Has anyone changed there mind here?

[latinmass]

I believe Traditional Catholic worship and doctrine are how God wants us to worship. I see great debate here on many topics, now it seems that some topics are to tough to arbitrate and we need to keep our debates to mantillas and why the Church does not eat meat of Fridays year round. If we can’t debate the challenging topics, is this of any use? It seems that there are staunch positions here held by the same people that never change. Has anyone come to love the TLM and or turned from happy clappy parishes because of this Traditional Forum?

 

[SuscipeMeDomine]

Has anyone come to love the TLM and or turned from happy clappy parishes because of this Traditional Forum?

I sincerely doubt it. Especially when you tell the people you want to attract that they’re in “happy clappy” parishes. Respect for other people helps a lot.

 

[latinmass]

I sincerely doubt it. Especially when you tell the people you want to attract that they’re in “happy clappy” parishes. Respect for other people helps a lot.

Which speaks to my statement. Past tense, people who left liberal parishes from the dialogue here. It’s common sense and doctrine that bring people, not terms such as “happy clappy” they need to understand why happy clappy is illicit, which these dialogues do. But many just read with there own mindset like this person. Again, has anyone through these dialogues come to know that the EF and all Church doctrine is as it always has been since the Church fathers?

 

[beckers]

I sincerely doubt it. Especially when you tell the people you want to attract that they’re in “happy clappy” parishes. Respect for other people helps a lot.

I agree with SuscipeMeDomine.

Why would I want to talk to someone who thinks so negatively about any mass that I attend? I enjoy all styles of mass be it Latin mass, NO or the Anglican Use Mass. You can debate the styles all you want. But as my father told me “Jesus came to establish a Church not a Mass”. The truth is I go to mass not because of the style of mass but because my lord and savior has sacrificed himself for me and I am going to receive him into my body and soul. That’s what matters to me. Not your opinion of whither it’s the most correct or pure form of mass.

 

[Nechasin]

I think both forms are appropriate and reverent when done right and the people are in the right frame of mind. Too many traditional catholics profess a holier than thou attitude that turns people away from the traditional methods or worship. I think we need to bring more reverence to all forms of worship regardless if it is the EF or OF. As more people learn reverence, then our unity can grow and become stronger. Using insults and naming calling does not help. Showing respect for each other as God’s Children and working with the Magistrium to make all forms of worship reverent is what is needed. So instead of driving past many parishes to to a Mass that I enjoy, I will continue to work from within my territorial parish as an example and to make things more reverent.

 

[ASimpleSinner]

I sincerely doubt it. Especially when you tell the people you want to attract that they’re in “happy clappy” parishes. Respect for other people helps a lot.

DITTO.

In my limited experience, negatively telling people how bad where they worship (or that they don’t worship at all!) is not terribly effective. I haven’t met anyone who, when told “That is pretty much a clown mass and that parish you go to is happy clappy, hippy dippy!” respond “Gee, you are right! Lead me to tradition!”

From there some especially righteous folks will give some platitudes about “It is a mercy to tell the truth to those hippies!”

Well, sure. But unless you have the sanctity of Saint Boniface to take an ax to the “sacred tree” the pagans you are about to convert are worshipping… Well chances are that especially triumphal approach (even if your message is true) is going to only (sinfully!) fuel pride while also REALLY turning people off who MIGHT be receptive to gentle, persuasive positive arguments or even just an invitation:

“I know you are very active in your parish, would you like to come to mine some sunday and see how we do things?”

I have also learned that the average Catholic convert goes through 40-50 invitations to join or investigate the Catholic faith. If I invite someone to it, and they are non responsive, I take that as a sign that I am maybe “invitor #27”, that they are not ready, that I did my part, and I need to move on to a soul that is responsive.

I do NOT take that as an invitation to argue with them, and possibly make them more recalcitrant in their anti-Catholic or anti-tradition feelings because they associate Catholocism or traditionalism with “That rude jerk, ASimpleSinner!”

