Harry Potter?

[UbiCaritas]

I see your point.

I just have one question - why do people feel the need to defend Harry Potter so vehemently? Obviously nobody wants to be told that it is evil if it is something they really like to read and watch. And certainly nobody wants to be criticized as a parent.

Who cares if some people claim it is courting the devil? What is it about HP that causes this type of reaction? That is what I find the most concerning.

I think it’s because the claim of Harry Potter is a gateway to the devil is a direct attack on both a parent and their spirituality.

If you tell a parent that Twilight is poorly written (well…it is…), then they can shrug that off and say, “eh, well, my teen’s reading.” (A parenting idea I disagree with, but I digress.) However, if you tell a parent “YOU’RE LETTING YOUR CHILD ENTER THE GATEWAY TO HELL!!!” then the parent’s going to take it a bit more personally, especially when the claims are fuzzy at their very best.

I worked in bookselling when Twilight was at its height and shortly after the last HP book came out. Twilight had plenty of rabid and/or all-out-weird fans, but they were predominantly teenage girls, who often will read at least a little bit anyway. Bear in mind, too, that the 80s/90s were predominantly pretty dark times in children’s literature; most of the stuff written then just wasn’t written well at all, and wouldn’t ever be considered classic, while at the same time the Internet’s used bookstores weren’t available, so it was a lot harder to find the great kids’ books of the 40s/50s/60s/70s (to a point) that had gone out of print long since. Then HP came on the scene, and it was well-written and intelligent and crammed to the hilt with classical references…and appealing. Boom.
HP, however, got a lot of boys (as well as girls) into reading who otherwise wouldn’t have read anything voluntarily ever. It opened a doorway to the wonderful world of books, and many parents saw it as an academic turning point for their boys. From a bookselling perspective, it was awesome, and I’m not talking about the money. Having lots and lots of kids come into the store and want to read, and want to get books, and want to broaden their minds…it was pretty freaking cool.

In conclusion, parents who hear “HARRY POTTER IS SATAN SPELLED NUMEROLOGICALLY!” hear an attack on them as parents and as Christians, plus on a book that changed their kids’ lives for the better in a very tangible way.

(Of course, if HP were Satanic or occult, none of that would excuse letting kids read it, but it’s not.)

 

[Xantippe]

Plus, the list of things that some people think are Satanic is pretty long…

I think it’s because the claim of Harry Potter is a gateway to the devil is a direct attack on both a parent and their spirituality.

If you tell a parent that Twilight is poorly written (well…it is…), then they can shrug that off and say, “eh, well, my teen’s reading.” (A parenting idea I disagree with, but I digress.) However, if you tell a parent “YOU’RE LETTING YOUR CHILD ENTER THE GATEWAY TO HELL!!!” then the parent’s going to take it a bit more personally, especially when the claims are fuzzy at their very best.

I worked in bookselling when Twilight was at its height and shortly after the last HP book came out. Twilight had plenty of rabid and/or all-out-weird fans, but they were predominantly teenage girls, who often will read at least a little bit anyway. Bear in mind, too, that the 80s/90s were predominantly pretty dark times in children’s literature; most of the stuff written then just wasn’t written well at all, and wouldn’t ever be considered classic, while at the same time the Internet’s used bookstores weren’t available, so it was a lot harder to find the great kids’ books of the 40s/50s/60s/70s (to a point) that had gone out of print long since. Then HP came on the scene, and it was well-written and intelligent and crammed to the hilt with classical references…and appealing. Boom.
HP, however, got a lot of boys (as well as girls) into reading who otherwise wouldn’t have read anything voluntarily ever. It opened a doorway to the wonderful world of books, and many parents saw it as an academic turning point for their boys. From a bookselling perspective, it was awesome, and I’m not talking about the money. Having lots and lots of kids come into the store and want to read, and want to get books, and want to broaden their minds…it was pretty freaking cool.

In conclusion, parents who hear “HARRY POTTER IS SATAN SPELLED NUMEROLOGICALLY!” hear an attack on them as parents and as Christians, plus on a book that changed their kids’ lives for the better in a very tangible way.

