Has anyone changed there mind here?

[James0235]

Thanks James, I will go with the Baltimore Catechism on this one

The Baltimore Catechism does not have the authority of the CCC or the Catechism of the Council of Trent. But, the Baltimore Catechism seems to me to take its teaching on the remission of venial sin from St. Thomas Aquinas in the Summa.

newadvent.org/summa/4087.htm#3

James

 

[AJV]

But **the prayer **in the TLM gives absolution if one is contrite.
In the OF the Penitential Rite is optional. My parish priest only says the Penitential RIte, optional A, during Lent. The rest of the years he skips it and uses option B or C.

Sorry, stmaria, I’m a bit confused as to the point you’re trying to make.

This is how I understood it, please correct me if I am wrong. Your contention was that the prayer “Indulgentiam” having been removed, there is no absolution prayer for venial sins in the OF.

My contention was that-
The prayer “Misereatur” is also an absolution. This can be proved from the EF missal itself where the words “facit absolutionem” occur before the Misereatur and not the Indulgentiam.

The Misereatur, like the Indulgentiam, is deprecatory, and requests forgiveness of sins. I admit that the Indulgentiam is more strongly worded. It expands “forgive” to pardon, absolve, and remit. But strictly speaking, because of there deprecatory nature, they are on equal footing. Both request the forgiveness of sin.

The GIRM refers to the Misereatur as an absolution (which lacks the efficacy of Penance i.e. a sacramental rather than sacrament)

The Misereatur is required after ALL forms - A, B, or C. Even the Asperges has a comparable prayer

Deus omnipotens, nos a peccatis purificet, et per huius Eucharistiae celebrationem dignos nos reddat, qui mensae regni sui participes efficiamur.

May almighty God cleanse us of our sins, and through the Eucharist we celebrate make us worthy to sit at his table in his heavenly kingdom.

 

[Ghoti]

I have been doing so much weeping over this **** thread that I am about to short out my keyboard. And this is my fourth or so draft of this post. The last few would not only have gotten me banned, but possibly in a state of mortal sin as well (if my anger hasn’t put me there already).

I am sick to death. Sick, sick, sick.

I am sick and tired of all the Catholic-bashing, going from other Catholics.

You don’t think we have enough attacks from the outside, without the baiting, insults and contempt within? I’m so bloody SICK of the supercilious, smug CONDESCENSION.

I go to a Novus Ordo/Ordinary Form/Vatican II whateveryoucallit Church. I have seen nothing but reverence from the parishioners that go, nor have I seen any irregularities or abuses that I can name; everything I see and do is in my Missal, and everything I sing is there or in my Catholic Book of Worship, approved by the CCCB.

So there you go. Judge me. I know you want to. Obviously I’m some sick liberal whose hell-bent (literally) to try and call Jesus on His “gates of hell” promise, right?

I was born after Vatican II and I was raised in the VII era. I never went to a Latin Mass because there weren’t any where I was.

My Mass is not wrong. My Mass is not invalid. My Mass is not deficient, defective, inferior, or whatever. Because Jesus is there. I can feel Him, I *know *He’s there.

There may be abuses or irregularities. That needs to be policed in the strongest, quickest, strictest possible way.

But if the Mass is being done correctly, then it is valid – and Jesus is there. And I know He is there, because I have seen Him.

So STOP ALREADY WITH THE INSULTS!!! You got your choice of names between Pre-Vatican II vs Post-Vatican II, TLM vs NO, EF vs OF…there’s no need to be with the “happy clappy” and the “clown mass” and the “kumbaya”. And when you insult the Ordinary Form in general, rather than just abuses which may occur, AFAIAC you are applying the same to the Lord who has deigned to make an appearance there: you are being, on this forum at least, at best patronizing, at worst outright contemptuous.

Perhaps you think that Mass is invalis…will you by your words trod on the Blessed Sacrament as has been ascribed to Photios’ chaplain? Is my Mass “the Eucharist of the Franks”?

I have (had) been thinking about going to a Latin Mass, but not because of these fora. As a matter of fact, the condescension on these fora is enough to make me not only not go to a TLM, but make a dive for the border to the Ukrainian parish down on Broadview. Or if the poisonous atmosphere on these fora is indicative of Catholicism in general, well, maybe I should abandon these poisonous fruits altogether.

