Has Adoration Replaced Good Liturgy?

[Volodymyr_988]

I’ve been all around these United States and in Ireland and Rome. I have seen traditional looking parishes and some that make the local Baptist church look good. I’ve noticed that the less traditional looking parishes always have a special chapel for Adoration where the Tabernacle resides, yet have the worst Masses I’ve ever attended.

Do you think that the rise in Liturgical abuses and church wreckovations has given rise to more hours of Adoration? From what I have read, before Vatican II there was no 24-7 Adoration. Many Churches would do a 40 Hours Devotion here and there, but having Perpetual Exposition of the Blessed Sacrament was not anything that a parish would do.

It seems that the Suburban Catholics care more that they have Adoration more than they care for having a beautiful church that glorifies God and having a proper Liturgy. The proper Liturgy being the most important part, of course.

 

[T700]

“Do you think that the rise in Liturgical abuses and church wreckovations has given rise to more hours of Adoration?”

No. I absolutely don’t see any correlation. One of the greatest errors in statistical reporting is to incorrectly link cause and effect. Doing so gives you classic errors such as, “All babies drink milk. All murderers were babies at one time. Therefore, milk causes people to become killers.”

Paul

 

[malphono]

I’ve been all around these United States and in Ireland and Rome. I have seen traditional looking parishes and some that make the local Baptist church look good. I’ve noticed that the less traditional looking parishes always have a special chapel for Adoration where the Tabernacle resides, yet have the worst Masses I’ve ever attended.

Do you think that the rise in Liturgical abuses and church wreckovations has given rise to more hours of Adoration? From what I have read, before Vatican II there was no 24-7 Adoration. Many Churches would do a 40 Hours Devotion here and there, but having Perpetual Exposition of the Blessed Sacrament was not anything that a parish would do.

It seems that the Suburban Catholics care more that they have Adoration more than they care for having a beautiful church that glorifies God and having a proper Liturgy. The proper Liturgy being the most important part, of course.

That’s a very interesting observation. You may be on to something, but then again, maybe not. There’s one parish I know of which is fairly orthodox (they offer the EF weekly as a Low Mass and monthly as a High Mass) that also has a “perpetual Adoration” in the chapel. But the chapel is just that. The tabernacle resides in the main church. They periodically do Benediction, and that is always in the main church. But of course the regular schedule even there is the OF, which I do not voluntarily attend anyway, so I can’t speak for how it’s done. I know the young curate, though, who is the driving force behind the EF there and who takes little guff, so I expect at least his Masses in the OF are more-or-less “by the book” without innovations.

In pre-conciliar times, yes, there was the “Forty Hours” devotion. While I don’t recall the interval, it was periodic. In those days, the norm was for the Sacrament to be reserved in the church proper. When Mass was offered during the “Forty Hours” it was Coram Sanctissimo, the details of which escape me, but there were differences. (I haven’t heard of Missa Coram Sanctissimo in more than 40 years.)

Anyway, I’m not sure about the US, and I could well be wrong about the next remark, but I seem to think that “Perpetual Adoration” was done in some places in Europe, and perhaps elsewhere.

 

[grannymh]

I’ve been all around these United States and in Ireland and Rome. I have seen traditional looking parishes and some that make the local Baptist church look good. I’ve noticed that the less traditional looking parishes always have a special chapel for Adoration where the Tabernacle resides, yet have the worst Masses I’ve ever attended.

Do you think that the rise in Liturgical abuses and church wreckovations has given rise to more hours of Adoration? From what I have read, before Vatican II there was no 24-7 Adoration. Many Churches would do a 40 Hours Devotion here and there, but having Perpetual Exposition of the Blessed Sacrament was not anything that a parish would do.

It seems that the Suburban Catholics care more that they have Adoration more than they care for having a beautiful church that glorifies God and having a proper Liturgy. The proper Liturgy being the most important part, of course.

Dear Volodymyr,

Would you believe that I was trying to leave my public profile and landed here?

I’ve noticed that the less traditional looking parishes always have a special chapel for Adoration where the Tabernacle resides, yet have the worst Masses I’ve ever attended.

Did you check to see if there was actual Eucharistic Adoration scheduled for these chapels? Or were they the ones added so that the tabernacle could be removed from the main church? What kind of relationship between Eucharistic Adoration and the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass are you referring to?

Do you think that the rise in Liturgical abuses and church wreckovations has given rise to more hours of Adoration?

No. The credit for the increase in Eucharistic Adoration belongs to the Holy Spirit.

From what I have read, before Vatican II there was no 24-7 Adoration.

Some records indicate the possibility of Perpetual Eucharistic Adoration fourteen centuries ago in Spain. Adoration of the reserved Blessed Sacrament dates to the early Church.