(Of course, if HP were Satanic or occult, none of that would excuse letting kids read it, but it’s not.)

 

[Bonnie]

Please do a google search on the affects violence on television has on young children. There is a great deal of research showing it is very harmful.

There is disagreement on that. There is also research showing it to be harmless.

 

[Regina7]

Well, the book is quite beautiful. The illustrations are Georgous. The book is also wider and longer, more the size of a picture book. This is definitely aimed towards younger kids.

 

[lax16]

There is disagreement on that. There is also research showing it to be harmless.

I have read article after article that confirms violence on television adversely affects children. I am very interested in reading research to the contrary. Please provide a link. I am unable to find it in my search.

This is also interesting:
psychologytoday.com/blog/get-psyched/201302/why-do-people-deny-violent-media-effects

 

[lax16]

I think it’s because the claim of Harry Potter is a gateway to the devil is a direct attack on both a parent and their spirituality.

If you tell a parent that Twilight is poorly written (well…it is…), then they can shrug that off and say, “eh, well, my teen’s reading.” (A parenting idea I disagree with, but I digress.) However, if you tell a parent “YOU’RE LETTING YOUR CHILD ENTER THE GATEWAY TO HELL!!!” then the parent’s going to take it a bit more personally, especially when the claims are fuzzy at their very best.

I worked in bookselling when Twilight was at its height and shortly after the last HP book came out. Twilight had plenty of rabid and/or all-out-weird fans, but they were predominantly teenage girls, who often will read at least a little bit anyway. Bear in mind, too, that the 80s/90s were predominantly pretty dark times in children’s literature; most of the stuff written then just wasn’t written well at all, and wouldn’t ever be considered classic, while at the same time the Internet’s used bookstores weren’t available, so it was a lot harder to find the great kids’ books of the 40s/50s/60s/70s (to a point) that had gone out of print long since. Then HP came on the scene, and it was well-written and intelligent and crammed to the hilt with classical references…and appealing. Boom.
HP, however, got a lot of boys (as well as girls) into reading who otherwise wouldn’t have read anything voluntarily ever. It opened a doorway to the wonderful world of books, and many parents saw it as an academic turning point for their boys. From a bookselling perspective, it was awesome, and I’m not talking about the money. Having lots and lots of kids come into the store and want to read, and want to get books, and want to broaden their minds…it was pretty freaking cool.

In conclusion, parents who hear “HARRY POTTER IS SATAN SPELLED NUMEROLOGICALLY!” hear an attack on them as parents and as Christians, plus on a book that changed their kids’ lives for the better in a very tangible way.

(Of course, if HP were Satanic or occult, none of that would excuse letting kids read it, but it’s not.)

Yes that would put parents on the defensive. I don’t know parents who have said that HP is the gateway to satan but I am sure it is has happened. Where were you when parents said these things to you? At the bookstore? Were they Catholic?

This topic strikes a nerve for sure.

I hope that the love for reading that these books inspired continues. I work in a high school and the students do not read for the most part. The librarian said to me last week that the library has become obsolete.

I know many women that read Twilight and raved about it. Once again, I haven’t read any of the books or seen the movies.

I am a non- fiction kind of a gal.

 

[twf]

I suppose it could be an occasion of sin for some children who are not yet mature enough to discern between reality and fiction… but I find some of the arguments against it, in general, quite absurd.

1. The common argument that while Lord of the Rings and Narnia shows only “otherworldly” beings performing magic while Harry Potter shows ordinary children doing so is simply false. The wizards in Potter are GENETIC wizards…a completely different race. In fact it is a HUGE plot point that no matter how hard they practice, no matter how hard they try, ordinary human beings (muggles) simply can’t do an iota of magic. Look at Harry’s aunt - she becomes so bitter and resentful that she didn’t inherit the wizard “gene” while her sister did. Message for readers - ordinary people CAN’T do magic.
2. The books show Harry and his friends, time and time again, living out sacrificial love. Good vs evil is clearly depicted with good and love ultimately triumphant.
3. Christian influence: This is especially true in the seventh book where Harry literally lays down his life for his friends and upon rising is able to protect his friends from the Dark Lord’s power. The Christian allusions are clear and obvious - so much so that some atheists complained. Rowling has stated that her Christianity influenced the story. Scripture is quoted. Wasn’t it Dumbledore’s sister’s tomb where we see the inscription “The last enemy to be destroyed shall be death”? I can’t remember where, perhaps in the fifth book, but there was a line that just absolutely shouted Christian influence. Dumbledore explains why Harry survived the Dark Lord’s curse as an infant. He explains that it was his mother’s sacrifice, her supreme act of love laying down her life for her son that saved him. He then goes on to explain that he “took refuge” (his wording) “in her blood”…the shed blood saved Harry. As I noted, Rowling acknowledges the Christian allegoric elements in the novels.