I know Jesus Christ promised He would be with us till the end of time, and that the gates of Hell would not prevail….so I know that the Church will survive all this “smells and bells” vs “happy clappy” ****.

I just pray to God that I can.

 

[stmaria]

Sorry, stmaria, I’m a bit confused as to the point you’re trying o make.

This is how I understood it, please correct me if I am wrong. Your contention was that the prayer “Indulgentiam” having been removed, there is no absolution prayer for venial sins in the OF.

My contention is that-
The prayer “Misereatur” is also an absolution. This can be proved from the EF missal itself where the words “facit absolutionem” occur before the Misereatur and not the Indulgentiam.

The Misereatur, like the Indulgentiam, is deprecatory, and requests forgiveness of sins. I admit that the Indulgentiam is more strongly worded. It expands “forgive” to “pardon, absolve, and remit”.

But strictly speaking, because of there deprecatory nature, they are on equal footing. Both request the forgiveness of sin.

I disagree. They are not on equal footing. In the TLM the priest, while making the sign of the cross says, “Indulgentiam, **absolutionem **et remissionem peccatorium nostrorum tribuat nobis omnipotens et misericors Dominus”

The priest in the OF does not use the word “absolve” and he does not make the sign of the cross.

 

[Cat]

I have been doing so much weeping over this **** thread that I am about to short out my keyboard. And this is my fourth or so draft of this post. The last few would not only have gotten me banned, but possibly in a state of mortal sin as well (if my anger hasn’t put me there already).

I am sick to death. Sick, sick, sick.

I am sick and tired of all the Catholic-bashing, going from other Catholics.

You don’t think we have enough attacks from the outside, without the baiting, insults and contempt within? I’m so bloody SICK of the supercilious, smug CONDESCENSION.

I go to a Novus Ordo/Ordinary Form/Vatican II whateveryoucallit Church. I have seen nothing but reverence from the parishioners that go, nor have I seen any irregularities or abuses that I can name; everything I see and do is in my Missal, and everything I sing is there or in my Catholic Book of Worship, approved by the CCCB.

So there you go. Judge me. I know you want to. Obviously I’m some sick liberal whose hell-bent (literally) to try and call Jesus on His “gates of hell” promise, right?

I was born after Vatican II and I was raised in the VII era. I never went to a Latin Mass because there weren’t any where I was.

My Mass is not wrong. My Mass is not invalid. My Mass is not deficient, defective, inferior, or whatever. Because Jesus is there. I can feel Him, I *know *He’s there.

There may be abuses or irregularities. That needs to be policed in the strongest, quickest, strictest possible way.

But if the Mass is being done correctly, then it is valid – and Jesus is there. And I know He is there, because I have seen Him.

So STOP ALREADY WITH THE INSULTS!!! You got your choice of names between Pre-Vatican II vs Post-Vatican II, TLM vs NO, EF vs OF…there’s no need to be with the “happy clappy” and the “clown mass” and the “kumbaya”. And when you insult the Ordinary Form in general, rather than just abuses which may occur, AFAIAC you are applying the same to the Lord who has deigned to make an appearance there: you are being, on this forum at least, at best patronizing, at worst outright contemptuous.

Perhaps you think that Mass is invalis…will you by your words trod on the Blessed Sacrament as has been ascribed to Photios’ chaplain? Is my Mass “the Eucharist of the Franks”?

I have (had) been thinking about going to a Latin Mass, but not because of these fora. As a matter of fact, the condescension on these fora is enough to make me not only not go to a TLM, but make a dive for the border to the Ukrainian parish down on Broadview. Or if the poisonous atmosphere on these fora is indicative of Catholicism in general, well, maybe I should abandon these poisonous fruits altogether.

I know Jesus Christ promised He would be with us till the end of time, and that the gates of Hell would not prevail….so I know that the Church will survive all this “smells and bells” vs “happy clappy” ****.

I just pray to God that I can.

This describes the way I feel . I feel like a child being picked on by a bully, and I keep swatting at the bully and crying and shouting, “Go away and leave me alone!”

That’s probably the main reason I have no interest in a Latin Mass. I am afraid that the people I meet there will be like some of the bullies here.

