Has anyone changed there mind here?

[Aragorn1]

If I were to go over to Litugy and Sacraments and start a thread titled RED, and the text of my post said simply, “what do you think”, I would be ignored or someone would ask what I meant.

If my text said " I’m a traditionalist and I say RED ! " I would be attacked with passion. Just because of the word traditionalist.

Even if this were true then it is not unique to traditionalists. An adherent of any other religion or sect could say the same. And the same of course applies to any other Catholics. If I were to go to a traditionalist forum and announce that “I am a ‘neo-Catholic’ and I say RED!” then according to your reasoning I would get blasted too.

But I would be wrong for expecting to be attacked solely for calling myself a “neo-Catholic” (a term which I despise, by the way). Similarly, you are wrong for expecting to be attacked solely for being a traditionalist.

The problem is that what you said is misleading, as you never define what “RED” is. In fact whether you are “attacked” on a forums depends on that very definition and not on how you identify yourself. For example, you could say something totally irrelevant like “I am a traditionalist and I like chocolate ice cream!” Most people would kindly ask you to remove your discussion of dessert to some place more appropriate. They would also wonder what being a traditionalist has to do with flavors of ice cream. Or you could say “I am a traditionalist and I say the Pope is a good and holy man!” in which case most would agree and commend your admission of this as a traditionalist.

However, you could also say “I am a traditionalist and I say the Novus Ordo Mass is invalid!” In this case you would be attacked by those defending the NO, and rightly so. But you could also drop the “I am a traditionalist”, and you would still be attacked, and not merely because people may infer from your claim that you are a traditionalist. Catholics have the tendency - and the right - to stand up for the validity of the Mass regardless of who is disputing that validity. Either way you word the title of your thread, you will likely be attacked. So whether or not you can rightly expect to be attacked depends not on your identification of yourself but on the definition of “RED”, which you have conveniently left out of your post. As it is, your claim that you would be attacked just for being a traditionalist is not based on reason or truth, but is sheer propaganda designed to elicit pity for traditionalists and their movement (“those poor traditionalists, they get attacked wherever they go!”)

 

[Eilish_Maura]

Isn’t that the pot calling the kettle black.

Every time you resort to personal attacks you diminish the effect of your argument. Just an FYI. Not every comment requires a hateful opinion.

What personal attack???
What ‘pot calling the kettle black’?

The author of the blog has a picture he uses to portray the OF that is IN NO WAY appropriate – as if this is how they all are.

It shows how low a lawyer can go to ‘win’ people over to his/her side - playing on emotional response and fears rather than using facts.

The picture alone is reason enough not bother with that blog - the text does little to redeem it.

 

[latinmasslover]

Latinmasslover, Why do you not answer Brother John’s and others questions about your source as to what is and is not licit.
Deacon Ed B

I’ve not said much about the music as it’s not on my priority list of abuses at this time.

You were referring to the music debate going on, yes?

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

latinmass, Yes & You still have not answered the questions.
Deacon Ed B

 

[Aragorn1]

Yes it is interesting to get a very biased lawyer’s perspective on the SC - but should anyone buy into his bias and his manipulative skill (manipulative as many lawyers are when trying to bring folks to see their side).

It’s funny you should mention Ferrara and his tendency to use manipulative rhetoric. I mentioned his use of the derogatory label “neo-Catholic” a while back on this thread. I recently read this and its sequels. You might want to check it out.

 

[Eilish_Maura]

I’ve not said much about the music as it’s not on my priority list of abuses at this time.

You were referring to the music debate going on, yes?

Deacon and BrJohn have simply asked you to clarify something about what you have actually posted - not what is or is not on your ‘priority list of abuses’ at this (or any) time.

 

[latinmasslover]

Not at all. I’ve attended two Life Teen Masses recently. I don’t know if the music they use is exactly “rock”, but it is guitar/piano/drum.

Not much to my taste, I’d personally prefer “Alleluia, Sing to Jesus”, or “Holy God We Praise thy Name”.

However it is not for me to declare it illicit.

Those persons are offering songs of praise and worship to Almighty God in the Mass. Who am I to say they are illicit, lacking specific documentation of Church teaching to that effect?

Until the documents are brought up, look at it this way:
Why should we have rock music during Mass? Play the Passion of the Christ, and during the Crucifixtion mute it and play Christian rock. Does it emphasize what the Blessed Virgin and SS John and Magdalene were likely feeling while He hung and died?

Just my feelings on it. I did read something by the Pope when he was Cardinal regarding music during the Mass. If I come across it I’ll post.

 

[latinmasslover]

What personal attack???
What ‘pot calling the kettle black’?

The author of the blog has a picture he uses to portray the OF that is IN NO WAY appropriate – as if this is how they all are.

It shows how low a lawyer can go to ‘win’ people over to his/her side - playing on emotional response and fears rather than using facts.

The picture alone is reason enough not bother with that blog - the text does little to redeem it.

Well, how many TLMs do we see with that sort of abuse? That was probably the point he was trying to make, that these abuses happen frequently, to one degree or another, in the NO, but how often in the TLM? I’m not a mind reader though, I could be wrong.

 

[latinmasslover]

latinmass, Yes & You still have not answered the questions.
Deacon Ed B

Which ones exactly would you like me to answer? Many questions are going back and forth, please specify.