 

[lax16]

I suppose it could be an occasion of sin for some children who are not yet mature enough to discern between reality and fiction… but I find some of the arguments against it, in general, quite absurd.

1. The common argument that while Lord of the Rings and Narnia shows only “otherworldly” beings performing magic while Harry Potter shows ordinary children doing so is simply false. The wizards in Potter are GENETIC wizards…a completely different race. In fact it is a HUGE plot point that no matter how hard they practice, no matter how hard they try, ordinary human beings (muggles) simply can’t do an iota of magic. Look at Harry’s aunt - she becomes so bitter and resentful that she didn’t inherit the wizard “gene” while her sister did. Message for readers - ordinary people CAN’T do magic.
2. The books show Harry and his friends, time and time again, living out sacrificial love. Good vs evil is clearly depicted with good and love ultimately triumphant.
3. Christian influence: This is especially true in the seventh book where Harry literally lays down his life for his friends and upon rising is able to protect his friends from the Dark Lord’s power. The Christian allusions are clear and obvious - so much so that some atheists complained. Rowling has stated that her Christianity influenced the story. Scripture is quoted. Wasn’t it Dumbledore’s sister’s tomb where we see the inscription “The last enemy to be destroyed shall be death”? I can’t remember where, perhaps in the fifth book, but there was a line that just absolutely shouted Christian influence. Dumbledore explains why Harry survived the Dark Lord’s curse as an infant. He explains that it was his mother’s sacrifice, her supreme act of love laying down her life for her son that saved him. He then goes on to explain that he “took refuge” (his wording) “in her blood”…the shed blood saved Harry. As I noted, Rowling acknowledges the Christian allegoric elements in the novels.

Very insightful - this sounds very similar to what the mom I know said about the books.

 

[styrgwillidar]

I suppose it could be an occasion of sin for some children who are not yet mature enough to discern between reality and fiction… but I find some of the arguments against it, in general, quite absurd.

1. The common argument that while Lord of the Rings and Narnia shows only “otherworldly” beings performing magic while Harry Potter shows ordinary children doing so is simply false. The wizards in Potter are GENETIC wizards…a completely different race. In fact it is a HUGE plot point that no matter how hard they practice, no matter how hard they try, ordinary human beings (muggles) simply can’t do an iota of magic. Look at Harry’s aunt - she becomes so bitter and resentful that she didn’t inherit the wizard “gene” while her sister did. Message for readers - ordinary people CAN’T do magic.
2. The books show Harry and his friends, time and time again, living out sacrificial love. Good vs evil is clearly depicted with good and love ultimately triumphant.
3. Christian influence: This is especially true in the seventh book where Harry literally lays down his life for his friends and upon rising is able to protect his friends from the Dark Lord’s power. The Christian allusions are clear and obvious - so much so that some atheists complained. Rowling has stated that her Christianity influenced the story. Scripture is quoted. Wasn’t it Dumbledore’s sister’s tomb where we see the inscription “The last enemy to be destroyed shall be death”? I can’t remember where, perhaps in the fifth book, but there was a line that just absolutely shouted Christian influence. Dumbledore explains why Harry survived the Dark Lord’s curse as an infant. He explains that it was his mother’s sacrifice, her supreme act of love laying down her life for her son that saved him. He then goes on to explain that he “took refuge” (his wording) “in her blood”…the shed blood saved Harry. As I noted, Rowling acknowledges the Christian allegoric elements in the novels.

