom shift men from their entrenched positions, whatever side of the debate they happen to be on. Therefore this will be final post in this thread and then I will bow out and take my leave.

One can only hope that the controversy surrounding Harry Potterwill at least challenge men to consider the questions involved from a deeper and wider perspective. Thus, for example, these inferior and uwholesome books need to be examined in the context of the ongoing paganization of children’s culture, a phenomenom that has already proved to have negative consequences. Moreover, in their fanatical allegiance to the book series, many pro-Potterites/ardent supporters have given little serious attention to the fact that the* foundational element * of the series is witchcraft and sorcery, albeit in a fictional setting, unlike the works of Messrs. Lewis and Tolkein. However, without wishing to restate the arguments that I have already made in this thread, suffice to say that there is a monumental failure to understand the sheer power of cultural material over human consciousness and thus its effects upon human actions. Owing to the worldly conformity of multitudes of Catholics nowadays, it is tacitly assumed that it is possible to assimilate a great deal of flawed and unwholesome material, such as the Potter books, and remain totally immune from its dangers. Men are wont to forget that the young are yet in a state of formation and so are vulnerable to the deformation of their understandings of reality, epecially the nature of good and evil. My complaint with the Potter tales is that they prevent children from developing a properly ordered sense of good and evil, which is hardly surprising when you consider that they are a relativistic product of a relativistic age. As Catholics we surely ought to avoid putting into the hands of our children any books which strongly reinforce moral relativism. BTW, this could never be said about Sacred Scripture, which always illuminates a man’s mind to virtue and goodness - the entrance of thy words giveth light.

The problem, dear friends, is not so much that the Potter books will arouse a child’s unhealthy interest in the occult, exceedingly worrisome though that certainly is, but rather that they will desensitize the young to the evil occultic subcultures, which is a very clear and present danger today. Many men, myself included, do not have a problem with the fantasy genre as such, but it would be sheer naivety to close our minds to the fact that it can be misused as a vehicle for harmful messages - messages which, I hasten to add, can have eternal consequences.

Rowling, moreover, depicts witchcraft not as a moral issue, but as a matter of heredity. Thus the ability to practice witchcraft is seen as something that is inherited. However, in reality one does not need to possess a particular bloodline for witchcraft to be able to work. All that is required is to tap into evil spirits, turn over one’s will and forsake Jesus Christ for the occultic subculture. Therefore we have two falsehoods presented to children who read these so called ‘delightful fantasies’: first, their status as a witch is written into their genes; and second, if they are one of the ‘lucky ones’, then they can employ their powers for good. This, dear friends, is to inculcate harmful lies, because the actual reality is so different and so dangerous.

Finally, dear friends, whilst the Potter phenomenom has enjoyed world-wide popularity on an unprecedented scale, this only serves to underscore the sad fact that there has been a tragic loss of spiritual discernment, resulting in a catastrophic error in prudential judgement as regards these inferior books. People have sometimes asked me if it is really possible for so many to be deceived so badly, including many professing Catholics. My response is yes, mass deception is sadly possible, you only need to ask the Germans about that.

If those browsing this thread are confused about the Harry Potter book series and are not wholly convinced that it is culturally unhealthy and unsound, then I would urge them to read carefully for themselves the splendid book by Michael O’ Brien,* Harry Potter and the Paganization of Culture*, which is available from Amazon.com. His arguments against the Potter books are unanswered and unanswerable…

God bless, my dear friends, and before I bow out, may I wish you all a jolly splendid weekend, whatever are your plans. Thankyou for your time.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

Pax:tiphat:
 
"Portrait:
Dearly beloved friends,
Please do not say that we are your friends when you treat us uncharitably and in an un-Catholic manner.
We all know that A and B are fully persuaded as to the correctness and cogency of their respective arguments and are therefore unlikely to revise or abandon their stance.
That is, frankly, not true. We do not all know that every individual is unwilling to change his stance. I change my views on issues in response to evidence.
I believe that I have submitted sufficient information and evidence that demonstrates the cullturally unhealthy nature of the Potter series of books.
You have not provided any evidence whatsoever.