It seems that the Suburban Catholics care more that they have Adoration more than they care for having a beautiful church that glorifies God and having a proper Liturgy.

I am not sure I understand the relationship between adoring Jesus Christ, truly present, Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity, in the Blessed Sacrament and a beautiful church that glorifies God and having a proper Liturgy. Are you referring to “church” as the Mystical Body of Christ? I do understand that the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass properly leads to adoration of the Blessed Sacrament.

The proper Liturgy being the most important part, of course

.
Please excuse my ignorance. As I said, due to mysterious technology, I landed here. I don’t think I am in the Land of Oz. However, I’m not familiar with “proper Liturgy” in the way you are using it. I am very concerned that the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is celebrated properly in accord with Vatican norms.

It seems to me, that there are a lot more questions about Eucharistic Adoration than appear in your post. I would like to discuss whatever is brought up.

Information sources:

In the Presence of Our Lord - the History, Theology, and Psychology of Eucharistic Devotion
–Book with the Nihil Obstat and* Imprimatur*.
by Father Benedict J. Groeschel, C.F.R., and Jame Monti ISBN: 0-87973-920-7


Go to the left column and click “Meet Bishop Doran.”
Then click Bishop Doran’s “Pastoral Letter on the Eucharist”, 1997.
Or try

Blessings,
granny

All human life is sacred.

 

[Volodymyr_988]

In the East, where there is no ancient record of Adoration, the Liturgy is still performed properly. I have yet to hear of widespread Liturgical abuse and I have my finger on the pulse of the Eastern and “Oriental” Churches-Catholic and Orthodox.

Many times I have seen it written and have heard it with my own ears:

“The Eucharist is for chewing not for looking at.”

I believe in the Transubstantiated Presence of Our Lord in the Eucharist, and probably more than most due to a special revelation. But it seems to me that with the decline in proper Liturgy came the rise in Adoration, thanks to John Paul the Great (Santo Subito!)

I’m especially thinking of the monstrosities I witnessed in Arkansas where the people were so proud of their stark worship spaces that looked like the Borg Mother Ship in Los Angeles. They were especially proud of this Tabernacle thing with a revolving door behind the altar table where one could worship the Eucharist in the back and also pass through it to the sanctuary. This type of structure was found in both churches that I entered.

 

[malphono]

Volodymyr, there may be a correlation, but if so, it would seem to be coincidental. The decline in liturgical observance in the Latin Church (and, sadly, in some places in the East and Orient as well) is 40+ years old. The business of “Perpetual Adoration” is much more recent, and far less widespread.

 

[Volodymyr_988]

“Do you think that the rise in Liturgical abuses and church wreckovations has given rise to more hours of Adoration?”

No. I absolutely don’t see any correlation. One of the greatest errors in statistical reporting is to incorrectly link cause and effect. Doing so gives you classic errors such as, “All babies drink milk. All murderers were babies at one time. Therefore, milk causes people to become killers.”

Paul

I am aware of the post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy. This might be a cum hoc ergo propter hoc but since in the Eastern Catholic Churches (except the heavily Latinized ones) this still does not occur, I contend that the rise in poor Liturgy and the sharp decline in available priests led to the yearning of the faithful for some sort of more traditional forms of worship.

 

[T700]

Ask yourself, “Why would liturgical abuses cause an increase in Eucharistic adoration?” What leads you to believe there is a valid cause and effect? Over the same time period, I will wager that you could cite many trends; why not one of those as the prime mover for increased Eucharistic adoration?

Perhaps you are correct, but until someone can show me some reasonable linkage, it seems to me prima facie, wrong.

[You and I posted at the same time. This is in response to that posting.]

It is an interesting idea that the destruction of traditional things made the people yearn for a traditional practice, but I still do not the linkage. I think we will just have to agree to disagree, at least until more evidence can be gathered. This would make an good idea for a study, I think.

Paul

 

[grannymh]

I am aware of the post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy. This might be a cum hoc ergo propter hoc but since in the Eastern Catholic Churches (except the heavily Latinized ones) this still does not occur, I contend that the rise in poor Liturgy and the sharp decline in available priests led to the yearning of the faithful for some sort of more traditional forms of worship.

Dear Volodymyr,

My Latin is rusty. Would you please translate the fallacies? Also, I’m beginning to understand where you are coming from but need to listen more.
My contact with Eastern Churches is spending a couple of days talking with the priest of the Russian Orthodox Cathedral in Sitka, Alaska. I did attend their liturgy after attending the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass at the Catholic Church down the street.
I was also at the 49th International Eucharistic Congress in Quebec and attended an Eastern Rite Mass.

Blessings,
granny

All humanity belongs at the foot of Christ on the cross.

