Has anyone changed there mind here?

[Cat]

GerardP, I realize that the thread is getting bigger and that there are a lot of discussion points happening. I don’t mean to nag at you.

But I would greatly appreciate it if you have a little extra time, could you answer my questions about your quote:

“The fact that the Churchmen have “permitted” something doesn’t mean the Church “approves” of it.”

GerardP, who are the “Churchmen” that you are referring to in this quote? Are these the laymen? (I need a clarification of terms–perhaps we are using two different terms but mean the same thing.)

GerardP, are you saying that the Catholic Church does not approve of the NO Mass?

Thank you.

Cat

 

[GerardP]

GerardP, I realize that the thread is getting bigger and that there are a lot of discussion points happening. I don’t mean to nag at you.

Quite alright. Sorry for not getting back to you earlier. Time is tight today.

But I would greatly appreciate it if you have a little extra time, could you answer my questions about your quote:

“The fact that the Churchmen have “permitted” something doesn’t mean the Church “approves” of it.”

GerardP, who are the “Churchmen” that you are referring to in this quote? Are these the laymen? (I need a clarification of terms–perhaps we are using two different terms but mean the same thing.)

Churchmen are clerics. Bishops, priests etc. Churchmen make decisions that are not by their nature decisions of “the Church” in the way that a Council will define something.

How an individual bishop determines what “norms” are for the mass may very well be at odds with what the Council Fathers intended.

“The Church” is the mystical body of Christ that has no spot nor wrinkle." Churchmen may have been anti-semitic or corrupt in the past regarding the sale of indulgences, but the Church herself has no corruption.

GerardP, are you saying that the Catholic Church does not approve of the NO Mass?

Thank you.

Cat

The Novus Ordo mass is so “flexible/unstable” that I don’t think “the Church” can actually approve of it in the sense that the books are not specific enough and the bishops individually have so much power over the liturgy that “norms” no longer mean much.

Even Pope Benedict has had problems with it, the variety of styles that he’s had to offer the Mass is mind-bending. His replacement of archbishop Marini is a step in the right direction though.

 

[ac_claire]

I’m not being sarcastic. I seriously think your comment indicates that you have a twisted perception of reality and that you know very little of what the Popes have historically taught about the Church’s enemies.

Straw man. Brother John’s (admittedly sarcastic) comment was specifically in response to this:

you:

The point of it is distraction. The Novus Ordo was designed with subtle and not so subtle distractions.

…I’m just sayin’.

 

[Cat]

Quite alright. Sorry for not getting back to you earlier. Time is tight today.

Churchmen are clerics. Bishops, priests etc. Churchmen make decisions that are not by their nature decisions of “the Church” in the way that a Council will define something.

How an individual bishop determines what “norms” are for the mass may very well be at odds with what the Council Fathers intended.

“The Church” is the mystical body of Christ that has no spot nor wrinkle." Churchmen may have been anti-semitic or corrupt in the past regarding the sale of indulgences, but the Church herself has no corruption.

The Novus Ordo mass is so “flexible/unstable” that I don’t think “the Church” can actually approve of it in the sense that the books are not specific enough and the bishops individually have so much power over the liturgy that “norms” no longer mean much.

Even Pope Benedict has had problems with it, the variety of styles that he’s had to offer the Mass is mind-bending. His replacement of archbishop Marini is a step in the right direction though.

Thank you for clarifying. I disagree with you that the NO mass is “unapproved” by the Church."

When a bishop is appointed by the Holy Father, I believe a charism is given by the Holy Spirit that enables that bishop to administer to his diocese and to correctly interpret the various teachings of the Church and apply them to his diocese.

Of course some bishops go terribly astray and give in to their baser natures, allowing abuses and sinful activities in their diocese.

But I honestly think that the system of Holy Father overseeing Bishops overseeing priests overseeing deacons overseeing the laity–the system that Jesus Christ Himself gave the Church–is still working fine.

Our Bishop, Thomas Doran, has his doctorate in Canon Law. Years ago, while I was happily Protestant, I recognized that Bishop Doran was a true apostle of Jesus Christ. I used to listen to him on the radio, and I recognized that he spoke the truth. I trust him as I would trust Jesus, although I do realize that he is a sinful man like all of us are sinful people.

Bishop Doran has the charism of wisdom, tempered with a lot of love for his flock. He runs a good, tight diocese. The abuses that many of you speak of are simply never seen here, because Bishop Doran steps in and stops abuses before they have a chance to become the norm.

