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pnewton
Guest
Yes, but not every one has time to waste trying to get into the mind of every fringe element. While such labels do tend to prejudice against some, they are a great time saver. For examlple, if I went to Heaven’s Gate website to see if they had a point on their authority to interpret the Bible, I would like to be preinformed that they believe in aliens, so I know not to waste my time.
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HOPEFUL_IN_UK
Guest
Exactly!
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GerardP
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Searching for the truth is never a waste of time. Telling someone to look at previous teachings of Popes or older Catechisms is not “trying to get into the mind of every fringe element either.”
Everyone has to get their priorities straight or God will definitely punish them for culpable ignorance.
Why would belief or unbelief in aliens tell you they were not Catholic? From my knowledge, I don’t believe the Church has ruled on that one way or the other. It would be better to search Heaven’s Gate or some other organization and see if they make any reference to the Catholic Church at all.
The Magisterium is the measure for judgement not our personal preferences.
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GerardP
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I consider Arinze to be a moderate. I was very disappointed when I saw him interviewed a few times and he insisted that if the Novus Ordo was done “correctly” no one would want the Traditional Latin Mass. That indicates that he doesn’t know or won’t admit what the attraction to the TLM of the traditionalists is.Is that the same Cardinal Arinze who considers “horizontal” liturgy heretical? And the vertical liturgy more Christ centered?
The same Cardinal who calls the abuses-made-norms just what they are.
He is a gem. Would that more Cardinals were like him.
He also equated the codification of the TLM with the promulgation of the Novus Ordo as if the circumstances and nature of the promulgation of the two missals were the same. That is completely wrong and more of a bit of political spin.
The recently deceased Cardinal Stickler was my best choice for the Cardinal with the most non-politically motivated and straight talking style.
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GerardP
Guest
I don’t understand this need that seems to emanate where people are looking for a leader in whom they don’t have to think, exercise judgement or apply reason to.
"If you just listen to (name…) "
or
“If you just read…(name…)” …“You’ll be fine.”
That is not so. Every man is prone to error, corruption and confusion. That includes all Popes unless they are specifically speaking infallibly.
A person is perfectly free to disagree on prudential matters with the Pope or the Cardinal/Cardinals and still remain a good, loyal and faithful Catholic.
In this day and age especially, you have to put the time in to learn the faith, the history and the politics of Our Church. Otherwise, you’ll be confused and lead astray by the enemies of the Church within the Church and the confused within the Church.
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Cat
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GerardP, everyone has a different calling or “vocation” from God.
The vocation of a wife and mother does not allow a great deal of time for study. A woman with this vocation must be careful to choose the “better way,” as St. Paul expresses it in I Corinthians 13.
As I said in an earlier post, I prefer to spend my reading and quiet time reading the Bible, the Catechism, and various devotionals and saints’ biographies. I also enjoy reading many of the apologetics books written by converts (e.g., Scott Hahn), as I myself am a convert from evangelical Protestantism.
I also enjoy praying the Rosary, and I love spending an hour in Adoration of Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament at our parish’s very busy 24-hour Adoration Chapel.
And that’s about all the time I have for such things. I work a full time job (my kids are grown), and I take care of my husband. I write novels and screenplays, I do the usual family things, and I try (unsucessfully) to work out and keep myself healthy. I play piano at two parishes and I also am very active in my city’s music club and various volunteer activities.
Add 7 hours a day of sleep, and that’s it. No more time.
I came to realize a long time ago that Christians cannot and should not be trying to do the work that God has assigned to someone else. I am not called to be an administrator or liturgical director or cardinal in charge of liturgy. God expects me to stay in my own cubicle and do the work that He has given me, not poke around in someone else’s “cubicle” and try to be his or her watchdog.
God has appointed bishops and priests to be my authorities, and I trust these people that God has ordained and sent to my diocese. If they get it wrong and cause me to stumble, then it will not be ME that is condemned by God, but these men. (Jeremiah 23: 1-4) I have nothing to fear from God if I obey Him and keep my eyes fixed on Jesus and His shepherds.
But woe to me if I rely on my OWN interpretations and my OWN intelligence to decide whether or not God’s appointed ones are “doing it right” or “making mistakes.”