You left out- the bad guy literally attaches his soul to things of this world out of too great a love for this life, thereby ruining his soul for eternity.

 

[Regina7]

Has anyone read Moira Noonan’s opinion on this? She is a Catholic speaker who used to be involved with the occult/new age stuff.

moiranoonan.com/index.html

 

[twf]

You left out- the bad guy literally attaches his soul to things of this world out of too great a love for this life, thereby ruining his soul for eternity.

That’s true. Harry has compassion for Tom Riddle even to the end, but Dumbledore tells him he is beyond saving - he had chosen eternal suffering by defying natural law (ok the books don’t actually use that term) and destroying his soul…

 

[UbiCaritas]

Plus, the list of things that some people think are Satanic is pretty long…

Ohhhhh yeah. cringes

I was once the recipient of a rant by one mom who asked for “good, clean, preferably Christian” book recommendations for her kids. I was foolish enough to suggest CS Lewis’ “Narnia” series. Apparently, between the witches (umm, always portrayed as bad?), the magic, and the talking animals (clearly demonic familiars!) those books were a one-way ticket to hell for any reader foolish enough to pick them up.

Of course, this was the same woman who, when I subsequently suggested some children’s biographies of famous historic figures, rejected them out-of-hand on the grounds that one of the people featured was Amelia Earhart, who–gasp! Quick, my fainting couch!–wasn’t married to the (male) navigator with whom she flew, and that this was a clear example of Sinful Living. I refrained (heroically, I think) from asking what precisely she thought the two of them could get up to in a small plane many decades before autopilot…

 

[Maximilan_Kolbe]

No dog in the fight, but this reminds me of the Dungeons & Dragons controversy from growing up in the 80s. Man I loved that game and cartoon.

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

 

[UbiCaritas]

Yes that would put parents on the defensive. I don’t know parents who have said that HP is the gateway to satan but I am sure it is has happened. Where were you when parents said these things to you? At the bookstore? Were they Catholic?

This topic strikes a nerve for sure.

I hope that the love for reading that these books inspired continues. I work in a high school and the students do not read for the most part. The librarian said to me last week that the library has become obsolete.

I know many women that read Twilight and raved about it. Once again, I haven’t read any of the books or seen the movies.

I am a non- fiction kind of a gal.

I lived (still do) in the Bible belt at the time. There are some fairly wacky ideas out there. (I should add that my all-caps quotes were a bit tongue-in-cheek.) We used to periodically have to spend extra time after closing going through some of the sections to clear out the Jack Chick tracts that some…considerate…person felt compelled to shove into the books.

I grew up in extremely conservative homeschooling circles; mostly traditional Catholic, but with a heavy influence from some fundamentalist Protestants. “Harry Potter is Satanic” was a given in most of those circles. I said little, would roll my eyes quietly, and then go buy the latest book and read it avidly cover-to-cover in one or two sittings. In those circles, as Xantippe mentioned, just about everything can be made to be “satanic.” I once heard a woman insist one shouldn’t buy Japanese cars because the models are all named after demons, though to be fair, I don’t think many other people agreed. Not allowing Halloween fun of any variety was SOP, ditto not allowing kids to associate with those parents who did let them trick-or-treat. Some of the parents, though admittedly they were in the minority, didn’t allow Christmas trees because of pagan associations. Others, of the Catholic stripe, didn’t give their kids Christmas presents until Epiphany because giving presents on Christmas would detract from Jesus’ birth, and if Jesus had to wait, so did you.

When parents hear that HP is bad, they tend to associate that idea with varieties of the above-described crazy. Which is actually rather unfortunate: it means that HP is rarely properly debated, as it has been on this thread; instead, people react to it emotionally based either on “I loved it, and you must be one of those crazies not to” or “I’ve never read it, but Everyone Knows that HP is eeeeeevil!”

Oh, and for the record, I did read the first Twilight book because as a bookseller I tried to read at least some of the really popular books so as to be able to give an opinion on them when asked. I intended to read all of them for that reason, but the first was so ghastly that I only skimmed the last three; I felt I was not paid enough to spend my free time reading that tripe.