Our diocese has had the TLM since the mid 1980s, and we also have the LifeTeen Mass and a children’s mass. Bishop Doran is not only conservative and traditional, he’s open to the new works of the Holy Spirit in the Catholic Church. I absolutely love the man–he never minces words and I would not want to be on the receiving end of his righteous wrath–but his smile is as warm and sweet as a child’s.

I wish that all Catholics were as blessed as I am to have such a trustworthy shepherd.

 

[GerardP]

Thank you for clarifying. I disagree with you that the NO mass is “unapproved” by the Church."

Not that it’s unapproved. It’s unapprovable.

When a bishop is appointed by the Holy Father, I believe a charism is given by the Holy Spirit that enables that bishop to administer to his diocese and to correctly interpret the various teachings of the Church and apply them to his diocese.

Can you point to some magisterial document that states this?

It’s not a part of the Catholic faith.

Of course some bishops go terribly astray and give in to their baser natures, allowing abuses and sinful activities in their diocese.

So how do you discern which bishops are heeding the charism of the Holy Ghost and which are going astray?

But I honestly think that the system of Holy Father overseeing Bishops overseeing priests overseeing deacons overseeing the laity–the system that Jesus Christ Himself gave the Church–is still working fine.

Then you are opposed to the idea of collegiality as I am?

Our Bishop, Thomas Doran, has his doctorate in Canon Law. Years ago, while I was happily Protestant, I recognized that Bishop Doran was a true apostle of Jesus Christ. I used to listen to him on the radio, and I recognized that he spoke the truth. I trust him as I would trust Jesus, although I do realize that he is a sinful man like all of us are sinful people.

Bishop Doran has the charism of wisdom, tempered with a lot of love for his flock. He runs a good, tight diocese. The abuses that many of you speak of are simply never seen here, because Bishop Doran steps in and stops abuses before they have a chance to become the norm.

That’s very good. He sounds like a reasonable man. It’s good that he gives things like his one minute meditations.

Our diocese has had the TLM since the mid 1980s, and we also have the LifeTeen Mass and a children’s mass. Bishop Doran is not only conservative and traditional, he’s open to the new works of the Holy Spirit in the Catholic Church. I absolutely love the man–he never minces words and I would not want to be on the receiving end of his righteous wrath–but his smile is as warm and sweet as a child’s.

As far as I know, he’s got no problem with me. I don’t expect every bishop to see the problems in the Church in the same way.
The “new works” of the Holy Ghost in the Church? What exactly is that?

Maybe he would recognize in traditionalists the white martyrdom he spoke about in his Feb 7 meditation.

I wish that all Catholics were as blessed as I am to have such a trustworthy shepherd.

Keep him in your prayers. Good bishops are under great pressure not to be good bishops. Both by the devil and by human enemies of the Church.

 

[Cat]

The New Testament gives several accounts of the charisms that are given to those who build up the church:

I Corinthians 12: 7-11, Romans 12: 6-8, and Ephesians 4: 11-14. I believe that I Peter also has a passage about this, but for the life of me, I can’t remember the reference.

The New Testament IS part of the teaching of the Catholic Church. These passages make it clear that the Holy Spirit gifts those whom He appoints to serve in the Church.

It is excellent reading and very reassuring that the Holy Spirit WILL take care of the Church.

 

[Cat]

GerardP, you ask how you discern which bishops have gone astray.

If you read those New Testament passages, you will see that the Holy Spirit gives gifts of discernment and wisdom to various people in the Church.

I believe that people with those gifts need to use those gifts to build up the Church. The Holy Spirit within them will prompt them to recognize sin and abuse, and help them to know how to proceed to put a stop to these things.

As for those of us who do NOT possess these gifts, we need to use the gifts that we have. This is how the Church is built up–when everyone uses their own Holy Spirit-given charisms.

BTW, this teaching is propagated in the Redemptorist Catholic churches. (My daughter is converting this Easter and has been attending RCIA at a Redemptorist parish.) A lady named Sherry Weddell has worked with her priests to develop a program for Catholics to help them discern their spiritual gifts:

siena.org/spgifts.htm

 

[latinmasslover]

I sincerely doubt it. Especially when you tell the people you want to attract that they’re in “happy clappy” parishes. Respect for other people helps a lot.