I do not have these gifts from God. It is an insult to God for me to insist that I do have these gifts and that I am capable of making these kinds of decisions about His Church and that I am capable of holding God’s ordained men accountable. As David said, “Who can raise his hand against the Lord’s anointed and be guiltless?” (I Samuel 26: 9)
If they are doing it wrong, then may the Lord rebuke them. He doesn’t need my help. What He needs is my obedience.
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Brother_John
Guest
Speaking of “changing minds”…
Over the past 20 years, I had sponsored 2 converts into the Church. One Baptist, and one “Disciples of Christ”.
Numbers 3 and 4 will complete their journey on the 22nd of this month…one Baptist and one “Church of Christ”.
I started all four of them by taking her to the 9:30 guitar Mass. Two of them now prefer the “traditional organ Mass” at 8 or 11 am.
I started a few weeks ago on #5, by taking her to a couple of Life Teen Masses, even though she is nearly 40. She also is/was Baptist. She said she liked the music, even though she could tell that I didn’t. She also said that it was “more of a ceremony” than the church she had been going to. (progress, in small steps)
I wouldn’t think of trying to encourage a potential convert by throwing them headlong into a TLM. I’m trying to win them over, not scare them off.
Stick their toe in, then their legs, then let them wade a bit…Throwing them overboard in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean might teach them to swim out of neccessity, but it won’t encourage them to want to swim in the future.
:twocents:
Over the past 20 years, I had sponsored 2 converts into the Church. One Baptist, and one “Disciples of Christ”.
Numbers 3 and 4 will complete their journey on the 22nd of this month…one Baptist and one “Church of Christ”.
I started all four of them by taking her to the 9:30 guitar Mass. Two of them now prefer the “traditional organ Mass” at 8 or 11 am.
I started a few weeks ago on #5, by taking her to a couple of Life Teen Masses, even though she is nearly 40. She also is/was Baptist. She said she liked the music, even though she could tell that I didn’t. She also said that it was “more of a ceremony” than the church she had been going to. (progress, in small steps)
I wouldn’t think of trying to encourage a potential convert by throwing them headlong into a TLM. I’m trying to win them over, not scare them off.
Stick their toe in, then their legs, then let them wade a bit…Throwing them overboard in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean might teach them to swim out of neccessity, but it won’t encourage them to want to swim in the future.
:twocents:
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pnewton
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I did not say that it was and you missed my point entirely. I was talking about optimizing one’s time. Every miniute spent reviewing the claims of Pope Michael, for example is a minute that could better be spent in a more sure venue for truth, like the Bible of the CCC. I was referring to optimizing one’s time in the search for truth.
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pnewton
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Hearkening back to your earlier post, I think too many worry and fuss about such issues unnecessarily. The best thing about the authority structure of the Church is that we laity do not need to pick out everything for ourselves and weigh every decision and doctrine for our own opinion. We basically have three people to listen to: our priest, our bishop and our Holy Father. Of course, they will make mistakes in areas of prudence and administration. There are areas of doctrine that are still being developed that may go back and forth. But if we truly have faith in the Holy Spirit and the Holy Catholic Church, we need not worry any substantial problem I am amazed at the lack of faith in the leadership of the Holy Spirit some have here. Sure people have free will and can goof up in many ways. But if we do not have enough faith to trust the Holy Spirit to guide us, what is the point of even staying Catholic.
Cat, as you say your rosary, pray for those who find themselves for whatever reason in an irregular position with the Church. Pray for those who are in position of leadership that they will find a solution to promote unity with those in such positions. I will do the same. This will be more profitable than all the posts in the world.
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MrS
Guest
amazing:whacky:
Are you implying that it is better to give them some fun stuff or more fellowship-liturgy first, then give them the real thing?
No convert gets thrown overboard… they have to go through a process of instruction as they make their way across the Tiber, and that would include an honest introduction to Catholic doctrines and practices.
Only if you are scared off yourself, will they adapt that attitude. This reminds be of Scott Hahn’s first Mass… even as he sat in the back and observed and listened to the scriptures and saw the awe of the liturgy.
If the individual has an interest in Catholicism, he is already part way home.
I hope this concept does not expand to introducing him to a lousy priest, so he will better apprieciate a good one.
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GerardP
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Nobody on this board is advocating the views of that poor misguided kid.
To equate someone telling you that the CCC has errors and ambiguities in it that are designed by modernists to mislead people with “pope” Michael is disingenuous. You are equating the Magisterium of the Church and the great theologians of the past as equivalent to “pope” Micheal.
