Harry Potter?

[Maximilan_Kolbe]

I think you might have been talking about me. Not a BDSM fan myself, just for the record!

If that’s the thread I was thinking about, I had come across a long series of chapter-by-chapter posts by an actual BDSM person on the subject of 50 Shades of Grey and shared it, because it was an interesting from-the-horse’s-mouth critique. The blogger argued (with literally dozens of quotes to back this up) that 1) E. L. James doesn’t know a lot about BDSM and 2) E.L. James does seem to know WAY more about the how-tos of abuse.

I remembered it being a dude, but who knows for sure, as I was not a member then. I could find out if I looked back at the topic, but it is of no consequence. I just found it amusing.

 

[SouthCatholic]

I agree with you about the editing. The writing was not nearly “tight” enough. (I think this happens to a lot of series - they get really popular, publisher wants to keep churning them out, but you end up with a not-quite-finished product.)

I also think the last movie was probably the best one. But I found several of them painful to watch.

I boo hooed after Sirius died!

 

[Xantippe]

I boo hooed after Sirius died!

I feel like Rowling killed off a number of characters that the more casual reader (one that had just read the previous books once several years ago, not 15 times each) would have a lot of trouble remembering who they were exactly and why we are supposed to care.

 

[lax16]

Harry Potter is a work of fiction.
Not a lifestyle.
Not a recruitment scheme for the devil.
Not a thing to obsess about.

People who know little about it can find loads to criticize.
It USED to be controversial until people got facts in front of them.
Now it’s just old news.

Obsession is what many Harry Potter fans are all about! I have friends (kids and adults) that dress like the characters, have HP parties, go to Harry Potter at Disney World every year…

Some of the “Harry Potter games” that kids played on the playground at my little girls school were a bit strange. My daughter thought they acted really creepy.

Frankly, it seems kinda weird. What the weirdest thing to me though is people that love HP insisting that people who haven’t read the books absolutely must and are depriving our children of this and that. I refuse to enter into those conversations any more.

(I have not read any of the books or seen any of the movies. I have four children and they were not interested so it never came in the house).

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

I feel like Rowling killed off a number of characters that the more casual reader (one that had just read the previous books once several years ago, not 15 times each) would have a lot of trouble remembering who they were exactly and why we are supposed to care.

Yes, this was an example of her getting caught up in her own legend. Prisoner of Azkaban was by far the best book in my opinion. It is where the series made the transition from a children’s series to a literary work. And Sirius Black was a great character in that book. She then abandoned him until the 5th book where we care about him again and she kills him. Even though I liked the third book it contains in it one of my pet peeves about the series in general. The ending. Ron’s Rat. Scampers who has been around for three books and is just a decoration as a “character” out of nowhere becomes the key player that ties the whole book together. This is poor storytelling. Now, anytime I see this kind of odd “twist” I refer to it as the Ron’s Rat ending. M Knight Shylamalan is NOTORIOUS for this. Perhaps it is the problem of not having the series formulated before writing each book but it leaves foreshadowing out as a legitimate literary tool.
This is where I get a little annoyed when people say Harry Potter and LOTR in the same breath. LOTR is an amazing world that was put together with one singular thought and consistency. Rowling was just as much along for the ride of the story as her readers were. And it shows. The leap from book one to book six shows a completely different author and style. Because she was changing as she wrote. Which adversely effects the story and limits the author’s talent. What little there was to begin with…

This is one of the reasons that in my opinion the movies were better than the books and the LOTR movies were not better than the books. With JK, any director could basically tell the story better than she could…

 

[ToeInTheWater]

Obsession is what many Harry Potter fans are all about! I have friends (kids and adults) that dress like the characters, have HP parties, go to Harry Potter at Disney World every year…

Some of the “Harry Potter games” that kids played on the playground at my little girls school were a bit strange. My daughter thought they acted really creepy.

Frankly, it seems kinda weird. What the weirdest thing to me though is people that love HP insisting that people who haven’t read the books absolutely must and are depriving our children of this and that. I refuse to enter into those conversations any more.