And now I learn that the people who attend TLM are more “forgiven” than the poor schmoes like me who are attending that deficient “NO.” And since that’s NOT what I was taught in R.C.I.A. by the priests and lay-teachers, then that means that my priests and lay-teachers were all liars or ignoramuses, which makes me wonder if they got ANYTHING right and if I am really being a good Catholic or if I am totally deceived into just thinking I’m a good Catholic, and the only way I will really be a good Catholic is to get out of my deficient Mass and go to the TLM downtown…

You nailed it, Ghoti. You expressed my feelings exactly.

 

[AJV]

I disagree. They are not on equal footing. In the TLM the priest, while making the sign of the cross says, “Indulgentiam, **absolutionem **et remissionem peccatorium nostrorum tribuat nobis omnipotens et misericors Dominus”

The priest in the OF does not use the word “absolve” and he does not make the sign of the cross.

He does not have to make the sign of the cross, nor does he have to use the word “absolve”. “Forgive” is sufficient. It is, anyway, practically synonymous with “absolve” though a fine distinction could be drawn. The sacramental is the prayer. The cross is a further sacramental.

 

[AJV]

I disagree. They are not on equal footing. In the TLM the priest, while making the sign of the cross says, “Indulgentiam, **absolutionem **et remissionem peccatorium nostrorum tribuat nobis omnipotens et misericors Dominus”

The priest in the OF does not use the word “absolve” and he does not make the sign of the cross.

He does not have to make the sign of the cross, nor does he have to use the word “absolve”. “Forgive” is sufficient. It is, anyway, practically synonymous with “absolve” though a fine distinction could be drawn. The sacramental is the prayer. The cross is a further sacramental.

As further proof of the equivalence, see St. Thomas in the Summa (III, LXXXIV, iii ad i)

Such absolutions as are given in public are not sacramental, but are prayers for the remission of venial sins. Wherefore in giving sacramental absolution it would not suffice to say: “May Almighty God have mercy on thee,” or: “May God grant thee absolution and forgiveness,” because by such words the priest does not signify the giving of absolution, but prays that it may be given.

I would explain the equivalence of the two by drawing a further analogy. A king could say “If you disobey my commands in this decree you are toast”. He could also say “If you ignore my dictates, command, enactment, imposition, injunction, mandate precept, order, warrant and will contained herein, you are toast”. One is certainly more effective and striking than the other. It may even make the person more prompt in obeying. But in the end, it comes down to the fact, that simple or impressive language, you are toast if you disobey. Likewise for the absolution formulae - “Indulgentiam” because of its words, *may *evoke a greater feeling of contrition in the hearer- but otherwise, it is on the same footing as Misereatur in pleading for the forgiveness of God.

 

[elt1956]

Absolution of venial sins, if you are contrite, is only available in the Traditional Mass. This absolution has been removed in the OF. This doesn’t mean that you can ignore confession. Penance is a sacrament and from it you will receive grace.

Question, Question!! Are you saying that by attending a Traditional Mass, no confession, venial sins can be forgiven if one is contrite? Wow, have things changed since I was a kid, or I just never heard of it. Thanks. Peace.

 

[Eilish_Maura]

I disagree. They are not on equal footing. In the TLM the priest, while making the sign of the cross says, “Indulgentiam, **absolutionem **et remissionem peccatorium nostrorum tribuat nobis omnipotens et misericors Dominus”

The priest in the OF does not use the word “absolve” and he does not make the sign of the cross.

Do you have official documentation that shows the church holds they are not on equal footing and the penitential rite used in the OF does not do anything re forgiving venial sins?

 

[Brother_John]

I am sick to death. Sick, sick, sick.

I am sick and tired of all the Catholic-bashing, going from other Catholics.

You don’t think we have enough attacks from the outside, without the baiting, insults and contempt within? I’m so bloody SICK of the supercilious, smug CONDESCENSION.

My Mass is not wrong. My Mass is not invalid. My Mass is not deficient, defective, inferior, or whatever. Because Jesus is there. I can feel Him, I *know *He’s there.

There may be abuses or irregularities. That needs to be policed in the strongest, quickest, strictest possible way.

But if the Mass is being done correctly, then it is valid – and Jesus is there. And I know He is there, because I have seen Him.