 

[Xantippe]

I lived (still do) in the Bible belt at the time. There are some fairly wacky ideas out there. (I should add that my all-caps quotes were a bit tongue-in-cheek.) We used to periodically have to spend extra time after closing going through some of the sections to clear out the Jack Chick tracts that some…considerate…person felt compelled to shove into the books.

I grew up in extremely conservative homeschooling circles; mostly traditional Catholic, but with a heavy influence from some fundamentalist Protestants. “Harry Potter is Satanic” was a given in most of those circles. I said little, would roll my eyes quietly, and then go buy the latest book and read it avidly cover-to-cover in one or two sittings. In those circles, as Xantippe mentioned, just about everything can be made to be “satanic.” I once heard a woman insist one shouldn’t buy Japanese cars because the models are all named after demons, though to be fair, I don’t think many other people agreed. Not allowing Halloween fun of any variety was SOP, ditto not allowing kids to associate with those parents who did let them trick-or-treat. Some of the parents, though admittedly they were in the minority, didn’t allow Christmas trees because of pagan associations. Others, of the Catholic stripe, didn’t give their kids Christmas presents until Epiphany because giving presents on Christmas would detract from Jesus’ birth, and if Jesus had to wait, so did you.

When parents hear that HP is bad, they tend to associate that idea with varieties of the above-described crazy. Which is actually rather unfortunate: it means that HP is rarely properly debated, as it has been on this thread; instead, people react to it emotionally based either on “I loved it, and you must be one of those crazies not to” or “I’ve never read it, but Everyone Knows that HP is eeeeeevil!”

Yes.

Your no-gifts-until-Epiphany people would hate it that in places that do St. Nicholas’s day on Dec. 6, kids get a month-long advantage over Baby Jesus.

(St. Nicholas’s is to this day a big deal in Bavaria.)

My Protestant grandma would regretfully mention the possible pagan issues with Christmas trees–and then have the biggest, shiniest one on the block.

And then there are people like Jehovah’s Witnesses, who don’t do Christmas or birthdays. Fun!

 

[Xantippe]

Also, I grew up in the Assemblies of God, and we had a “Harvest Party” instead of Halloween.

 

[Memaw]

Obsession is what many Harry Potter fans are all about! I have friends (kids and adults) that dress like the characters, have HP parties, go to Harry Potter at Disney World every year…

Some of the “Harry Potter games” that kids played on the playground at my little girls school were a bit strange. My daughter thought they acted really creepy.

Frankly, it seems kinda weird. What the weirdest thing to me though is people that love HP insisting that people who haven’t read the books absolutely must and are depriving our children of this and that. I refuse to enter into those conversations any more.

(I have not read any of the books or seen any of the movies. I have four children and they were not interested so it never came in the house).

I agree, and why parents would ever take the chance on exposing their innocent kids to something like that is way beyond me. Their minds are so precious and learn so fast but to fill them up with this trash is a shame. I knew a 5 year old boy that could speak fluently in 5 different languages and he hadn’t even started school yet. . His dad was an interpreter. My kids, (7) could say ALL the prayers I knew, including the Act of Contrition, Apostles Creed, St. Michael, all the nursery rhymes I knew and they knew just about every commercial on TV, (all were decent at the time,) by the time the were 2-3 years old, even lead the Rosary at that time. I babysit my grandkids while there moms worked and they could too. I had my preschool grandaughters reading before they even started kindergarten. The point I’m making is their little minds are so clear and full of room for learning and why in the world would we want to fill it with trash!! God Bless, Memaw

 

[styrgwillidar]

That’s true. Harry has compassion for Tom Riddle even to the end, but Dumbledore tells him he is beyond saving - he had chosen eternal suffering by defying natural law (ok the books don’t actually use that term) and destroying his soul…

Well, what Dumbledore tells him is that Tom’s only hope is true remorse over the evil he has done. Remorse which, at that level, will be very painful- to face and recognize that evil and pain he has caused to others it, empathize and truly regret it. Kind of consistent with Christian teaching, the parable of the workers in the field, the prodigal son, the criminal on the cross next to Jesus.

