Has anyone changed there mind here?

[pnewton]

But the question is how do you know that what you believe is accurate? (It’s very hard to get people back to the first principals here. )

Good question. First I believe in God, the Father Almighty. Why? Without reinventing the wheel, and typing forever my life story, let me say that I think along the lines of St. Thomas on this. As to my belief in Christ, I think Josh Mcdowell explains that best, meaning an examination of the historical evidence and all logical alternatives. There is also subjective experience, but that is superfulous. My belief in the Catholic Church is sort of along the lines of Mark Shea’s By What Authority? I am a Fundamentalist convert, so this question has been most thoroughly answerd to my satisfaction, or I would not be Catholic. The only thing, in order to believe that Tradition has any value, I have to accept that the authority structure of the Church has a charism and is under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. If God does not speak through the Church today, why accept that he spoke through the Church at anytime? Just like I see a logical inconsistency inherent in sola scriptura, I see a similar inconsistency in accepting “Tradition”, but rejecting the authority behind that tradition. Then if we accept the authority of the Church through time, I find it inconsistent to reject the authority of the Church today.

 

[HOPEFUL_IN_UK]

“My Jesus is better than your Jesus!”

I just went to weekday Mass at my neighborhood parish. Why on EARTH wouldn’t someone go to a Novus Ordo daily Mass when they have the opportunity? Sloth is my usual reason for not making the effort more frequently… but Pride seems like a strange reason to skip a sacrament.

 

[sosayi1960]

Actually the ones who will be in trouble are the ones who thought the TLM had “too many gestures” and “needless repetitions” and
“people don’t understand Latin anyway.” and introduced a badly translated optional rite and tried to pass it off as mandatory.

The problem of the Novus Ordo in it’s purest form is its impoverishment. It is missing things. As I’ve stated before, it gains stability the closer it imitates the TLM. Nothing in the Novus Ordo is a positive incentive to impiety. It simply needs more of them and more reinforcements.

The problem isn’t the ceremonies, the vestments or outward signs. It’s the lack of them especially when compared to what it illegally replaced.

Boy,
No wonder people are leaving the Catholic Church. I don’t understand the self-righteous Catholics. I grew up with tons of Catholics. We all went through all the bells and whistles. We’re leaving the church. Why? The Catholic Church is more concerned about a good show. The church doesn’t care about the average person. Everything is outward. Didn’t the Lord say to render our hearts? My wife is the hold-out. I take the kids to a Protestant Church. We need to focus on Christ not a Las Vegas show.
Happy Easter!

 

[MrS]

“Guitar Mass” or “Teen Life Mass”, is still valid Mass, whether you like it or not.

How astute… makes one want to look for the scripture verse that says

“…as often as you do this, or something like it, or something not like it, do it in remembrance of Me…”

.

 

[Eilish_Maura]

How astute… makes one want to look for the scripture verse that says

“…as often as you do this, or something like it, or something not like it, do it in remembrance of Me…”

.

Seems you are going for the drama here – can you provide something closer to a fact that could make this remark anywhere near appropriate?

 

[Brother_John]

How astute… makes one want to look for the scripture verse that says

“…as often as you do this, or something like it, or something not like it, do it in remembrance of Me…”

.

The TLM isn’t any more an accurate rendering of the Last Supper itself, in the context of your remark, than the OF/NO.

“As Jesus was lifted up to Heaven, angels came down from the sky, passing out 1962 Latin missals, singing God’s praise and exhorting the Apostles ‘Go ye forth and engage in the EF, for anything less is unworthy of the Kingdom of Heaven’”…

Taken from the book of…oh, wait, that WASN’T in Scripture or even early Tradition now, was it?