And when you insult the Ordinary Form in general, rather than just abuses which may occur, AFAIAC you are applying the same to the Lord who has deigned to make an appearance there: you are being, on this forum at least, at best patronizing, at worst outright contemptuous.

Perhaps you think that Mass is invalis…will you by your words trod on the Blessed Sacrament as has been ascribed to Photios’ chaplain? Is my Mass “the Eucharist of the Franks”?

Or if the poisonous atmosphere on these fora is indicative of Catholicism in general, well, maybe I should abandon these poisonous fruits altogether.

so I know that the Church will survive all this “smells and bells” vs “happy clappy” ****.

I just pray to God that I can.

Amen, Amen, Amen

:clapping: :tiphat: :bowdown: :bowdown2:

 

[Brother_John]

This describes the way I feel . I feel like a child being picked on by a bully, and I keep swatting at the bully and crying and shouting, “Go away and leave me alone!”

That’s probably the main reason I have no interest in a Latin Mass. I am afraid that the people I meet there will be like some of the bullies here.

And now I learn that the people who attend TLM are more “forgiven” than the poor schmoes like me who are attending that deficient “NO.” And since that’s NOT what I was taught in R.C.I.A. by the priests and lay-teachers, then that means that my priests and lay-teachers were all liars or ignoramuses, which makes me wonder if they got ANYTHING right and if I am really being a good Catholic or if I am totally deceived into just thinking I’m a good Catholic, and the only way I will really be a good Catholic is to get out of my deficient Mass and go to the TLM downtown…

You nailed it, Ghoti. You expressed my feelings exactly.

Cat, you rock

 

[Indyann]

Question, Question!! Are you saying that by attending a Traditional Mass, no confession, venial sins can be forgiven if one is contrite? Wow, have things changed since I was a kid, or I just never heard of it. Thanks. Peace.

Well, guess what? Same is true in the N. O.

ewtn.com/library/liturgy/zlitur88.htm

 

[elt1956]

Yes it is. It has always been true. I e-mailed my FSSP priest and he verified it.
,

Here is the prayer of absolution in the Traditional Mass.
“May almighty God have mercy on you, forgive you your sins, and bring you to life everlasting. [Amen] May the Almighty and merciful Lord grant us pardon, absolution [he blesses the people with the sign of the cross], and remission of our sins.” TLM Absolution

Ordinary form
“May almighty God have mercy on us, forgive us our sins, and bring us to everlasting life.” Ordinary Form
From the GIRM

The Act of Penitence

1. Then the priest invites those present to take part in the Act of Penitence, which, after a brief pause for silence, the entire community carries out through a formula of general confession. The rite concludes with the priest’s absolution, which, however, **lacks the efficacy **of the Sacrament of Penance."

It is true that the prayer of absolution that is in the EF is not in the OF. But, that does not mean that there is no absolution of venial sins in the OF.

In the EF, after the Confiteor (“I confess to…”), the priest prayed this:

May almighty God have mercy upon you, forgive you your sins, and bring you to life everlasting. Amen.

and then there was a second prayer:

May the almighty and merciful Lord grant us pardon, absolution, and remission of out sins.

In the OF this has been changed to:
**
May almighty God have mercy on us, forgive us our sins, and bring us to everlasting life. Amen.**

For whatever reason Bugnini removed the 2nd prayer (the prayer of absolution) from the 1970 Roman Missal. But, as already pointed out, holy water removes venial sin. And receiving the Eucharist removes it as well. So, I do not think it is correct to say that the absolution of venial sins doesn’t occur in the OF. But, I do believe it is true that there is nor a specific prayer for absolution.

James

Man oh Man my Grade and High School teachers, nuns, are turning over in their graves. I have never heard of any sin being forgiven outside of confession, or on a deathbed. Of course I graduated from High School in 1956, so maybe I have a bit of a gap someplace. Wow, have things changed!!! Peace.