One can tell because you refuse to provide any evidence whatsoever when asked.

In this post, I ask you no fewer than four separate times to provide any evidence from the books at all. Any at all. You subsequently provided none.

In this post, Phoenix asks you no fewer than seven separate times to provide any evidence from the books at all. Any at all. You subsequently provided none.

In this post, Phoenix asks you again to provide any evidence from the books at all. Any at all. You subsequently provided none.

In this post, jimmy asks you to provide any evidence from the books at all. Any at all. You subsequently provided none.

In this post, I ask you no fewer than six separate times to provide any evidence from the books at all. Any at all. You subsequently provided none.

In this post, Razanir asks you to provide any evidence from the books at all. Any at all. You subsequently provided none.

In this post, jimmy asks you to provide any evidence from the books at all. Any at all. You subsequently provided none.

Were these requests incomprehensible to you? I assume that you are not illiterate, so surely you must have seen them. And yet, no evidence followed. Portrait, can you explain why that is? You were asked over twenty times for a single piece of evidence demonstrating any of your claims about the occult in the books, and yet you have provided zero pieces of evidence. You surely cannot believe that you have “provided sufficient evidence,” and you did not state that any of the requests were unreasonable, you simply ignored them. This is most certainly because you realize that your argument has no basis in reality at all. I will pray for you.
My sincere apologies that I have not been able to address every single post and every point.
Please do not lie to us; it is immoral and disrespectful. You could have, in any one of your flowery and over-long posts, addressed any of the requests for evidence that any of us had. You chose not to, instead responding to claims no one made and pontificating without incorporating any evidence whatsoever despite repeated requests. You did not respond to anyone, let alone someone, in any of your posts.

If you are going to say things that are false, I would suggest you make sure they are not demonstrably false.
One can only hope that the controversy surrounding Harry Potterwill at least challenge men to consider the questions involved from a deeper and wider perspective.
Why would you expect from others what you are not willing to provide yourself?
Rowling, moreover, depicts witchcraft not as a moral issue, but as a matter of heredity.
Yes, because her version of witchcraft is invented.
Therefore we have two falsehoods presented to children who read these so called ‘delightful fantasies’: first, their status as a witch is written into their genes; and second, if they are one of the ‘lucky ones’, then they can employ their powers for good.
They are not falsehoods – Rowling never states that her version of witchcraft is in fact her own opinion on real witchcraft.
Thankyou for your time.
Thank you for wasting ours.
 
In this post, I ask you no fewer than four separate times to provide any evidence from the books at all. Any at all. You subsequently provided none.

In this post, Phoenix asks you no fewer than seven separate times to provide any evidence from the books at all. Any at all. You subsequently provided none.

In this post, Phoenix asks you again to provide any evidence from the books at all. Any at all. You subsequently provided none.

In this post, jimmy asks you to provide any evidence from the books at all. Any at all. You subsequently provided none.

In this post, I ask you no fewer than six separate times to provide any evidence from the books at all. Any at all. You subsequently provided none.

In this post, Razanir asks you to provide any evidence from the books at all. Any at all. You subsequently provided none.

In this post, jimmy asks you to provide any evidence from the books at all. Any at all. You subsequently provided none.

Were these requests incomprehensible to you? I assume that you are not illiterate, so surely you must have seen them. And yet, no evidence followed. Portrait, can you explain why that is? You were asked over twenty times for a single piece of evidence demonstrating any of your claims about the occult in the books, and yet you have provided zero pieces of evidence.
Similarly, one of our camp’s main arguments is that magic is a fundamental law of the universe in Rowling’s world. In parallel to this, I have drawn up the Force and Star Wars no less than five times, and jimmy has mentioned it once, for a total of six mentions of the Force. The Force, in essence, is no different from Rowling’s magic. Both are even genetic to an extent. (Midichlorians: The unwanted answer to the question no one was asking)