How did the saying go? Flies, honey, vinegar…

 

[Sure]

The biggest issue that I see in terms of “converting” people to more traditional liturgy is the attitude that the ordinary form is, in and of itself, seriously deficient, if not invalid. Even the traditionalist posters who quietly acknowledge that it is valid, will not defend it in any way. On the flipside there are those “orthodox” Catholics who think the return of the extraordinary form is good and wonderful, but also hold that the ordinary form is good and wonderful, as well. In the traditionalists eye’s that makes me a liberal who prefers “happy-clappy” Masses.

If traditionalists ever want the extraordinary form to become common, they should start by approaching Catholics with common sense. They should acknowledge the beauty that can be found within the ordinary form. This should not be an either/or proposition, but rather, as the Holy Father desires, a both/and proposition.

Traditionalists need to realize that often their behavior and attitude usually only confirm the wide perception that “traditional latin Mass=schism or close to it”.

Personally, I am a good Catholic and think the extraordinary form is a really really good thing for the Church. BUT, I find the extraordinary form okay but not any more awe-inspiring or wonderful than the well done ordinary form that I attend. Now, rather than understanding and accepting that, most traditionalists will label me “stupid” or “liberal” or “heterodox” even though I DO NOT do the same to them.

Also, I will say that the number of traditionalists on here who defend Archbishop Lefevbre makes me think that there are a considerable number of traditionalists who are not very intelligent.

 

[water]

I believe Traditional Catholic worship and doctrine are how God wants us to worship. I see great debate here on many topics, now it seems that some topics are to tough to arbitrate and we need to keep our debates to mantillas and why the Church does not eat meat of Fridays year round. If we can’t debate the challenging topics, is this of any use? It seems that there are staunch positions here held by the same people that never change. Has anyone come to love the TLM and or turned from happy clappy parishes because of this Traditional Forum?

The TLM is beautiful but the attitude of some of the “traditional” guys is not.

 

[Indyann]

The TLM is beautiful but the attitude of some of the “traditional” guys is not.

Ditto and double dittto! These people are doing way more harm to the promulgation of the TLM than they are doing good.

 

[latinmass]

It seems that my question is answered. Nobody ever has come to be a Traditional Catholic as a result of the Traditional Forum. What a sad waste of time. To all the Traditional Catholics, we need to spend more time in the street, and less time on the computer.

 

[water]

It seems that my question is answered. **Nobody ever has come to be a Traditional Catholic as a result of the Traditional Forum. ** What a sad waste of time. To all the Traditional Catholics, we need to spend more time in the street, and less time on the computer.

It could be true about your statement; therefore, look at what Traditional people have said in this Traditional Forum and see if they could’ve said some other ways that can convince people to attend TLM.

 

[piouswoman]

Also, I will say that the number of traditionalists on here who defend Archbishop Lefevbre makes me think that there are a considerable number of traditionalists who are not very intelligent.

That is not a very intelligent statement. In fact, it is meant to antagonize, belittle, insult, besmirch and discourage those who hold fast to tradition. And all of this on a “Catholic” website? I notice that the conciliar church and its members have the least patience and charity towards Traditionalists, yet they just love to promote the error of ecumenism.

 

[marymonde]

It seems that my question is answered. Nobody ever has come to be a Traditional Catholic as a result of the Traditional Forum. What a sad waste of time. To all the Traditional Catholics, we need to spend more time in the street, and less time on the computer.

I believe that it will take a Holy Father who solely offers the TLM, and makes no use of the Novus Ordo, for the rest of the faithful to follow, not a Traditional forum. Peter will be the one who has show us and lead us. As long as the pope is still offering a Novus ordo mass, most Catholics will stay where they are in their parishes.

I do believe that there are people who lurk and will investigate the Roman Rite here. I was in a Novus Ordo parish for years, and the priest was good and offered his mass with great reverence, but, I knew that protestants were reverent too. Reverence really wasn’t the issue, it’s definition is just a feeling or attitude of deep respect. I was looking for perfection to give to God. One day my youngest son, who was about 10 at the time, asked me why the priest bragged about the work of human hands in one of the offertory prayers. He looked at me and said, “God doesn’t need our hands”. He didn’t mean disrespect to the priest at all, he just didn’t comprehend the prayer Father was saying. What he observed DID make me think. For myself and my family, I knew there had to be something else. So I prayed a novena to the Holy Ghost to show me what to do and where to go for Mass. Shortly afterwards I met a woman at a homeschooling conference and she told me about the Latin Mass. Our family went and never really looked back.