Making a person aware of errors or ambiguities and pointing someone towards a more clear explanation from something like the Catechism of the Council of Trent, promulgated by St. Pius V and written under the supervision of St. Charles Borromeo or an encyclical by a plain language Pope like St. Pius X should be enough for a person who values knowing the faith to make some time, and if necessary, revise their opinions on the resources they are using and submit to the true teaching of the Church.
A true waste of time is to ignore warnings out of prejudice and spend years believing one thing to find out later that you were wrong. That some things were much simpler to understand and that many things you learned and held were not orthodox.
The best advice I ever heard Mother Angelica say on television was to real older books. She said she didn’t trust any book that was written less than 40 (now probably 50) years ago. Of course, that probably didn’t make Scott Hahn feel good since he was sitting right next to her plugging his latest book. But hey, that’s Mother.
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GerardP
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I don’t think the Liturgy is the place for that kind of individualized “warming up.”The concept of crawling before walking, and walking before running is not new…but yes, that is my methodology, and it seems to work. My opinion based on experience.
St. Francis Xavier used to say the TLM and the mass itself would convert people.
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Brother_John
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Both opinions, not official Church doctrine. St. Francis Xavier lived in a different place and time.
As long as I am able to bring others to the Church, I will continue to do so in a manner that is successful, providing that it remains consistient with Church teaching.
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pnewton
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One has to draw the line somewhere. A more realistic issue is when someone links to www.thepopeisaheretic.com, for example, I will not waste my time. I will not consider it sad at all if I am wrong, or more accurately, some position is reversed. I will accept the new change and not bust a gut about it. I do not believe in the OF of the Mass. I believe in the Church behind it.
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Aragorn1
Guest
Very well put.
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iona_scribe
Guest
I’ve only started reading this forum recently, but the thing that did get me started thinking about the differences between TLM and NO several articles I’ve read from adoremus.org in my search to understand the modern use of sacred art and architecture.
I’m trying to wade through Sacrosanctum Concilium right now, and I find myself agreeing with Adoremus that there aren’t really problems with the document itself so much as radical changes that have been made “in the spirit of Vatican II” (in other words, extrapolating pretty far beyond the original intent of what’s on the page).
As a new Catholic, there’s a lot I’m trying to catch up with. Would someone please recommend a Catechism or documents about liturgy from before V2 so I can read the V2 documents in context? A lot of people here have said or implied that things are missing from the NO mass without really giving examples or info, so I’d like to research it for myself. Thanks!
I hope to attend a TLM soon at Mission San Juan Capistrano
My experience of the Latin NO mass while visiting a Norbertine monastery was a really amazing experience, and I’m eager to learn more.
I’m trying to wade through Sacrosanctum Concilium right now, and I find myself agreeing with Adoremus that there aren’t really problems with the document itself so much as radical changes that have been made “in the spirit of Vatican II” (in other words, extrapolating pretty far beyond the original intent of what’s on the page).
As a new Catholic, there’s a lot I’m trying to catch up with. Would someone please recommend a Catechism or documents about liturgy from before V2 so I can read the V2 documents in context? A lot of people here have said or implied that things are missing from the NO mass without really giving examples or info, so I’d like to research it for myself. Thanks!
I hope to attend a TLM soon at Mission San Juan Capistrano
My experience of the Latin NO mass while visiting a Norbertine monastery was a really amazing experience, and I’m eager to learn more.
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MrS
Guest
Welcome… it is strange that a “new Catholic” can understand this reality… yet some posters here are either to stubborn, biased or blind to see what you see.I’ve only started reading this forum recently, but the thing that did get me started thinking about the differences between TLM and NO several articles I’ve read from adoremus.org in my search to understand the modern use of sacred art and architecture.
I’m trying to wade through Sacrosanctum Concilium right now, and I find myself agreeing with Adoremus that there aren’t really problems with the document itself so much as radical changes that have been made “in the spirit of Vatican II” (in other words, extrapolating pretty far beyond the original intent of what’s on the page).
As a new Catholic, there’s a lot I’m trying to catch up with. Would someone please recommend a Catechism or documents about liturgy from before V2 so I can read the V2 documents in context? A lot of people here have said or implied that things are missing from the NO mass without really giving examples or info, so I’d like to research it for myself. Thanks!
I hope to attend a TLM soon at Mission San Juan Capistrano
There is hope!!!
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