 

[latinmass]

Again, please give specific (Not General) Church teachings to substantiate this claim?

Is the GIRM and what Pope Benedict wrote on Sacred Music general?

 

[latinmasslover]

Deacon and BrJohn have simply asked you to clarify something about what you have actually posted - not what is or is not on your ‘priority list of abuses’ at this (or any) time.

Which issue needs clarification? I stayed out of the music area, till just a couple minutes ago, because it’s not a priority for me, so I haven’t studied it, and therefore I’m not suited to discuss it in any detail.

 

[Eilish_Maura]

Well, how many TLMs do we see with that sort of abuse? That was probably the point he was trying to make, that these abuses happen frequently, to one degree or another, in the NO, but how often in the TLM? I’m not a mind reader though, I could be wrong.

He did not list the picture as being some form of abuse one MIGHT see – he listed it as being the OF (as opposed to his picture of the TLM).

That sets a very biased and tone - and one does not have to be a mind reader to see the scam he is trying to play on people.

Regarding another part of your post – what is up with the ‘pot calling the kettle black’ comment???

 

[Eilish_Maura]

Which issue needs clarification? I stayed out of the music area, till just a couple minutes ago, because it’s not a priority for me, so I haven’t studied it, and therefore I’m not suited to discuss it in any detail.

BrJohn has been clear in his request for clarification.

 

[elt1956]

Thank you. You are absolutely correct. Latin does NOTHING for me. And I have no problem lifting my eyes to God in a Mass with rock music, English, and waving to other people around me. I am very pleased that the Catholic Church has APPROVED of Mass in the vernacular, along with the music of the people, and the Sign of Peace.

Hello Cat. I’m not asking this to be judgemental, just curious, okay? Nor am I saying either form of Mass, the New or the Latin Mass is better than the other, but have you attended Latin Masses very often? They are quite beautiful. I suppose one reason I think that is that I grew up with ONLY the Latin Mass. The Majesty and Dignity of the Latin Mass is what I love and miss. Again, as stated in the previous post by zerocrossing.

 

[Aragorn1]

Well, how many TLMs do we see with that sort of abuse? That was probably the point he was trying to make, that these abuses happen frequently, to one degree or another, in the NO, but how often in the TLM? I’m not a mind reader though, I could be wrong.

The point is not whether or not abuses occur. They do, and they must be stopped, but they do not affect the legitimacy of the OF Mass in itself, as it was promulgated by the Church. It is incumbent upon to traditionalists to prove that there is something wrong with the Mass itself, not with how it has been implemented. This is the direction the discussion must take.

About the pictures, Eilish Maura objected to Ferrara’s use of a picture to illustrate deceptively what OF Masses “are really like”. The use of pictures is misleading, and should never be used (or used at least sparingly and properly) by any qualified apologist to prove or support his point. This is because photographs can be taken out of context far more easily than can texts, and there is no way to provide that context (except with something like a video). Conspiracy theorists use manipulative photos; sensationalistic writers of any kind use manipulative photos; qualified scholars do not. Given that Ferrara has engaged in conspiratorial thinking (the whole Grunerite Fatima coverup thing, which I myself used to swallow until I came to my senses), where does that place him?

 

[latinmasslover]

BrJohn has been clear in his request for clarification.

Is this still just regarding the music? I posted my opinion on the matter (see #345). Like I said, this isn’t as big a deal for me as other abuses so I can’t say much more than what I did in that post.

Regarding the pot and kettle: you were referring to him as biased. Some of your posts in the *past *have been rather argumentative just because the person was a traditionalist…that’s how it seemed to me, since the issue was sometimes very innocent and a debate not necessary. Tones are often misread online, so it’s possible these were nothing more than mix-ups; that was just how I happened to have read it. If I misjudged, I apologize.

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

Latinmass, we already know what your opinions are. Those, as much as you might like to think so, are not references as to what music is and is not licit. Again, your sources please. No answer, will indicate you do not have any, and that will tell us all we need to know.
Deacon Ed B

 

[iona_scribe]

Yes it is interesting to get a very biased lawyer’s perspective on the SC - but should anyone buy into his bias and his manipulative skill (manipulative as many lawyers are when trying to bring folks to see their side).

I know this all too well, my old roommate was a lawyer

For now, I’m just trying to read things from all sides and weigh the evidence before I become completely convinced of anything. I’m just relieved that wherever I land in this, I’m Catholic at the end of the day. Before that, I felt like I was going around in theological circles without the teaching authority of the Church.

 

[latinmass]

Latinmass, we already know what your opinions are. Those, as much as you might like to think so, are not references as to what music is and is not licit. Again, your sources please. No answer, will indicate you do not have any, and that will tell us all we need to know.
Deacon Ed B

I must be missing something. I cited the GIRM and Pope Benedict on Sacred Music with the web site listed above. These seem clear to me. If not to you, I would ask what can you reference to show that rock music is licit. Some may be confusing me with latinmasslover.

 

[MrS]

BrJohn has been clear in his request for clarification.

wow… EM found a post that did not get answered and now has something to post about… again and again. And it is not even your question.

Seems I remember EM making a comment to which I asked a related short and direct question… and repeated the question a few times… still waiting EM.