J
JD27076
Guest
Just a random question. Hopeful for answers.
Thanks
-Justin
Thanks
-Justin
- Status
1
1ke
Guest
I don’t understand the question.
E
Exsilivm
Guest
If it happened, it was probably rare. In ancient times, the Bishop of Ostia consecrated the popes after the public acclaimed them pope. The pope, though, was usually made a presbyter by one of the other bishops in Rome itself. Some laymen and deacons were elevated directly to the papacy, though, and perhaps the Bishop of Ostia ordained a pope both priest and pope over a short interval.
I would check the Oxford Dictionary of Popes for the answer, paying particular attention to popes before 1200.
I would check the Oxford Dictionary of Popes for the answer, paying particular attention to popes before 1200.
P
PrincepsAuguste
Guest
I wasn’t even aware popes were “ordained”.
D
DaveBj
Guest
The question, as stated, is nonsense. Let me reword it, and if I got it wrong, the OP can come back and tell me.
Have any two or more popes been ordained by the same bishop?
Since the word “ordained” was used, and bishops are ordained, but popes are not, the sense of the question as reworded would be:
Were any two [or more] popes ordained as bishops by the same bishop?
If, on the other hand, the OP meant the elevation to the papacy (throwing even more confusion into the question, then the question would be:
Were any two [or more] popes consecrated as popes by the same bishop?
(Speaking for myself, I don’t care what the answer is; I’m just trying to untangle the confusion.)
M
mburn16
Guest
Its possible though, I suspect, unlikely.
If it did happen, it almost certainly happened centuries ago relating to either the Avignon Papacy, or one of the stretches where the throne of St. Peter was occupied by all-Italians.
Like I said, though, I highly doubt it. You would basically need two popes born close to each other, probably from the same city. So either a very short papacy, or an young pope followed by an older one, and once again, probably both from the same city.
If it did happen, it almost certainly happened centuries ago relating to either the Avignon Papacy, or one of the stretches where the throne of St. Peter was occupied by all-Italians.
Like I said, though, I highly doubt it. You would basically need two popes born close to each other, probably from the same city. So either a very short papacy, or an young pope followed by an older one, and once again, probably both from the same city.
J
JimG
Guest
The question is confusing. No one is “ordained” a pope. Pope’s are elected by the conclave, not ordained. The papacy is not conferred through the sacrament of Holy Orders. Those who become pope have already attained the totality of Holy Orders–Deacon, Priest, Bishop.
And if the question relates to who ordained a particular pope as deacon, priest or bishop, of course, that may have been different bishops for each order of Holy Orders.
And if the question relates to who ordained a particular pope as deacon, priest or bishop, of course, that may have been different bishops for each order of Holy Orders.
J
JD27076
Guest
Okay! okay! I am receiving a ton of confusion.
My Revised question is: Has any two or more bishops been consecrated by the same bishop, and those two were elevated to papacy at different times?
My Revised question is: Has any two or more bishops been consecrated by the same bishop, and those two were elevated to papacy at different times?
C
Cristiano
Guest
D
DaveBj
Guest
According to what I coincidentally was just reading today, the correct question would be, “Have any two or more bishops been consecrated by the same three bishops, and those two were elevated to papacy at different times?”Did you expect to get a straight answer here on CAF?
In those days (don’t know about today) it took three bishops to ordain a new bishop.
C
Cristiano
Guest
Are you trying to make my point?
The question refers to only one bishop, why the correct question should be the same three bishops? You can have bishops A,B, and C at the first ordination and bishops C, D and E at the second one. That satisfies the original question even if it does not satisfy your question.
BTW Even in the last decades the pope has allowed the ordination of a new bishop to be celebrated by only one bishop when it was too dangerous to get four people in the same place at the same time (e.g. communist countries).
P
PrincepsAuguste
Guest
I am pretty sure it happened before. After all, to my understanding, a great number of popes came from Italy, so it seems likely that at least two popes were ordained as a bishop by the same bishop.
However, keep in mind that in the days of yore the pope wasn’t necessarily a bishop. There were several cases where popes were elevated from priests, deacons, or even laypeople.
W
Windmill
Guest
J
johnnykins
Guest
Henry Benedict Mary Clement Cardinal Stuart of York
Principal Consecrator of
Pope Annibale Francesco Clemente Melchiore Girolamo Nicola della Genga †Leo XII
Co-Consecrator of
• Pope Lorenzo (Giovanni Vincenzo Antonio) Ganganelli, O.F.M. Conv. † Clement XIV
• Pope Giovanni Angelico Braschi †Pius VI
There must be others - and I’m not checking out priestly ordinations…
Principal Consecrator of
Pope Annibale Francesco Clemente Melchiore Girolamo Nicola della Genga †Leo XII
Co-Consecrator of
• Pope Lorenzo (Giovanni Vincenzo Antonio) Ganganelli, O.F.M. Conv. † Clement XIV
• Pope Giovanni Angelico Braschi †Pius VI
There must be others - and I’m not checking out priestly ordinations…
J
johnnykins
Guest
Here’s a sidebar to keep you busy and derail this thread:
There is at least one parish (non-cathedral) in the USA which has had 2 pastors named cardinal. Name it. (If there is more than 1 and the other(s) is(are) named, I will let you know the one I’m thinking of.) NOTE they were named Cardinal later - not while pastor of the non-cathedral parish
There is at least one parish (non-cathedral) in the USA which has had 2 pastors named cardinal. Name it. (If there is more than 1 and the other(s) is(are) named, I will let you know the one I’m thinking of.) NOTE they were named Cardinal later - not while pastor of the non-cathedral parish
Y
yellowantphil
Guest
If nobody knows, are you going to tell us? I have no idea.
J
johnnykins
Guest
Sacred Heart, Newton Centre, MAIf nobody knows, are you going to tell us? I have no idea.
1932-1939 Francis Spellman as Auxiliary Bishop of Boston was Pastor
1939-1944 Richard Cushing as Auxiliary Bishop of Boston was Pastor
K
Kielbasi
Guest
I’m sure its happened several times. The average reign of a pope is just 8 years, and most of them came from a rather narrow geographic slice of the Catholic world in Italy. John Paul II was the first non-Italian pope in almost 5 centuries when he was elected in 1978.
A
AJV
Guest
No, he would be right with the one bishop, at least for the greater part of the history of the Roman rite. There were 3 bishops vested present at the ordination as ancient custom required.
However, until Pius XII, according to the majority of the scholastic theologians and their descendants, among those who argued that ordination to the episcopate was sacramental, most held that the other two bishops were not co-consecrators in the proper sense, but only in a ceremonial sense.
This was because until Pius XII, the other two bishops did not pray the ordination prayer over the bishop to be ordained, or participate in any of the other rites which (prior to the definition of the sacramental form by Pius XII) some theologians held to constitute the “form” of the sacrament.
- Status