 

[Freshman88]

Boy,
No wonder people are leaving the Catholic Church.
I don’t understand the self-righteous Catholics. I grew up with tons of Catholics. We all went through all the bells and whistles. We’re leaving the church. Why? The Catholic Church is more concerned about a good show. The church doesn’t care about the average person. Everything is outward. Didn’t the Lord say to render our hearts? My wife is the hold-out. I take the kids to a Protestant Church. We need to focus on Christ not a Las Vegas show.
Happy Easter!

Bells and whistles? More concerned about a good show? Las Vegas?

Not only do you show your complete ignorance of Catholic liturgy but you offend us then wish us a happy easter?

Did somebody say, “self-righteous”?

 

[MrS]

As I posted this last entry, I had to smile. I knew, just knew, it would arose both BJ and EM. How predictable. Me bad.

How about this one… Let’s see, we all spoke one language at one time, until we started to sin and treat God lightly. So he “returned the favor” with the Tower of Babel… so we would have many versions of speach and would be confused and lost.

As for bringing in converts, I attend a small parish that will be offering the EF to the couple hundred who want it, and to others who simply want to experience it and see what all the hub-bub is about.

When the current pastor was assigned 3 years ago, the parish for the most part was all fellowship. Pastor’s female “friend” sat front row, and practically everyone did the new stuff. You know, the stuff “permitted” in the last 40 years. Laity in the sanctuary, lots of EMHC, postures and gestures of friendship, little or no kneeling, but lots of noise… guitars and drums … and even two youth directors who would not claim to believe in the Real Presence. etc.

As the new pastor’s strong love of the Eucharist became known, people began to join this parish, in hope and in relief.

Without words, and only by example, people began to kneel for the consecration, and after communion. Handholding and conversations during Mass have all but disappeared. The altar rails are back, the servers are wearing cassocks and surplices etc. Incense is welcome. And the non-Catholic music director has been replaced with a wonderful young gal who has brought the organ to life again , including some chant. The people in general now actually prefer hymns from Aquinas instead of Haas etc.

Have minds changed???

Absolutely!! Not by arguing about it on the CAF. Not by trying to convince others that the TLM is the only real Mass.

(I have stated my position that a properly celebrated NO is a beautiful liturgy. And this new “traditional” pastor has said his “preference is for the NO, done the right way… but we seldom see it, and that is the direction we are heading for…” I tend to agree with him on this.)

But :
now I see that when one takes a strong position - as GeraldP has done - that the discussion finally end up asking if he is SSPX… from a poster who is(?) a Deacon no less. Despiration maybe??

now I see that when one takes the opposite position - as perhaps EM does - the discussion is simply talk without evidence or reference to Church history - old history and new history both.

now I see when someone like Holden wants to experience both liturgies, he is not encouraged to do so without reservation.

now I see that Brother John, who appears to have his head on straight, will sometimes get silly (like I do too ) and fall back on “Church teaching” like the Deacon does - but with a selective approach I find disturbing. IMHO

Thankfully, I also see that some are encouraged to read VATII and other documents like the GIRM and the Rubrics. They will come to better understand the great chasm that exists between what VATII etc really does say (and NOT say), and what some lay and clergy have implemented since then – in total abuse and error.

As a revert to Catholicism who returned in 1992 after 25 years, I thank God I was not subjected to the gradual changes after 1968. When I returned my first thoughts were “What the heck happened to the Church?”

I believe too many Catholics have become the frogs thrown into the pot these past 40 years, and as the heat rose(changes took place), they became complacent unto their own demise.

And I see I have changed my mind. I do love the TLM. and I do love the NO. Perhaps there should be only one Rite, perhaps not. Benedict XVI will set the example first, then implement the change or correction… just as he has already been doing.

God Love Him…

.

 

[Brother_John]

Bells and whistles? More concerned about a good show? Las Vegas?

Not only do you show your complete ignorance of Catholic liturgy but you offend us then wish us a happy easter?

Did somebody say, “self-righteous”?

It would seem that self-righteous ignorance of Catholic Liturgy goes both ways.