Please, I am not trying to put my nose up in the air and put anyone down here who does attend the Novus Ordo, or is it ordinary form now? I get confused. I am just sharing what happened within my particular family. And, fwiw, I think that it takes more than a few Tridentine masses to go to before you can start actually concentrating on the prayers and noticing the difference. It can be a bit difficult to absorb, but once you do, it becomes second nature. But as I started my rambling post, we will have to be lead by the Holy Father himself. I don’t know of a better example.

 

[Lhhs]

If we can’t debate the challenging topics, is this of any use

I dont’ come to debate.
Maybe there is no use. . . but I come and read some notes anyway

 

[stmaria]

It seems that my question is answered. Nobody ever has come to be a Traditional Catholic as a result of the Traditional Forum. What a sad waste of time. To all the Traditional Catholics, we need to spend more time in the street, and less time on the computer.

I think many have become interested in the TLM because of this forum. New posters come on to the forum every day. Some of the have never heard of the TLM. After all it has been hidden by the diocese for decades. It is not written about in the local Catholic newspapers, not advertized in the Church bulletins. It is usually hidden away in out of the way chapels.Most do not have access to the Traditional Mass. But a seed has been planted.
Many of the 75,000 on this forum are not Catholic. Not all of the ones that are post questions. Some just read the discussion. So it is not a waste of time.
There are millions of Catholics in the U.S. and millions on the internet. It is a shame that more are not on this site.
Give it time. The traditional site is great. So far it allows different opinions. No need to fear.
I am encouraged by the questions on the Liturgy and Sacraments forum. The abuses are openly discussed. Catholics are more aware of the problems in the Church unlike in the 60’s-70’s when most were not well informed.

 

[Sure]

That is not a very intelligent statement. In fact, it is meant to antagonize, belittle, insult, besmirch and discourage those who hold fast to tradition. And all of this on a “Catholic” website? I notice that the conciliar church and its members have the least patience and charity towards Traditionalists, yet they just love to promote the error of ecumenism.

Sorry you feel that way. I didn’t mean to antagonize and I apologize if it seemed that way. My point was simply that it takes a massive ignoring of Church documents and canon law to view Lefevbre’s action as good.

I prefer the ordinary form. You prefer the extraordinary form. I think the extraordinary form is also great, I just don’t prefer it. You think the ordinary form is bad or deficient. Why do feel the need to tear down the legitimate liturgy that I prefer? I don’t do the same to you? Why not extend the same courtesy???

A couple of quick notes:

What on earth is a “conciliar church”? I am not a member of such a church.

Why are you bringing up ecumenism?

 

[ac_claire]

I don’t hold hands during the Our Father anymore, does that count?

 

[bookish]

Yes, me! I’ve never been to a TLM yet, but I found one offered near me and I plan on attending as soon as possible. Some of the websites and things posted here about it really interested me. After reading links and cases for the TLM from here, I went to my parish for an NO mass and I felt like I was definitely missing out on something. Now I can’t wait to go to a Latin Mass, and I am so thankful for this particular part of the CA forums!

 

[lovesMary]

I don’t hold hands during the Our Father anymore, does that count?

Baby steps, baby steps!!!

 

[brigid12]

Since I’m on the Left Coast there are very few TLMs offered. I would be surprised if there were many now here soon. That said, I have seen CDs of it now and gotten one of those Ecclesia Dei missal pamphlets (and read it). I’ve finally gotten up the nerve through posts here and through the prayer it occasioned, to start headcovering (even amidst very odd looks - St.Francis De Sales said that if you knew something was right to not pay attention to what others say or might think). I’ve started attending and really enjoying another fairly orthodox parish, including getting to adore the Blessed Sacrament. From spending time on this forum I’ve also learned quite a bit about previous church history/documents. This forum certainly isn’t a waste - catechesis has to come before much change with humans.