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lovesMary
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Bowing the head is considered a sign of respect throughout the world. I wouldn’t write people off so quickly who don’t express respect in the same way as yourself, latinmasslover.
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latinmasslover
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We are to bend one knee when passing the Tabernacle, drop to two knees when passing the exposed Eucharist, and we used to receive Holy Communion kneeling, as is proper. Now we are to show more reverence when passing the Tabernacle than when we receive the Lord? Does this really make any sense? The Japanese do more than this for regular, sinful mortals.
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GerardP
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No problem at all. Misunderstandings can happen all the time. Debates are good things even when a little heat is generated. (At least no one can reasonably accuse us of a lack of zeal! )
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HOPEFUL_IN_UK
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There are places where belching and smacking your lips during a meal is a complement to the chef. If you bow your head reverently, you are showing reverence. God sees what is in your heart. The gestures are really for your own benefit. For that reason, I think that kneeling at the communion rail is good: it reinforces our own belief in the Sacrament. But, it has no effect on the Sacrament, itself.
What if somebody else wants to crawl up to communion on their belly? Is that more reverent? It might be. Is that practical? Probably not.
Come to think of it… if you want to get really into the history of courtly behavior, it’s also considered disrespectful to turn around and walk away from the King. Should we all back away from communion, bowing as we go?
What if somebody else wants to crawl up to communion on their belly? Is that more reverent? It might be. Is that practical? Probably not.
Come to think of it… if you want to get really into the history of courtly behavior, it’s also considered disrespectful to turn around and walk away from the King. Should we all back away from communion, bowing as we go?
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latinmasslover
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It is also a sign to nonCatholics that we believe that the Eucharist is truly God. I bow of the head looks like nothing more then a solemn (maybe) nod, something used very casually.
Crawling on one’s gut like a serpant reverent? I highly doubt that.
Well, considering that Jesus is present with us as we go back to the pew after receiving, we’re not really turning out back on Him. Then we kneel in worship for the 30 seconds that we have before the choir asks us to join in the next communion song.
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latinmass
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In the GIRM under Importance of Singing, item #41 in my edition. Also Pope Benedict on Sacred Music: Registrant WHOIS contact information verification | Namecheap.comI’ll just start with this ONE. Please explain how “contemporary” music and musical instruments are illicit? Were pipe organs and Gregorian Chant around in 100 AD?
Please cite specific Church teaching in your answer, unless you were simply stating personal opinion.
I try my best not to have personal opinion, but to be obediant to what I am instructed to do. These seem to indicate that any instrument or music that would go against the sacred tone of the Mass should not be used. Without a doubt Gregorian Chant and Latin is the ideal to be used from this Church instruction. Why not use the ideal? Why take a chance on using anything but what is ideal for our Lord, if this is hazy to you? As I looked this up in the GIRM I ran across The Rite of Peace item #82 which is most often done illicitly too with many people running around slapping each other on the back as a social affair. Thanks for the question.
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pnewton
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“Not ideal” does not equate to illicit. I think that is why your statement was called into question. But there are whole threads just on liturgical music.
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latinmass
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Music that is not in line with sacredness of the Mass IS illicit. Using Gregorian Chant is licit is the point. Why take a chance on using something else when we know for sure what is licit. Rock music IS illicit for sure. When people check these things out for themselves, maybe there minds will be changed.
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lovesMary
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My point is, what is a reverant expression for yourself might differ for someone else. You seem to be making rash judgements about the hearts of others based on your visual observations of them.
I agree with you, and I do kneel as you describe, yet does that mean that I can judge the heart of another based on their compliance with my ideal of the proper way to show deferance to our Lord?
Your conclusions that you have publicly written on this forum regarding others is read by many. Remember, Jesus also instructed us to avoid doing actions to be noticed, but to focus on our relationship with God outside of the view of others. We Christians were taught not to be like the hypocrites, who pray in public so they will be noticed. Yes, they have their reward, Jesus said. That reward is that they are noticed by men and acclaimed by them.
But we, instead, are to pray in secret and our Heavenly Father will thus reward us.
I think that we can safely interpret this to mean that Jesus wanted to de-emphasize outward signs that were so in favour with the hypocrital Jews of the time. Instead, we are to focus on our inner journey and orientation, of which the outward is only an expression.
So, while reverant behaviour in church is important, it should not be such a focus for us, and we certainly should refrain from scrutinizing others and making rash judgements based solely on their ettiquette in church.
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pnewton
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No disagreement on that. Rock music, illicit; gregorian chant, licit.
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iona_scribe
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Thanks for the resources! It’s really interesting to get a lawyer’s perspective on the language of SC, and it does a lot to explain how things went from point A to point B.
I still stand by SC, but I can definitely sense the political tensions that pull various statements in two directions. I’m hoping that Benedict will guide us back to the more conservative interpretation. The parochial vicar who says Mass at my parish pretty regularly has very, very slowly been introducing more Latin into the liturgy. My husband and I are wondering if he’s possibly trying to prepare us for something
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Brother_John
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Again, please give specific (Not General) Church teachings to substantiate this claim?
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Brother_John
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Brother_John
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Eilish_Maura
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Yes it is interesting to get a very biased lawyer’s perspective on the SC - but should anyone buy into his bias and his manipulative skill (manipulative as many lawyers are when trying to bring folks to see their side).
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latinmasslover
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Not on the person doing it, on the bishops responsible for taking us from kneeling to a nod of the head.
He was condemning the mentality, the showing off of devotion so that others would think them holy. He said that our works are to be public so that others see and give praise to the Father. Kneeling for Holy Communion was a sign to all who witnessed that this is God, not a piece of memorial bread.
Personally, I couldn’t care less what others do, reverent or not; that’s between them and God. My concern is for those who are not Catholic, or not strong in faith. What they see can be the difference between coming into/staying in the Church.
There was a story of a Protestant woman who hid in the Church to see if the priest believed what he taught about the Eucharist. He thought he was alone, and after straightening the Sanctuary, before he left, he genuflected. Witnessing this, she came to him wanting to enter the Church. The priest was a Saint (Alphonsus Ligouri
). This is the main reason I, and I’m sure others, make a big deal about outward reverence. Living the life of a good Christian and all that entails are a part of it, obviously, but I think that the bishops permitting outward reverence to lower to a minimum is rather…how do I put this nicely…irresponsible. Just my thoughts.
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latinmasslover
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Please tell me you’re playing the devil’s advocate?!?!
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latinmasslover
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Isn’t that the pot calling the kettle black.
Every time you resort to personal attacks you diminish the effect of your argument. Just an FYI. Not every comment requires a hateful opinion.
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Deacon_Ed_B
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Latinmasslover, Why do you not answer Brother John’s and others questions about your source as to what is and is not licit.
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Brother_John
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Not at all. I’ve attended two Life Teen Masses recently. I don’t know if the music they use is exactly “rock”, but it is guitar/piano/drum.
Not much to my taste, I’d personally prefer “Alleluia, Sing to Jesus”, or “Holy God We Praise thy Name”.
However it is not for me to declare it illicit.
Those persons are offering songs of praise and worship to Almighty God in the Mass. Who am I to say they are illicit, lacking specific documentation of Church teaching to that effect?
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