 

[Dauphin]

For me, it certainly acts as a substitute for good liturgy. It fills in the sense of mystery, dignity, and longing adoration which is missing in the painful, anemic stuff which is so common in our churches.

 

[grannymh]

For me, it certainly acts as a substitute for good liturgy. It fills in the sense of mystery which is missing in the painful, anemic stuff which is so common in our churches.

Dear Dauphin,

Eucharistic Adoration is amazing. But it can never substitute for the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass itself. In truth, it flows from the Mass, when the Priest lifts up the Consecrated Host for our adoration. Eucharistic Adoration draws us right back to the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass as we long to receive Our Lord personally in Holy Communion.

No matter how rotten the painful, anemic stuff (as you described), the truth is that Holy Mass is still the re-presented, unbloody Act of Salvation. The words of Consecration remain the same powerful words regardless of the bad music.

Blessings,
granny

All human beings benefit from the Real Presence of Jesus Christ among us.

 

[Dauphin]

Dear Dauphin,

Eucharistic Adoration is amazing. But it can never substitute for the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass itself. In truth, it flows from the Mass, when the Priest lifts up the Consecrated Host for our adoration. Eucharistic Adoration draws us right back to the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass as we long to receive Our Lord personally in Holy Communion.

No matter how rotten the painful, anemic stuff (as you described), the truth is that Holy Mass is still the re-presented, unbloody Act of Salvation. The words of Consecration remain the same powerful words regardless of the bad music.

Blessings,
granny

All human beings benefit from the Real Presence of Jesus Christ among us.

I understand that it can’t really substitute, but adoration still fills a very fundamental need that the liturgy, as it is commonly celebrated, does not.

Believe me, I’d much prefer to be able to serve Low Mass in the 1962 Missal every day, but I don’t have the opportunity. Low Mass has the sense of dignity, mystery, and reverence for which adoration acts as a substitute.

http://www.tridentine.tv/quiet_mass.gif

 

[PKinsale]

Re:

“The Eucharist is for chewing not for looking at.”

This is just plain wrong. It implies one cannot have both.

And what of those who cannot receive Our Lord in the Eucharist, for whatever reason? Are they to be deprived of the gift and grace of being able to adore him?

 

[Volodymyr_988]

PKinsale,

This comes from Orthodox or Byzantine Rite Catholics (of which ever Church, I can’t remember) in which the Eucharist consists of both Species in the Chalice. Not much to look at there, can’t put Him in a monstrance that way.

 

[Volodymyr_988]

Volodymyr, there may be a correlation, but if so, it would seem to be coincidental. The decline in liturgical observance in the Latin Church (and, sadly, in some places in the East and Orient as well) is 40+ years old. The business of “Perpetual Adoration” is much more recent, and far less widespread.

Actually, I think it proves my point. With any replacement, there will be a lag time until it arrives from when the problem started.

 

[I_Believe]

I’ve been all around these United States and in Ireland and Rome. I have seen traditional looking parishes and some that make the local Baptist church look good. I’ve noticed that the less traditional looking parishes always have a special chapel for Adoration where the Tabernacle resides, yet have the worst Masses I’ve ever attended.

Do you think that the rise in Liturgical abuses and church wreckovations has given rise to more hours of Adoration?

No, but I’m sure it has lead to more prayers of Reparation. I do my part

From what I have read, before Vatican II there was no 24-7 Adoration. Many Churches would do a 40 Hours Devotion here and there, but having Perpetual Exposition of the Blessed Sacrament was not anything that a parish would do.

It seems that the Suburban Catholics care more that they have Adoration more than they care for having a beautiful church that glorifies God and having a proper Liturgy. The proper Liturgy being the most important part, of course.

Well, depends where one lives. The grand old churches in the eastern states were built long before the churches out west were built. And the typical suburban parish built after WWII tends to be less striking. Funds dictated the design.

Adoration ?

There are three ways to remove oneself from the mundane, filthy world we live in, and place ourselves before God the Father.

The Mass

Adoration

Prayer - the common demoninator in all things and ways we strive to reach out to God, be it praise or pettition.

The Mass is the highest prayer of the Church, and Adoration is arguably the highest form of non-liturgical devotion.

Exposition and Benediction of the Blessed Sacrament should be mentioned as well.

Private prayer and devotions are of course part of the practice of Catholicism.

But no, only on a personal level would one find Adoration to be preferable to The Mass. And the only way I can find it reasonable to assume one might place Adoration above the Mass is if that person was in a parish in which irreverent things were happening in the Sanctuary during Mass.

Most parishes here in town that have Adoration on a regularly scheduled basis seem to draw a smaller percentage of the flock than vice versa. So unless a parish has equal or higher attendence for Adoration, I fail to see how a trend could be observed in regard to it replacing “A Good Liturgy”.