I didn’t come to practice Catholicism as it should be as a result of this forum, but as a result of people who didn’t beat around the bush, who told it like it was. There’s too much emphasis today on being nice, and not hurting anyone’s feelings. The result? Indifference. Truth is viewed as a “should,” an option, and not a must.

Charity helps, and many Catholics who hold to tradition have given charitable responses. It’s when we’re bashed that we get a little cranky, and this goes both ways. Archbishop Lefebvre is a perfect example of this. People can think what they want about him, but they cannot deny that he was charitable, and at the same time, never sacrificed the truth. He knew the Commandments and kept them in order: God first.

 

[GerardP]

… Archbishop Lefebvre is a perfect example of this. People can think what they want about him, but they cannot deny that he was charitable, and at the same time, never sacrificed the truth. He knew the Commandments and kept them in order: God first.

Good point. I’ve pointed this out before and it’s worth saying again that the battles over JPII and Archbishop LeFebvre are often done in a much more brutal fashion than JPII and LeFebvre were towards each other.

There may be disagreements and high emotions but Bishop Fellay and Pope Benedict were and hopefully always are well-behaved towards one another.

We should each respectively imitate them.

 

[GerardP]

GerardP, you ask how you discern which bishops have gone astray.

If you read those New Testament passages, you will see that the Holy Spirit gives gifts of discernment and wisdom to various people in the Church.

I believe that people with those gifts need to use those gifts to build up the Church. The Holy Spirit within them will prompt them to recognize sin and abuse, and help them to know how to proceed to put a stop to these things.

As for those of us who do NOT possess these gifts, we need to use the gifts that we have. This is how the Church is built up–when everyone uses their own Holy Spirit-given charisms.

BTW, this teaching is propagated in the Redemptorist Catholic churches. (My daughter is converting this Easter and has been attending RCIA at a Redemptorist parish.) A lady named Sherry Weddell has worked with her priests to develop a program for Catholics to help them discern their spiritual gifts:

siena.org/spgifts.htm

Cat,

I’ve been looking through that link you provided and I’m very concerned about it.

It seems very “loosey goosey” in some assumptions that it makes that don’t have the guarantees and the protection of the Holy Ghost. This is a common problem among Pentecostal influenced Catholics.

This may seem small but something that I often look for is the actual name of Jesus. “Christ” is often used but for some reason a phrase like, “Our Divine Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ…” is never present. That’s just a personal red flag that I look for.

Second, the distinction between discerning actual charisms of the Holy Ghost and demonic gifts is not even addressed and there is no protection against it.

Having been to some charismatic meetings, there is no consensus that “glossiola” is actually the same as the charism of speaking in tongues. St. Francis Xavier spoke in tongues, but they were real languages that people heard. A few years ago, a very famous apologist stood up during a charismatic meeting and started reciting one of the Psalms in Hebrew. Yet someone else with the gift of translation stood up and translated it as something completely un-connected to what had actually been said.

Third, the movement has doubtful roots in the traditions of Catholicism. There are no references to anything from the Magisterium prior to the reign of Paul VI. At the very least this is indicative of what Pope Benedict has warned of a "hermenuetic of rupture " or “discontinuity.”

I hope you’ll prayerfully read some of the more skeptical materials.

geocities.com/Vienna/Strasse/5816/charism.html

And if you are skittish about that. The recommendation of Charles Coulombe comes to mind, "Read the Athanasian Creed, the Syllabus of Errors of Pius IX and the Syllabus of St. Pius X and the anti-modernist oath. If you have any problems or difficulties with anything you read in those documents. You have a problem with your faith formation.

 

[Cat]

I don’t think I have anything to worry about, GerardP.

First, it sounds like the Siena Institute is run by the Dominicans, who are orthodox Catholics.

Second, I haven’t seen anything come out of our diocese or from our bishop warning us against the Siena Institute or against Sherry Weddell. Usually our bishop is on top of things that are dangerous or harmful, and he boots them out. (Happened about a year ago when one of the schismatic Catholic groups tried to rent a facility in a town near ours–Bishop Doran made sure they didn’t get the facility.)

Third, I haven’t seen anything in the more conservative Catholic media, including Catholic Answers, warning Catholics about Ms. Weddell.

Fourth, I’ve heard nothing on Catholic Radio or EWTN warning against her.

What I’m trying to say is that the Catholic Church seems to be supportive of this movement, and that’s the important thing. I will do as the Church says, even if it doesn’t meet with my personal preferences. As long as Ms. Weddell’s work is receiving the endorsement of the Catholic Church, I’m fine with it. When they issue warnings against it, I’ll walk away.