I still want to know what you think of Star Wars and the Force, and if your hatred of Harry Potter applies for the same reasons
 
If portrait is unwilling to offer evidence is there any point discussing this with him? Without evidence, all he is doing is pontificating. He has no knowledge of what is actually written in the HP books. All he knows is that the words ‘witch’ and ‘magic’ are used, and consequently JK Rowlings must be a satanist who is trying to drag children to hell. All because the word witch is used. It doesn’t matter that the concept in the book has no correlation to the real world. What is actually said in the books doesn’t matter. What matters is that portrait thinks they are from ‘the darkness’, and therefore they must be. Your evidence is portraits word.
 
If portrait is unwilling to offer evidence is there any point discussing this with him? Without evidence, all he is doing is pontificating. He has no knowledge of what is actually written in the HP books. All he knows is that the words ‘witch’ and ‘magic’ are used, and consequently JK Rowlings must be a satanist who is trying to drag children to hell. All because the word witch is used. It doesn’t matter that the concept in the book has no correlation to the real world. What is actually said in the books doesn’t matter. What matters is that portrait thinks they are from ‘the darkness’, and therefore they must be. Your evidence is portraits word.
What intrigues me, is that despite claiming the books are evil, Portrait knows anything about Voldemort’s backstory. I don’t recall it being mentioned at all until Goblet of Fire, and no details really given until Half-Blood Prince, when it became a focal point of the plot.
 
Dearly beloved friends,
blah blah blah

Portrait

Pax:tiphat:
Portrait, I’ve got to admit that your pseudo English gent shtick gets a bit wearisome.:rolleyes:

I’ve got relatives that talk like that for real (being English of a certain type) and they get up my nose.:yawn:

You’ve not shown any evidence to back up your claims.

The worst (and most truthful) thing that can be said in order to damn the HP series is that they start to get boring and more “tell” and less “show” as they go along.
 
The worst (and most truthful) thing that can be said in order to damn the HP series is that they start to get boring and more “tell” and less “show” as they go along.
I can only remember one time I got bored reading the books, and that was in the middle section of book 7, when they’re moving around doing nothing.

Of course, this is made up for in large part during the finale, because I think “The Prince’s Tale” is Rowling’s best bit of writing in the entire series. Pitch-perfect in every aspect. And the chapter afterward, where Harry sacrifices himself, is also very well-written (and for a chapter where nothing happens except Harry walking, quite captivating).
 
What about subjecting someone to unbearable torture for the sake of revenge, or kicking baby’s heads around for a sport? Are those really innocent and harmless fun? It’s no good calling something “just fiction.” Remember how much Christ emphasized the seriousness of what we do in our hearts, even if it doesn’t translate into action.
 
What about subjecting someone to unbearable torture for the sake of revenge, or kicking baby’s heads around for a sport? Are those really innocent and harmless fun? It’s no good calling something “just fiction.” Remember how much Christ emphasized the seriousness of what we do in our hearts, even if it doesn’t translate into action.
Bellatrix Lestrange is by no means sane, AND she’s a villain. And where is the thing about babies’ heads from?
 
Remember how much Christ emphasized the seriousness of what we do in our hearts, even if it doesn’t translate into action.
Even by that logic, fantasy critics fail (desperately clinging to straws at that).When people do magic in fiction, what is done in their hearts is no different from what is done when they use technology. There are no pacts made with malevolent beings. Everything is completely within human power and control.
 
ehh…This thread doesn’t really need to go on. HP fans will continue reading it and the people against it are going to continue denouncing it. I don’t think anybody is gonna convince anybody. I mean this conversation isn’t going to head any farther, no ground will be made.

Someone was right, I think, when they said for the same reason people are condemning Harry Potter you could also condemn Star Wars and The Lord Of The Rings.

Also, just because something portrays something does not mean it is promoting it. The Holy Bible for example contains many evil deeds, but we all know they are bad deeds.
 