(I have not read any of the books or seen any of the movies. I have four children and they were not interested so it never came in the house).

As I noted before I was really too old to play “Harry Potter games” but I did spend a lot of time on HP websites discussing theories, even wrote some HP fanfiction, etc. I certainly was a “Potterhead” at one time. I wouldn’t really call myself a “fan” now and I do think the latter books were not well edited. I also don’t think JKR has much talent in writing romance (though ironically much of fandom activity was due to “shipping wars”) and I think it might have been better to leave most of it out.

However, interestingly, I recall I got into HP about the same time I got into Jane Austen’s books (yes I was an “advanced” reader, I actually read The Scarlet Letter BEFORE I was assigned to read it for school). Some of you may recall a Jane Austen “boom” around the turn of the century (1990s-2000s), as the *Pride and Prejudice miniseries, the Sense and Sensibility *and Emma movies came out. I was on a JA fansite too and I recall one teenage poster stating her parents wouldn’t let her read the HP books.

Well, I didn’t think it was my place to debate her, but if you merely look at “content” then JA is problematic too though obviously this girl’s parents let her read those books. Characters in both P+P and S+S have gasp sex out of wedlock. S+S refers to a “fallen woman” who has a daughter out of wedlock, who herself goes onto have a baby out of wedlock. And in Emma, one of the major characters, Harriet, is actually gasp born out of wedlock. Mansfield Park features adultery, and one of the characters even makes a joke about homosexual sex! Oddly, “Persuasion” doesn’t have too much of that kind of content but I’m sure I could find some if I looked.

And of course, many secularists would be happy to point out that the Bible contains plenty of references to adultery, incest, rape, murder, yadayada.

The issue here is really not “content” in terms of what themes are covered in a story, but how are they covered? Is sexual sin and violence lingered on in graphic detail? In the case of “magic” I don’t think the mere use of “magic” in a book makes it inappropriate, just as the mere reference to sex in a book makes it so. Lydia running off with Wickham and living in sin with him, is a major plot point that actually sets up the happy endings for the major couples. I doubt most people reading P+P would find Lydia and Wickham to be people to emulate.

 

[Xantippe]

Yes, this was an example of her getting caught up in her own legend. Prisoner of Azkaban was by far the best book in my opinion. It is where the series made the transition from a children’s series to a literary work. And Sirius Black was a great character in that book. She then abandoned him until the 5th book where we care about him again and she kills him. Even though I liked the third book it contains in it one of my pet peeves about the series in general. The ending. Ron’s Rat. Scampers who has been around for three books and is just a decoration as a “character” out of nowhere becomes the key player that ties the whole book together. This is poor storytelling. Now, anytime I see this kind of odd “twist” I refer to it as the Ron’s Rat ending. M Knight Shylamalan is NOTORIOUS for this. Perhaps it is the problem of not having the series formulated before writing each book but it leaves foreshadowing out as a legitimate literary tool.
This is where I get a little annoyed when people say Harry Potter and LOTR in the same breath. LOTR is an amazing world that was put together with one singular thought and consistency. Rowling was just as much along for the ride of the story as her readers were. And it shows. The leap from book one to book six shows a completely different author and style. Because she was changing as she wrote. Which adversely effects the story and limits the author’s talent. What little there was to begin with…

This is one of the reasons that in my opinion the movies were better than the books and the LOTR movies were not better than the books. With JK, any director could basically tell the story better than she could…

Right.

Unfortunately, there probably never would have been books 2-7 had Rowling not gotten financial support as she went along. Tolkien had a day job.

 

[ToeInTheWater]

This is where I get a little annoyed when people say Harry Potter and LOTR in the same breath. LOTR is an amazing world that was put together with one singular thought and consistency. Rowling was just as much along for the ride of the story as her readers were. And it shows. The leap from book one to book six shows a completely different author and style. Because she was changing as she wrote. Which adversely effects the story and limits the author’s talent. What little there was to begin with…

HD, while I don’t quite share your assumption that JKR was making things up as she went along, her worldbuilding was certainly not as extensive as that of Tolkien. And I certainly wouldn’t claim JKR is as much of a literary genius as Tolkien was. But, I actually do NOT think most people are doing that. (Yes, I know one poster did report liking HP more than LOTR but I doubt that’s the consensus.)