I’ll start a thread in the Apologist Section asking for opinions, and I hope you’ll follow it, too.

My daughter got involved with the Redemptorist parish in her home city because her diocese recommended that she attend it for RCIA because they were the only parish that does RCIA on Sunday mornings instead of the evenings, and this is the only time she could go (she’s a professional stage manager and works almost every evening.)

Her diocese seems to be a fairly traditional diocese, and I don’t think they would advise a young convert to attend a “suspect” church.

 

[Netty313]

When I think of “happy clappy,” I think of my husband’s friend’s church, which is non-denom. They sing an awful lot as well. A big screen is up front in the church and you follow along that way. But as to the Catholic Traditional Mass, I would surely like to attend one, but our parish, whose pastor has long ago faded from the spirit-filled light, STILL hands me Jesus. And it’s the exact same Jesus that is handed out at the Traditional Mass. My thoughts on anything to do with the strength of one Mass over another, is to just GO to any Mass offered. Not just on Sundays, but eventually maybe every single day. The “crowd” at daily Mass is now larger because of Lent, but it seems every year at least one or two of these folks continue on and join us at our parish in the “Breaking of the Bread” throughout the year.

We DO have a strong priest at our parish, and I’m always happy to see him offering Mass, but as my husband says, when Father X is there, at least we get to suffer more. There’s no lazy/half-powered Jesus at any Mass. And, of course, as Catholics, our power comes from the Eucharist. “Sum and substance” I believe the CCC calls it.

Netty313

 

[lovesMary]

I have never heard the nickname “Happy Clappy” before coming to this site. I have to say, it sounds derisive of a different religious expression. I prefer a solemn Catholic Mass myself, but it’s my understanding that certain ethnic and regional groups, such as African American and Southern, tend to express themselves with lots of clapping, amens, and expressive singing. I

I think, in the interest of respectfulness, we should refrain from using nicknames that sound derogatory. I’ve also been to Catholic Masses that used this jubilant style, and although it wasn’t what I’d want on a regular basis, it did seem to be an expression of the local culture, and it was a correctly done Mass as far as GIRM.

 

[latinmasslover]

I have never heard the nickname “Happy Clappy” before coming to this site. I have to say, it sounds derisive of a different religious expression. I prefer a solemn Catholic Mass myself, but it’s my understanding that certain ethnic and regional groups, such as African American and Southern, tend to express themselves with lots of clapping, amens, and expressive singing. I

I think, in the interest of respectfulness, we should refrain from using nicknames that sound derogatory. I’ve also been to Catholic Masses that used this jubilant style, and although it wasn’t what I’d want on a regular basis, it did seem to be an expression of the local culture, and it was a correctly done Mass as far as GIRM.

But the Mass is a sacrifice, the Sacrifice. It’s not the time to be jumping for joy, as many think. It’s solemn, our focus is on the passion of Christ, and I don’t think that any Christian, if they saw what the Angels and Saints see when the Mass is offered, would support “happy clappy.” We have to call this one as it is…disrespectful. If a community wants to get together for praise and worship, that’s fine. But not during the Holy Mass.

 

[lovesMary]

Probably those who prefer the jubulent style would take offense at your label of “disrespectful”. You should at least qualify that statement by saying “in my opinion”.

 

[Cat]

I agree that the Holy Mass is a sacrifice, and during the sacrifice, the clapping and cheering is inappropriate.

But the Holy Mass is also a celebration Jesus didn’t stay dead on the the “altar,” the cross! He rose from the dead, ascended into heaven, and He has remained with us in the Eucharist. We receive Him in Holy Communion and become part of His mystical Body and numbered among His members.

Both the angels and Jesus Himself asked, “Why are you weeping?” (John 20: 13, and John 20: 15).

When Jesus appeared to the disciples, they could not believe it for joy, and were marveling. (Luke 24: 41).

And when the women were told by the angels to go tell his disciples, the departed quickly from the tomb with fear and great joy. (Matthew 28: 8).

What do YOU do when you are filled with great joy?

Sometimes I am still and silent, but usually I sing, dance, clap, laugh, cry, cheer. These actions are NOT disrespectful at all. Jesus is risen! He has conquered death and the grave and He is alive, and because of this, we too have hope that we shall rise with Him. He is alive and with us, TRULY with us, in the Holy Mass. That is reason for happiness and clapping and exuberant singing. I repeat, these emotions and the expressions of these emotions are NOT disrespectful.