It doesn’t matter whether Adoration is encouraged by a Pope, a sede priest, Hans Kung, or a lttle old lady in her '90’s. It builds Faith. It’s Catholic.

Interestingly, the two strictly traditional chapels here in town, one SSPX and the other Independent, don’t have Adoration Chapels or scheduled Adoration.

“The Eucharist is for chewing not for looking at.”

I know you said you heard it said, and didn’t say it yourself, but it’s very troubling. It’s not something I’d expect a Catholic to say. At least one that understands the Mass and has Faith in the Real Presence. To state such would in fact dismiss the Elevation at the very least.

 

[I_Believe]

Re:

“The Eucharist is for chewing not for looking at.”

This is just plain wrong. It implies one cannot have both.

And what of those who cannot receive Our Lord in the Eucharist, for whatever reason? Are they to be deprived of the gift and grace of being able to adore him?

Good point. Making a Spiritual Communion before the Blessed Sacrament, whether in the Tabernacle or Exposed, builds Faith.

And one had better gaze upon the Most Blessed Sacrament in humble adoration during the Elevation and at the words “Behold the Lamb of God, behold Him who takes away the sins of the world.”

“The Eucharist is for chewing not for looking at.” ?

That phrase is blasphemous.

 

[PKinsale]

PKinsale,

This comes from Orthodox or Byzantine Rite Catholics (of which ever Church, I can’t remember) in which the Eucharist consists of both Species in the Chalice. Not much to look at there, can’t put Him in a monstrance that way.

Interesting. Are they consecrated together like that?

Relatedly, I know a priest who (wrongly) preferred a glass chalice so the congregation could see the Sacred Blood. At least he used red wine, which should be the color of choice.

Pope Benedict, writing earlier in his careeer as Cardinal Ratzinger, devoted part of his book “Spirit of the Liturgy” to this idea of eating but not “looking at” the Holy Eucharist.

 

[Chiltepin]

I’ve noticed that the less traditional looking parishes always have a special chapel for Adoration where the Tabernacle resides, yet have the worst Masses I’ve ever attended.

Do you think that the rise in Liturgical abuses and church wreckovations has given rise to more hours of Adoration?
…
It seems that the Suburban Catholics care more that they have Adoration more than they care for having a beautiful church that glorifies God and having a proper Liturgy. The proper Liturgy being the most important part, of course.

I think you may be on to something. Still, I think we may not have seen the end of what this is doing. While the faithful may cling to Eucharistic Adoration in the face of what seems a less reverent Mass, the growing numbers in Eucharistic Adoration should have an effect as well. How can you come regularly to Adoration and not grow in respect for the Blessed Sacrament?

My non-traditional parish used to have the tabernacle off to the side in an adjoining side-chapel which opened to the main church. At least we did not have our backs to Him.

We had to rebuild in a big way, due to our growing size. The tabernacle is now behind the altar at the front of the church and on the other side of that wall it is also open to our separate adoration chapel. It is two-sided and pretty neat. I think this change for the better was because of Eucharistic Adoration. A lot of people have no idea why they should go to Eucharistic Adoration and once they do, they find a whole new love of Christ. I think that Eucharistic Adoration can bring us back, out of this non-traditional funk. Still, my parish has a long way to go.

As a suburban Catholic, I cannot agree that we “care more about Adoration than having a proper liturgy.” Decisions like this are ultimately made by Pastors are they not? Certainly, when it comes right down to it, these choices are not in the hands of lay people. It should not be in the hands of lay people, thats sort of what got us into this mess in the first place. Some priests may take more (name removed by moderator)ut than others. Pleas for a Latin Mass are certainly being ignored at my parish.

 

[Volodymyr_988]

I think you may be on to something. Still, I think we may not have seen the end of what this is doing. While the faithful may cling to Eucharistic Adoration in the face of what seems a less reverent Mass, the growing numbers in Eucharistic Adoration should have an effect as well. How can you come regularly to Adoration and not grow in respect for the Blessed Sacrament?

…

As a suburban Catholic, I cannot agree that we “care more about Adoration than having a proper liturgy.” **Decisions like this are ultimately made by Pastors are they not? **Certainly, when it comes right down to it, these choices are not in the hands of lay people. It should not be in the hands of lay people, thats sort of what got us into this mess in the first place. Some priests may take more (name removed by moderator)ut than others. Pleas for a Latin Mass are certainly being ignored at my parish.

This might be the sentence that proves my point. A lazy pastor will take the easy way out and go with the flow by not leading his flock in a more traditional worship. He can add a token Adoration Chapel for the “Traditionalists” so they’ll be happy and he can continue on his Protestantized way.