The point most people are making when they “say Harry Potter and LOTR in the same breath” is NOT that they are equivalent in terms of literary accomplishment, BUT that the treatment of magic in both works is equivalent. And that if one is going to throw out HP merely because of the use of magic as a plot element, then to be consistent, one must throw out LOTR as well.

(And then of course we can get into nitpicky arguments about how HP and LOTR are different in terms of that particular issue, the use of magic as part of the story.)

 

[Xantippe]

I also don’t think JKR has much talent in writing romance (though ironically much of fandom activity was due to “shipping wars”) and I think it might have been better to leave most of it out.

Right.

Remember the book (6?) with all the talk of “snogging”? SHUDDER

It actually was totally age appropriate that kids that age would suddenly be twitterpated, but I don’t think JKR handled it very well.

 

[ToeInTheWater]

Right.

Remember the book (6?) with all the talk of “snogging”? SHUDDER

It actually was totally age appropriate that kids that age would suddenly be twitterpated, but I don’t think JKR handled it very well.

And ironically, the one romance, Ron and Hermione, that WAS handled age-appropriately and well, was the one JKR later stated WASN’T realistic! Which really showed (IMHO) how clueless she was about writing romance, though I guess the cynics would state that was just a PR attempt to win back some “H/H shippers” who were unhappy at the way the books ended, with Ron and Hermione together.

JKR also wound up sending some questionable messages, though I doubt with any intent, about inter-racial dating. Harry, Ron, and Ginny all date outside their race, but they all wind up marrying (well, technically it’s not stated but implied that Harry married Ginny and Ron married Hermione) and procreating within their race. (And one could argue that Hermione dated a “foreigner” when she went with Viktor Krum to the Yule Ball, which isn’t quite “inter-racial” but is close to it.)

And I remember some fans really were disturbed by this, and thought this sent a message that “people outside your race are fine to have fun with and snog, but not for a serious relationship that leads to marriage”. Even though the major divisions in Wizarding society aren’t racial, and JKR shows marriages between humans and not-quite-humans (Tonks’ marriage to Lupin, and Bill’s marriage to part-veela Fleur), which are considered much more scandalous in-universe than inter-racial marriages. And she did state later that pale red-haired George Weasley married Angelina, who is of African descent. But I know many don’t consider her interviews “canon”.

I also know some who really tried to make the case that the books were Christian, felt betrayed when she revealed that Dumbledore was gay. I prefer to be charitable about that episode though and not assume it was a “sellout” or attempt to pander. Especially because many gay-rights groups actually were offended by her disclosure of this, as Dumbledore’s only confirmed same-sex relationship ended in disaster (I know some wonder if Doge was more than a good friend but it’s never confirmed), and he is depicted as completely celibate in the books after that. And of course Dumbledore turns out to have quite a dark side. I’m sure they’d have much preferred it if she confirmed the popular theory that Sirius and Lupin were a same-sex couple.

ETA: “Snogging” I could stand, but Harry’s “Chest Monster” I could not!

 

[Lou2U]

HD, while I don’t quite share your assumption that JKR was making things up as she went along, her worldbuilding was certainly not as extensive as that of Tolkien. And I certainly wouldn’t claim JKR is as much of a literary genius as Tolkien was. But, I actually do NOT think most people are doing that.** (Yes, I know one poster did report liking HP more than LOTR but I doubt that’s the consensus.)**

Sorry, guys…guess I’ve shown my true colours

Harry Potter just kept my interest more than LOTR, and I’ve grown up with it as well. In my family, it’s famous for being the only series my parents, my brother and myself have all read

Lou

 

[Xantippe]

Sorry, guys…guess I’ve shown my true colours

Harry Potter just kept my interest more than LOTR, and I’ve grown up with it as well. In my family, it’s famous for being the only series my parents, my brother and myself have all read

Lou

I think there are definitely parts of HP that are better than parts of LOTR.