The ones who are disrespectful, IMO, are the ones who are just standing there paying no attention, and WE don’t have any way of knowing for certain which people are doing this.

 

[HOPEFUL_IN_UK]

I agree with others. This is the effect that the Traditional Forum has had on me.

I have really cut down the time that I spend on CAF due to the damage that certain topics does to my faith. I try to stay away from these hot topics, but it’s like a dog returning to its vomit. I find them disturbingly fascinating. I’m sure that Satan is rejoicing because he can work through these debates to convince me that Catholics are just like Protestants–seeking their own personal preference rather than submitting to the Authority of Christ and His Church.

I think that the Moderators of CAF should come up with a “WARNING” flag for topics that may be harmful to the faith of new converts, potential converts, and inquirers. It is extremely hurtful to read how many people choose “correct rubrics” over “charity,” in plain violation of the teachings of our Lord and the Church.

Today I was reminded of the Words of Christ when He said, “Whatever you have done to the least of these my brethren, you have done to Me.” I think a lot of Catholics will be very surprised at their judgement when they try to explain to the Lord that they were trying to defend the Blessed Sacrament, and Jesus tells them, “But by hurting these “little ones”–the ones weak in faith–with your harsh words and insistence upon letter of the law, you have actually hurt ME.”

I hope this doesn’t sound mean-spirited. I have had a very bad Lent and have struggled with many of these issues. I love my Church, but I feel distrustful of its people because of the lack of charity. Jesus said that people will know His Church by their love for one another.

The only one I trust is Jesus and His ordained leaders–the Pope, the Bishops and priests, and the Deacons. Just as I no longer believe in sola Scriptura, I also don’t believe in sola GIRM or sola any Catholic documents about liturgy. It is not up to me to interpret Scripture or GIRM or liturgy documents–it is the Christ appointed job of His ordained leaders. Thank God for that because then I might become as uncharitable as some of the interpreters on CAF. As it is, I am not very charitable, which is yet another reason to stay away from CAF as much as possible. I don’t want to lose my soul at this point on the journey.

I have a similar problem with CAF. A good part of my attraction to these forums is a sorta rubbernecking, like watching a train wreck.

I used to refer people to Catholic Answers all the time when they had questions about Catholicism. But, I recently hesitated to refer a girl who is considering converting… while I think the articles on the faith at Catholic Answers are excellent, I was afraid she’d stumble upon the forums, see threads like this one, and run screaming.

 

[Brother_John]

I have a similar problem with CAF. A good part of my attraction to these forums is a sorta rubbernecking, like watching a train wreck.

I used to refer people to Catholic Answers all the time when they had questions about Catholicism. But, I recently hesitated to refer a girl who is considering converting… while I think the articles on the faith at Catholic Answers are excellent, I was afraid she’d stumble upon the forums, see threads like this one, and run screaming.

Sad but true.

I have been doing a weekly Bible study with a non-denominational friend for several months…making some headway…he and his wife went to Mass with us last Sunday. He has lots of questions, but I’m not about to suggest CAF to him. It would run him off before I ever got a good start with him.

 

[latinmass]

Sad but true.

I have been doing a weekly Bible study with a non-denominational friend for several months…making some headway…he and his wife went to Mass with us last Sunday. He has lots of questions, but I’m not about to suggest CAF to him. It would run him off before I ever got a good start with him.

It is sad and humorous how so many think that coming to the Church is some sort of logical conclusion that is made by the effort of those who hear and the strategical display of facts. The truth is heard, and people come to Jesus and the Church by Him opening their ears, just as many who write on these forums have not had their ears opened to hear truth yet.

 

[HOPEFUL_IN_UK]

It is sad and humorous how so many think that coming to the Church is some sort of logical conclusion that is made by the effort of those who hear and the strategical display of facts. The truth is heard, and people come to Jesus and the Church by Him opening their ears, just as many who write on these forums have not had their ears opened to hear truth yet.

I do think you make a good point… if my friend is being drawn to the Church, I shouldn’t think that it’s all up to me to make it happen. But, when she called me and wanted to talk to me, I was put in the position of being asked for advice or guidance. And, I just couldn’t bring myself to say, “Check out Catholic.com… they’ve got lots of information!”

Of course, with a URL like “catholic.com” she’s probably already found it on her own…