[One of the moral flaws in the book to my mind was Harry deciding to confront Tom/Voldemort mano-a-mano when he could have taken him from concealment. He’s basically responsible for the safety of millions of people and he throws away a higher odds chance of success for a much riskier face-to-face confrontation. Especially since Harry intended and in fact attempted to disarm vice hurt Tom/Voldemort anyway]

 

[Bonnie]

[One of the moral flaws in the book to my mind was Harry deciding to confront Tom/Voldemort mano-a-mano when he could have taken him from concealment. He’s basically responsible for the safety of millions of people and he throws away a higher odds chance of success for a much riskier face-to-face confrontation. Especially since Harry intended and in fact attempted to disarm vice hurt Tom/Voldemort anyway]

There was a similar problem with the one Batman movie I saw (with Heath Ledger). At the end, even tho the Joker has shown a remarkable ability to escape from jails & absolutely no remorse, Batman chooses to spare his life & turn him over to the authorities. So millions of lives are in jeopardy because Batman chooses the law over safety of others.

 

[edlinked]

HI,
I got curious about this when I was watching recently an old ewtn live video with Father Mitch Pacwa and Joseph Pearce talking about the Hobbit, and there was a comment about Harry Potter and why it was seen as a bad fantasy. So that caught my attention, then I found this thread and thought the ewtn live video was a good watch (as people are talking about LOTR also) for people that have not seen it. The comment regarding harry potter begins from minute 45:16-48:25, and they are just answering a question a caller made (so they do not talk about that much).

youtube.com/watch?v=i7NVZ1OcrKQ

I just wanted to add, Father Don Callaway (one of the youtube links another poster added on post #35) has a very good Journey Home show (two videos with Marcus Grodi found on ewtns youtube channel), if some are interested (I don’t know the priest, but I just thought about adding that, because I don’t think his intentions are bad and he should warn us if he thinks something for him doesn’t add up).

With what I am going to write I am not trying to state what books should people read or what is my take on these books morally, because I haven’t read those books (and I have not that kind of knowledge). I just wanted to add a general thought, something to think about (everyone has an opinion right lol, I hope it is not a bad one): Evil or bad options doesn’t come with a punch in the face, they come with “temptation” (something pleasurable that makes deciding “difficult” making us doubt in what we already see or saw as good or even blinding us to see good) which makes them an “easier favorable way”, and in the doubt of not knowing where good really resides (and how to do true good), lies “our” option to sin (as it is a personal decision). For if we really knew where good truly was (and how to achieve it), we would see it as the only choice (for example, a parent can sacrifice for their children without thinking about the option of not sacrificing. The sacrifice of something wouldn’t be seen as a sacrifice, for it is the good choice to make, as it is good. Something truly good is not even taken as an option, we don’t do anything to hurt our children, for example, the option to do them wrong doesn’t “exist” for us, even if it’s there). Therefore we need to see the basic principles of things and where they come from, to know where they are heading. Because there, is where we will find the truth about things and see if they are good or bad, and more importantly follow the good things. In my case, that’s the difficulty, and the place where we need to be careful. For you to do good there is no bad I can do, for then I would be doing bad. For you to do good we need to clearly see what is good and what is bad. I can’t state what I think about harry potter, but I would think I would look very carefully (to be very prudent), about why some priests can have the thinking that something is questionable, for maybe they see something that I can’t see (so that I know about it and clearly state good and bad actions). Because if I can’t see it and it’s an important principle, I can be teaching something bad that in the future, it will not turn up to be good, for it didn’t follow goodness. That’s why we follow the Church and not ourselves, her tradition and knowledge are protected by the Spirit for He guides her, for only He has the word of eternal life. We can do and read all the things we want, but sometimes even if we don’t see the bad turns we take or can take, we have to know that, that’s a possibility, and the only way to cut the chances to fall or be wrong in our discernment, is if we are fortifying our spirit and soul with His Spirit (constantly in our lives through the Church teachings and sacraments). In my opinion this is the science of good and evil and sometimes it is not easy to correctly discern on it, so I would say be careful for watching out for what you can’t see, for maybe there, is where you are not looking clearly.