It is really sad, to see so many posters here, who apparently can not attend a NO/OF Mass, without being on constant patrol, looking for “abuses”, “liberties”, or “misinterpretions” in their minds.

Again, the NO/OF Mass is perfectly valid, whether the music is played on the piano, organ, or guitar. It is perfectly valid, in Spanish, English, or Life Teen format.

:banghead:

 

[ProVobis]

“But believe me, most evangelicals would not be receptive to a TLM. Even an NO Mass is a major, MAJOR shock.”

The only thing that I’ve found our evangelical friends to be shocked at is that Catholics are bound to go to Church every Sunday or they will go to Hell. Those are harsh conditions if you think about it and can, in fact, distract from a pure spiritual uplifting of the soul.

---

“Again, the NO/OF Mass is perfectly valid, whether the music is played on the piano, organ, or guitar. It is perfectly valid, in Spanish, English, or Life Teen format.”

What exactly does “valid” mean in your context? How do you explain “validity” to an evangelical?

 

[Brother_John]

“But believe me, most evangelicals would not be receptive to a TLM. Even an NO Mass is a major, MAJOR shock.”

The only thing that I’ve found our evangelical friends to be shocked at is that Catholics are bound to go to Church every Sunday or they will go to Hell. Those are harsh conditions if you think about it and can, in fact, distract from a pure spiritual uplifting of the soul.

---

“Again, the NO/OF Mass is perfectly valid, whether the music is played on the piano, organ, or guitar. It is perfectly valid, in Spanish, English, or Life Teen format.”

What exactly does “valid” mean in your context? How do you explain “validity” to an evangelical?

Different quotes from slightly different subjects within the thread. My comment on validity is directed toward those who insist that the NO/OF/1969 Mass is deficient, irreverant, et al, ad nauseum. When discussing with an evangelical, they are ALL valid, which they in fact, are.

The upper quote references comments regarding exposing potential converts to the Catholic Mass, in a “walk before you run” mindset.

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

In response to MrS. First, I am a deacon, and this kind of language is very typical of SSPX. Instead of defending Gerald P, why dont you let him respond to this question. I have to admit, I have never attended a mass such as you have described, and pray to God that I never do. To state that nothing is a positive incentive to piety in the Novus Ordo , is a bit much. I will challenge such a statement, because this confronts the consecration itself. How would you respond to such a statement.
Deacon Ed B

 

[Freshman88]

It would seem that self-righteous ignorance of Catholic Liturgy goes both ways.

It is really sad, to see so many posters here, who apparently can not attend a NO/OF Mass, without being on constant patrol, looking for “abuses”, “liberties”, or “misinterpretions” in their minds.

Again, the NO/OF Mass is perfectly valid, whether the music is played on the piano, organ, or guitar. It is perfectly valid, in Spanish, English, or Life Teen format.

:banghead:

you made that statement and quoted me because?

 

[GerardP]

Originally Posted by GerardP

The problem of the Novus Ordo in it’s purest form is its impoverishment. It is missing things. As I’ve stated before, it gains stability the closer it imitates the TLM. Nothing in the Novus Ordo is a positive incentive to impiety

. It simply needs more of them and more reinforcements.

The problem isn’t the ceremonies, the vestments or outward signs. It’s the lack of them especially when compared to what it illegally replaced.

This kind of language I have heard before, from those of SSPX. Is this where you are coming from. Whether you agree or not the Novus Ordo is equally as valid and efficacious as the Latin Mass. Please tell me where the Holy Spirit guided you and how, in order for you to make such statements. Because believe it or not, they do not agree with official Church teaching. **Rethink your statement that “nothing is an incentive to piety”, **especially at the time of the consecration, or do you believe it to be invalid as many in SSPX believe? I know one in particular who told me, he "had to go there in order to save his immortal soul?. Do you make this statement also?
Deacon Ed B

Deacon Ed,

Instead of me rethinking something, how about you re-read something?