(By the way, those interminable LOTR songs are actually pretty good in the audio version.)

 

[pensmama87]

I think there are definitely parts of HP that are better than parts of LOTR.

(By the way, those interminable LOTR songs are actually pretty good in the audio version.)

They really are a niche thing, at least in text form. I used to skip them, then after reading lots of medieval poetry in college I suddenly “got” them and that helped me appreciate them a lot more.

(Though actually, there were two scenes in The Hobbit movies that I could stand - the riddles in the dark, and the dwarves singing their quest song, which seems kind of silly in print.)

 

[Lou2U]

I think there are definitely parts of HP that are better than parts of LOTR.

(By the way, those interminable LOTR songs are actually pretty good in the audio version.)

I did think about getting an audio version of LOTR, because my brother said they were quite slow paced but I couldn’t find one in my library or the bookshop. I’ll just have to keep on waiting!

(I agree with your other point btw, but I’ll leave it at that… )

Lou

 

[Xantippe]

I did think about getting an audio version of LOTR, because my brother said they were quite slow paced but I couldn’t find one in my library or the bookshop. I’ll just have to keep on waiting!

(I agree with your other point btw, but I’ll leave it at that… )

Lou

LOTR on audio used to be my go-to for the treadmill. It’s very appropriate, as our heroes are usually trudging somewhere. It’s 50+ hours, which is excellent for the treadmill.

 

[on_the_hill]

I have to admit I’ve never read anything by Tolkien and never saw any movies based on anything he’d written. When I was in middle school and high school all my friends were fanatics about Tolkien–probably still are–but I’m kind of oppositional, so if they raved about it there was no way I was going to jump on he bandwagon.

Plus, I’m not about to read a book that has a glossary and such and have to figure out what I’m reading while I’m reading it. That’s work, not leisure.

 

[Xantippe]

Plus, I’m not about to read a book that has a glossary and such and have to figure out what I’m reading while I’m reading it. That’s work, not leisure.

Funny!

I suppose that goes double for Dune?

 

[Kelfa28]

Sorry, guys…guess I’ve shown my true colours

Harry Potter just kept my interest more than LOTR, and I’ve grown up with it as well. In my family, it’s famous for being the only series my parents, my brother and myself have all read

Lou

You’re not alone.

I don’t usually admit that I enjoyed Harry potter far more then LOTR.

Don’t get me wrong, I’ve read both series but Harry Potter had two things going for it that LOTR lacked.

The first being Harry Potter held my attention more and the second being the fact that I started reading Harry Potter on my own at a younger age and it holds a lot of nostalgia for me.

I read LOTR for the first time when I had graduated high school.
Mostly because I had enjoyed the movies so much and also because my dad thought I needed to get into some “real” fantasy fiction because I was into Harry Potter too much.

He was mildly horrified that I wasn’t as into LOTR in the end.
Can you tell he was a Tolkien fan boy?
He read my sister and I The Hobbit when we were young and I think the only time I’ve ever heard him perk up and actually listen to a Catholic homily was when my Parish’s Priest did an entire Easter Vigil homily on Tolkien.

When it comes to LOTR and Harry Potter… I loved the movies of the former and the books of the latter.

 

[historybrat]

Sorry, guys…guess I’ve shown my true colours

Harry Potter just kept my interest more than LOTR, and I’ve grown up with it as well. In my family, it’s famous for being the only series my parents, my brother and myself have all read

Lou

Reminds me bit of one of my sisters. She loved the LOTR/Hobbit movies and is now slowly making her way through the books. She tolerates Harry Potter because she knows I love it, but she definitely just tolerates it. Funny thing is her twin is the exact opposite, loves Harry Potter (books and movies) and tolerates LOTR.

Of course I love both but for completely different reasons.

 

[Sarcelle]

I like both the books of Tolkien and Harry Potter.

My favorite is the Silmarillon.