 

[ac_claire]

Man oh Man my Grade and High School teachers, nuns, are turning over in their graves. I have never heard of any sin being forgiven outside of confession, or on a deathbed. Of course I graduated from High School in 1956, so maybe I have a bit of a gap someplace. Wow, have things changed!!! Peace.

hey elt,
After looking it up in the Catechism, which does affirm the forgiveness-of-sins-aspect of the mass, but then qualifies it with this:

1395 The Eucharist is not ordered to the forgiveness of mortal sins - that is proper to the sacrament of Reconciliation. The Eucharist is properly the sacrament of those who are in full communion with the Church.

My guess is that this aspect of the mass isn’t emphasized sometimes because people get confused and think that the Eucharist can just take the place of confession. I knew about it, but I have never thought too deeply about it, and no priest or teacher brought it up. So no, it’s not just you and you haven’t been living under a rock!

The Eastern churches emphasize this aspect of the Eucharist a lot more.

 

[Eilish_Maura]

Man oh Man my Grade and High School teachers, nuns, are turning over in their graves. I have never heard of any sin being forgiven outside of confession, or on a deathbed. Of course I graduated from High School in 1956, so maybe I have a bit of a gap someplace. Wow, have things changed!!! Peace.

Or you were just that bit more wicked that venial sins were not a problem.

 

[ProVobis]

Could someone please show me where in the Cateschism it states that holy water and the Eucharist forgives venial sins., if one is contrite of course. I would like to have that reference handy. Thanks

That’s what I heard too and questioned it. St. Paul says that we have to be most worthy to receive communion. Yet they’re saying that Communion absolves venial sin. But what if it’s borderline? Then you risk further damning your soul.

 

[Your_Abbott]

If you read more and wrote less, you would see that I have. In fact, I was the first to post that I had changed in some ways and specified how. Fortunately, you are in not position to tell others what they can or can not do.

Well, that certainly includes you not being in a position to tell me what to do or not to do. What’s good for the goose is good for the gander.

 

[Your_Abbott]

That’s what I heard too and questioned it. St. Paul says that we have to be most worthy to receive communion. Yet they’re saying that Communion absolves venial sin. But what if it’s borderline? Then you risk further damning your soul.

Sins are not borderline. Either they are, or they are not, serious

 

[dyspepsic]

I believe Traditional Catholic worship and doctrine are how God wants us to worship. I see great debate here on many topics, now it seems that some topics are to tough to arbitrate and we need to keep our debates to mantillas and why the Church does not eat meat of Fridays year round. If we can’t debate the challenging topics, is this of any use? It seems that there are staunch positions here held by the same people that never change. Has anyone come to love the TLM and or turned from happy clappy parishes because of this Traditional Forum?

No, but that is the point. You are named after ‘latin mass’. It is a thing of the past, which does not communicate to the average Catholic of today. That is why the Church changed it, and offered us the same Sacrifice in our own language, so we know what the readings are, what are the prayers, and collects, and the various psalms read for the Introit, and Gradual, Offertory and Communion prayer. More importantly, the beautiful Canon is there for us to understand, to communicate, to pray, to participate. “Participate” - that is what the word was to the average Catholic back in the 60’s. The Mass of Participation.

Too long did the Catholic faithful have to be directed by 8 year old altar boys what to do, when to stand, when to kneel or sit, when to strike our breasts, when to adore, when to receive the Eucharist. We have sacrificed so much for the intelligible. We saw our Mass in history destroyed by the Reformers because it was in the language of priests, latin - not the language of angels. Nor the language of the people.

So, you won’t change my mind here. Convince, however, the hundreds of elderly priests, whom you would think, with the option available, that they would want to say the Mass in latin even for sentimental reasons. But no. They aren’t lining up to volunteer to say the Latin Mass, even when it is optional for themselves.

Convince them, then you’ve convinced me. If they do not see its value, how can I?

 

[elt1956]

hey elt,
After looking it up in the Catechism, which does affirm the forgiveness-of-sins-aspect of the mass, but then qualifies it with this:

My guess is that this aspect of the mass isn’t emphasized sometimes because people get confused and think that the Eucharist can just take the place of confession. I knew about it, but I have never thought too deeply about it, and no priest or teacher brought it up. So no, it’s not just you and you haven’t been living under a rock!

The Eastern churches emphasize this aspect of the Eucharist a lot more.

Whew ac claire. What a relief!! I really was afraid I had missed several decades of teachings of the Catholic Church. So many things have changed. Many Thanks. Peace.