Someone was right, I think, when they said for the same reason people are condemning Harry Potter you could also condemn Star Wars and The Lord Of The Rings.
That would be me
Also, just because something portrays something does not mean it is promoting it. The Holy Bible for example contains many evil deeds, but we all know they are bad deeds.
This

That argument I can understand. But I don’t recall babies’ heads ever being kicked around in Harry Potter.
 
That would be me

This

That argument I can understand. But I don’t recall babies’ heads ever being kicked around in Harry Potter.
OK, OK you said it first. Does it really matter though? The thought should have come to any reasonable person. I may not be as clever, but I do understand the argument. THE FORCE=MAGIC…MAGIC=DE DEBIL…STAR WARS(or HP)=EVIL VOODOO PAGAN BUDDHIST SATANIST GAY HOMOSEXUAL NAZI LIBERAL PROPAGANDA with PEDOPHILE TENDENCIES

Sorry to offend anyone, thats just what it seems like to me…
 
Why is…this…here…?
Perhaps it’s more fitting. 🤷

Then again, it’s the same as always. Someone talks about HP. Folks like Portrait jump in from the Anti-Fantastic League of Intellectual Dishonesty. We come in to set them straight. Thread ends with people once again enlightened on the difference between fact and fiction.
 
Do you think the Harry Potter series is a bad influence on children (witchcraft, etc.) or is it just harmless fun and fantasy?
It’s actually a really healthy influence on children. The series is saturated with traditional Christian symbolism, the way Rowling structures her fantasy is very moral and Christian in its thematic treatment of matters such as death, the series generally presents a vivid and stark black-and-white morality, her portrayal of family life and sexuality is actually quite positive, the books glorify good’s triumph over evil, the series portrays just authority/father figures very positively, etc.
why not encourage kids to read C.S. Lewis’ LW&W series instead? as literature it’s orders of magnitude better than HP and better illustrates christian themes.
Harry Potter is well-written too - especially the last three novels in the series. And Harry Potter, like Narnia, is essentially Christian fantasy - in its imagery, themes, and structures.
Never ceases to amaze me, the amount of Catholics on the forum obsessed with defending harry potter.
No one here is obsessed. Speaking only for myself, I post on a wide variety of topics, chiefly in Eastern Catholicism, Popular Media, and Liturgy and Sacraments.

But of course I defend Harry Potter. When something good and beneficial is attacked unjustifiably, why would I not defend it?
But some of the many rituals and items contained in the series, are VERY real.
No, they’re not. Some of the “rituals and items” weren’t made up by Rowling, but they’re fictional nonetheless (i.e. the philosopher’s stone). The actual spells, though, are all merely fantastical effects accompanied by fake Latin incantations.

The only element in the series that even remotely resembles or approximates real occult practices is divination, which is constantly ridiculed in the series - depicted as frivolous and phony at best, and dangerous at worst. Choosing to act based on what fortune telling reveals continually dooms Voldemort from beginning to end.
Also important, is the fact that almost all Tolkien’s works were set in a fictitious world, where he can make happen whatever he wants.
Actually, in Tolkien’s fantasy world, Middle Earth is our world in the distant past. We live in the Fourth Age of Middle Earth.

Rowling, too, carefully separates her wizarding world from our ordinary world, though in a different way: (a) the wizarding community is socially and thematically sequestered from Muggle society, and (b) magical power is inborn, so ordinary humans like you and I - or like any real-world child who reads the series - would, even if Harry Potter were real, be utterly unable to perform any magic whatsoever.

So Rowling establishes boundaries, too.
Rowling’s, is set in the real world, and so demands at least some realism. This, she provides, and does so based on her vast knowledge of the real world occult.
The Harry Potter series’ magic is about as far from realism as one can get. Seriously, what is even remotely “real world” about waving a stick with unicorn hair in it, shouting something like Petrificus Totalus, and thus instantaneously incapacitating a magical opponent? Or flying on broomsticks evading dragons? Or teleporting around magically? Or traveling by means of fireplaces?
This is my first go-round with a Harry Potter thread. I think by purposeful avoidance and conscious choice. I have never read the books or seen the movies. Not my thing.
Okay. I’m quite familiar with them, though, and they’re really quite wonderful. 🙂
I’d like to jump in and defend Portrait, or at least offer a compliment and some perspective.
As much as I disagree with him (her?), Portrait is a model of patience and charity in these discussions.
Whatever does not lead us towards God leads us away from God. I am questioning if there is anything neutral at all.
A fair point, and Harry Potter is actually quite thematically and structurally Christian, as many critics such as John Granger have exhaustively documented.
 