I’ve copied it and put emphasis on it for your convenience.

God Bless,

Gerard

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

To Gerald P, My sincere apologies for misreading your post. My misreading did give a totally opposite meaning of what you intended. Please accept this apology with prayers.
Deacon Ed B

 

[MrS]

In response to MrS. First, I am a deacon, and this kind of language is very typical of SSPX. Instead of defending Gerald P, why dont you let him respond to this question. I have to admit, I have never attended a mass such as you have described, and pray to God that I never do. To state that nothing is a positive incentive to piety in the Novus Ordo , is a bit much. I will challenge such a statement, because this confronts the consecration itself. How would you respond to such a statement.
Deacon Ed B

He has… it seems a human mistake caused some confusion, huh?

.

 

[latinmass]

It would seem that self-righteous ignorance of Catholic Liturgy goes both ways.

It is really sad, to see so many posters here, who apparently can not attend a NO/OF Mass, without being on constant patrol, looking for “abuses”, “liberties”, or “misinterpretions” in their minds.

Again, the NO/OF Mass is perfectly valid, whether the music is played on the piano, organ, or guitar. It is perfectly valid, in Spanish, English, or Life Teen format.

:banghead:

Valid but illicit in many ways. Use at times and or overuse of Extraordinary Ministers of Holy Communion is illicit.(Eucharistic Ministers as they are illicitlly called) Contemporary music/instruments are illicit. Lay people in the sanctuary is illicit. Holding hands during the Our Father is illicit. I could go on. Why do people support illicit things done to the Mass. There are important reasons why these things are illicit. Learn our liturgy and support the Mass as it should be done, then these abuses and others will not continue to disrespect our Lord and ourselves.
The General Instruction of the Roman Missal is a great reference for these items.

 

[lovesMary]

Boy,
No wonder people are leaving the Catholic Church. I don’t understand the self-righteous Catholics. I grew up with tons of Catholics. We all went through all the bells and whistles. We’re leaving the church. Why? The Catholic Church is more concerned about a good show. The church doesn’t care about the average person. Everything is outward. Didn’t the Lord say to render our hearts? My wife is the hold-out. I take the kids to a Protestant Church. We need to focus on Christ not a Las Vegas show.
Happy Easter!

Many people feel that it is Protestant Churches that try to put on an entertaining show, Las Vegas style.

 

[Brother_John]

Contemporary music/instruments are illicit.

I’ll just start with this ONE. Please explain how “contemporary” music and musical instruments are illicit? Were pipe organs and Gregorian Chant around in 100 AD?

Please cite specific Church teaching in your answer, unless you were simply stating personal opinion.

 

[latinmasslover]

It would seem that self-righteous ignorance of Catholic Liturgy goes both ways.

It is really sad, to see so many posters here, who apparently can not attend a NO/OF Mass, without being on constant patrol, looking for “abuses”, “liberties”, or “misinterpretions” in their minds.

Again, the NO/OF Mass is perfectly valid, whether the music is played on the piano, organ, or guitar. It is perfectly valid, in Spanish, English, or Life Teen format.

:banghead:

I find the NOlovers to be more self-righteous than the TLMlovers:

“If you were a better Catholic, like us obedient ones, you wouldn’t notice the abuses, or you’d just turn a deaf ear to them and focus on Jesus.”

Nobody has to patrol the Mass looking for abuses. When one knows what the Mass is, and is paying attention to what is going on, it’s impossible *not *to notice. Guitars and drums don’t really add to a solemn and reverent atmosphere. Looking towards the altar, as we should, it’s impossible to not notice the 10 EOEMHC. When going to receive Holy Communion we’re to do what? A dinky little bow of the head? What reverence! It’s so obvious that the understanding of Who we receive has improved. Not.
And of course the vernacular doesn’t affect the validity, but then again, who really thinks the the Church should become the “holy Babel?” The Church gave us missals for a reason, they were meant to be used.