Has a whole Church ever ceased to exist?

  • Thread starter Thread starter DL82
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
D

DL82

Guest
Has a whole sui iuris Church, i.e. one with its’ own rites, patriarch, etc. (whether Catholic or Orthodox) ever completely ceased to exist? If that happened, could another patriarch intervene to give it back some bishops and priests to bring it back into existence?

Does Christ’s promise that the gates of hell will not prevail against THE Church cover each separate sui juris Church, or only the whole Christian communion?
 
There were the Irish and Gallic Rites that no longer exist. Is that what you mean? These were lost due to Latinizations. 😉
 
Volodymyr_988 said:
There were the Irish and Gallic Rites that no longer exist. Is that what you mean? These were lost due to Latinizations. 😉
Click to expand...
Those were rites within the Latin Church, as far as I’m aware, they weren’t separate Churches with their own sui iuris structure.

I’m thinking more in terms of things like the Greek Orthodox Church or the Maronite Church, a whole autonomous church, with its’ own patriarch, its’ own disciplines, etc. Has one of those ever existed that doesn’t exist today?
 
I don’t know, but haven’t some of the Churches that were written to in the Book of Revelation, like Ephesus and Pergamum, no longer existant? These used to be major centers in the beginnings of Christianity, but we no longer hear about them today.
 
DL82 said:
Those were rites within the Latin Church, as far as I’m aware, they weren’t separate Churches with their own sui iuris structure.

I’m thinking more in terms of things like the Greek Orthodox Church or the Maronite Church, a whole autonomous church, with its’ own patriarch, its’ own disciplines, etc. Has one of those ever existed that doesn’t exist today?
Click to expand...
One could argue that the Irish Church and the English Church were Sui Juris churches of some sort. Especially considering that the Irish and English were separated from the rest of the West for some time.
 
The Church of Sinai has always been an Autocephalous Church, but Jerusalem is claiming jurisdiction over it.
 
The term sui iuris is an innovation of CCEO (Codex Canonum Ecclesiarum Orientalium - Code of Canons of the Oriental Churches) and it denotes the relative autonomy of the oriental Catholic Churches.
Click to expand...
It is peculiar to speak of sui iuris churches which no longer exist when the term sui iuris itself did not used to exist…before the 20th century
 
Codex Canonum Ecclesiarum Orientalium - even the title of this denotes to me a sort of Indian reservation colonialist mentality. I think Fr. Robert Taft would agree. It seems to me that the Latin Church thinks the Eastern Churches can not make their own canons for themselves. The Latin Church seems to feel it knows best and will take good care of us Orientals with all it’s latin laws. The same way France was officially the “protector” of Lebanon’s christians, not it’s colonial master.

It seems to me if a code like that in latin did not exist before the first millenium it should not exist today either. At the very least the code could be in greek rather than latin.
 
About the original subject:

Besides different western rituals and liturgies no longer being used, which could possibly have made them unique churches, I only know of 2 Churches no longer existing.

The Nubian Church and the Pro-consular African Church which had unique traditions exising for many centuries that no longer exist.

Various Assyrian Mission Churches throughout Asia from Afghanistan to China no longer exist, some existed for 2 or 300 years .
 
The Nubian Church and the Pro-consular African Church which had unique traditions exising for many centuries that no longer exist.
Click to expand...
Do either of these correspond to St. Augustine’s Church? I know that he belonged to a ritual tradition that was distinct from Rome’s, but I know next to nothing about it other than that it was different.

Peace and God bless!
 
bpbasilphx said:
The Church of Sinai has always been an Autocephalous Church, but Jerusalem is claiming jurisdiction over it.
Click to expand...
This is the first I had heard about this - though I certainly don’t doubt you.

Do you have more info?
 
ASimpleSinner said:
This is the first I had heard about this - though I certainly don’t doubt you.

Do you have more info?
Click to expand...
**Earlier editions of Timothy Ware’s THE ORTHODOX CHURCH talked about Sinai being autocephalous. Later ones refer to her as autonomous under Jerusalem.

I understand that Sinai does not recognize this developpment, but it led to Jerusalem’s boycotting some big celebration in Russia.**
 
For a while, all of North Africa was Christian … where St. Augustine lived … in modern-day Libya and Tunisia … but that’s pretty much all gone now.

Don’t know if that qualifies.
 
Al_Masetti said:
For a while, all of North Africa was Christian … where St. Augustine lived … in modern-day Libya and Tunisia … but that’s pretty much all gone now.

Don’t know if that qualifies.
Click to expand...
That’s what I’m wondering about. We know that they were different from othr traditions, but I don’t know if we know how.

Peace and God bless!
 
The Georgian Catholic Church currently has no recognized parishes or clergy to my knowledge.
 
Diak said:
The Georgian Catholic Church currently has no recognized parishes or clergy to my knowledge.
Click to expand...
Are there any Catholic who are technically Georgian Catholic even though they have no parihses. It seems that the Georgian Catholic Church would live on in its faithful.
 
Certainly that is possible, if not probable.

I would imagine the remnant Georgian Greek Catholic faithful may fall into one of four camps - have become Orthodox, have become Latin, or if still Eastern Catholic attend either Ukrainian Greek Catholic or Armenian Catholic liturgies to retain their Eastern Catholic identity.
FDRLB
 
Ghosty said:
Do either of these correspond to St. Augustine’s Church? I know that he belonged to a ritual tradition that was distinct from Rome’s, but I know next to nothing about it other than that it was different.

Peace and God bless!
Click to expand...
I am under the impression that Augustine’s side of North africa was very similar to Rome liturgically.

I think a case can be made that at one time their was ritual church status for the gaelic churches in Ireland and Scotland, as well as for the romano-british church.
 
This is a very real and very serious issue relevant to all Christians today. The present government of Turkey is applying extreme pressure on the Patriarchate of Constantinople, slowly squeezing it out of existence. The main seminary in Turkey has been closed, meaning any priests would need to go to Greece (a historic enemy of Turkey) for instruction. Upon returning, these Turkish priests could be arrested for “insulting Turkishness” by preaching this Greek theology. This would be even more likely if Turkey slides from being a secular country to being an Islamic country.

If Turkey officially becomes an Islamic nation instead of a secular nation, it is very possible that they could expel all Christians (those not willing to accept dhimmitude or convert to Islam.) IF this is the case, Islam would succeed in removing a Christian Patriarchate that has existed for longer than Islam.

So, would the Patriarchate of Constantinople still exist if it could no longer reside in Istanbul (formerly Constantinople)?

If the Patriarch were forced to move to Greece, would the Patriarchate move with him?

If the Patriarch and all priests and religious in Turkey were beheaded, would the Patriarchate cease to exist?

And if the beheadings occur, would authority or primacy in the Orthodox world move to the Patriarchate of Moscow, which was established as a “hedge” before Constantinople was conquered against this very thing?

(It also has relevancy to Roman Catholics, since a number of saints have spoken of the end times, where the Pope is forced to flee Rome.)

<><
 
I imagine he would just have a patriarchate in exile. Its a pretty bad situation though, from what I have read.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top