In any case, Rowling is clearly mixing the real world and the occult.
The fantasy powers portrayed in the Harry Potter series are not occult in any way.
Rowling’s books are unfortunately, too real to be imitated innocently.
What exactly is so “real” about it? It’s the very antithesis of real. Harry Potter characters fly on brooms; they coexist with unicorns and dragons and goblins and giants; the good guys and bad guys zap/blast each other in duels by yelling “Stupefy!”; they teleport around and even travel through time; etc.

You must know it sounds crazy to say they’re “too real to be imitated innocently.”

Watch this video of a scene from the film of the fifth Harry Potter novel, Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix. You can skip the first minute if you like.

Watch that and then tell me with a straight face that there’s anything even remotely “real” about it.
This makes me question whether I even want to be a catholic. Do you people even know what the occult is? I delved into it greatly while I was searching(and I still am searching I guess) and Harry Potter doesn’t have anything to do with practices considered occult. There is one reference to alchemy(the philosopher’s stone), but there are plenty of Christians who during the medieval ages who practiced alchemy as if it was a science. But there is no reference to I-Ching, The Tarot, Kabbalah, Yoga, Astrology, Sufism, Gnosticism, Thelema, Wicca or even big bad Satanism. JK Rowling seems to have no “magical” knowledge beyond the aesthetics of imaginary wizards like Merlin and Gandalf. If you think that HP is occultist than you do not know what the occult is. You seem to be confusing fairy tales with real life religious practices. Rowling owes less to Aleister Crowley or Anton Lavey and more to J.R.R. Tolkien and C.S. Lewis.
Take heart, friend. There are plenty of Catholics who see reason on this matter. This thread is full of people - me included, starting with this post - who are trying to explain why Harry Potter is not harmful. I actually go farther and think it’s a really positive influence on kids.

The only caution I would have is that it can be too scary for some kids. One friend of mine stopped reading as a kid when she got to the part in book one where Voldemort drinks unicorn blood in the forest. My brother, when he was a kid, literally couldn’t finish the fourth book for many years because creepy baby Voldemort was just too frightening for him (he has of course long since finished the series and loves it).
 
No, they’re not. Some of the “rituals and items” weren’t made up by Rowling, but they’re fictional nonetheless (i.e. the philosopher’s stone). The actual spells, though, are all merely fantastical effects accompanied by fake Latin incantations.
Actually, a handful of the people are real. Where by “a handful” I mean “the only one I can think of off the top of my head is Nicolas Flamel– a real person, but not an alchemist because alchemy is absurd”
The only element in the series that even remotely resembles or approximates real occult practices is divination, which is constantly ridiculed in the series - depicted as frivolous and phony at best, and dangerous at worst. Choosing to act based on what fortune telling reveals continually dooms Voldemort from beginning to end.
This
Actually, in Tolkien’s fantasy world, Middle Earth is our world in the distant past. We live in the Fourth Age of Middle Earth.
*Seventh Age, and it was only ever implied by him
 
Here’s an even better example for anyone who’s concerned. Watch that video from 2:30-3:30 and tell me with a straight face that this is real, or even remotely resembles any real-world practice, occult or otherwise.
Actually, a handful of the people are real. Where by “a handful” I mean “the only one I can think of off the top of my head is Nicolas Flamel– a real person, but not an alchemist because alchemy is absurd.”

*Seventh Age, and it was only ever implied by him
Ah, thanks for the corrections and clarifications!
 
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