Has anyone changed there mind here?

[Aragorn1]

The most beautiful music in the world is" the stuff of horror movies?" You are in my prayers

Though I expressed my opinion on having rock music during Mass above, I take issue with your ostentatiously “objective” declaration that chant is “the most beautiful music in the world” and your subsequent resolution to pray that the previous poster will change his mind on a subjective issue. Can we please get back to objective reality here and stop quibbling about whose music is more beautiful?

 

[Eilish_Maura]

Though I expressed my opinion on having rock music during Mass above, I take issue with your ostentatiously “objective” declaration that chant is “the most beautiful music in the world” and your subsequent resolution to pray that the previous poster will change his mind on a subjective issue. Can we please get back to objective reality here and stop quibbling about whose music is more beautiful?

:heaven: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :heaven:

 

[Cat]

Though I expressed my opinion on having rock music during Mass above, I take issue with your ostentatiously “objective” declaration that chant is “the most beautiful music in the world” and your subsequent resolution to pray that the previous poster will change his mind on a subjective issue. Can we please get back to objective reality here and stop quibbling about whose music is more beautiful?

Cat is a 50 year-old woman, thank you.

And I appreciate your comments about music and the Church.

I think that the song “The Victor” is one of the best of the Jesus rock songs, and it brings me to tears. When I heard it today, I FINALLY felt like it is really Lent! (This has not been a good Lent for me at all.)

I appreciate any prayers, stmaria.

BTW, for those who are interested, the “inventor” of Jesus rock–Larry Norman–passed away a few weeks ago. I saw him in person twice and was profoundly influenced both times. We drove several hours to take our teenaged daughters to see him several years ago, and both of them were touched by his ministry and music. Probably his most famous song is “I Wish We’d All Been Ready.” Another really famous song is “Sweet Sweet Song of Salvation.” Here is a link to his website with information about his life and death: larrynorman.com/

Pray for him.

 

[pnewton]

Cat is a 50 year-old woman, thank you.

Petra-aged. Now that is some music I still enjoy.

 

[lovesMary]

I find chant extremely conducive to a meditative prayer experience, but I don’t consider it musically the most pleasing. I do enjoy classical religious music quite a lot, such as Mozart, Bach, Mendleson, etc. These artists were commissioned by the Church during the cultural heights in Europe. They are a great part of our religious cultural history. Mozart’s Requiem comes to mind.

Classical music is particularly sublime in all expressions, religious or otherwise. I am a musician myself, and also have my personal preferances.

 

[MrS]

I find chant extremely conducive to a meditative prayer experience, but I don’t consider it musically the most pleasing. I do enjoy classical religious music quite a lot, such as Mozart, Bach, Mendleson, etc. These artists were commissioned by the Church during the cultural heights in Europe. They are a great part of our religious cultural history. Mozart’s Requiem comes to mind.

Classical music is particularly sublime in all expressions, religious or otherwise. I am a musician myself, and also have my personal preferances.

I think that is a pretty darn good observation.

If carried to the next step, we might ask why we are at Mass…

for a meditative prayer to experience the Real Presence and make Him the focal point of the litergy ,

or to be personally pleased.

Hhmmmm.

 

[ProVobis]

“I hope to be invited into the Kingdom of Heaven when my life here is over, period. And, I don’t believe that declaring someone’s choice of music or language to be illicit, indult, insult, or whatever, to be part of that journey.”

So noted. But do realize that your choice of music may indeed be sinful for others. And it’s not necessarily about lyrics either.

On Sundays I pass by worship places where people throw their arms up into the air as they walk into their churches. As long as their worship is sincere, I say more power to them. But when I see Catholics almost going out of their way to try to get the better of one another, then I have to say “Time out” and let’s try to clean house here. Sin is sin and Vatican II didn’t change that. The Vatican has been more than kind in finding accommodating liturgies, vernacular, participation, allowance of receiving, but that doesn’t mean some spirituality is not in order. In fact, Paul VI allowed meat on Fridays so as to appeal to the higher spirituality of Catholics, that they should abstain for the love of God and not because it’s a sin. Yet, how many Catholics deliberately order meat in front of other traditional Catholics on Fridays just to show them up. Isn’t that what some of the liberals are doing on this board as well? Not a good sign of a mature Catholic in my opinion. And if it comes down to licitness of one type of music over another, then I have to side with latinmass and call shoving tasteless and inappropriate music down other Catholic worshippers as illicit as well, even if there is no official word from Rome or your diocese about it.

 

[Aragorn1]

Cat is a 50 year-old woman, thank you.

Sorry! I usually use the masculine form by default when I’m not sure (“he/she” is cumbersome and “they” is gramatically incorrect).

Paul VI allowed meat on Fridays so as to appeal to the higher spirituality of Catholics, that they should abstain for the love of God and not because it’s a sin.

Interesting observation, and one I’ve unfortunately never heard. The only version of why he did this that I’ve ever heard was from the traditionalist perspective (i.e., he did it to “relax the rules” and make life “softer” in conformity with a “liberal” and “modernist” way of living).

Yet, how many Catholics deliberately order meat in front of other traditional Catholics on Fridays just to show them up

In my experience none. But I must ask where are you getting this from? Is this based on your own experience? Because it isn’t based on mine. I think it’s best not to generalize, if you ask me; especially when it’s impossible to produce statistics or other such evidence.

 

[elt1956]

Here is a surprise for everyone. Those who prefer the Novus Ordo Mass over the Latin Mass are just as traditional in their Catholicism as those who prefer the Latin Mass. Each is infinite in merit. Its in what is in the congregations heart that determines how much grace is imparted to them.
Deacon Ed B

Amen! Amen! Amen!

 

[Aragorn1]

This reminds be of Scott Hahn’s first Mass… even as he sat in the back and observed and listened to the scriptures and saw the awe of the liturgy.

It’s funny you should mention that… As you know the Mass he attended was Novus Ordo.

The best advice I ever heard Mother Angelica say on television was to real older books. She said she didn’t trust any book that was written less than 40 (now probably 50) years ago. Of course, that probably didn’t make Scott Hahn feel good since he was sitting right next to her plugging his latest book.

Well of course we should read old books, but not necessarily to the exclusion of new books. Even Karl Keating, whom traditionalists consider a “neo-Catholic”, expressed his opinion that if one were faced with a choice between reading the new books and the old then one should choose the old (in What Catholics Really Believe, sorry I can’t find the page number). Fortunately we are faced with no such choice, and while we have to be wary about stuff written by the likes of Fr. McBrien and such, with the guidance of the Church we certainly can read those books which are orthodox and carry Church approval.

Ironically, censoring all books written after Vatican II would result in the complete elimination of everything ever published by the traditionalists. (And don’t say that this applies only to books that are unorthodox, as the traditionalists themselves are the sole arbiters of what is and isn’t orthodox in their eyes, when in reality the only fair and objective standard is the Church.) That would also apply to everything ever written by Mother Angelica, if your information on what she said is correct. But I find it doubtful that she would make such a sweeping claim about everything written since the 1960’s. Surely she must have qualified her statement?

“Brought home?” Home is Heaven. Despite Scott Hahn’s “Rome is Home” stuff, we are on a pilgrimage through a valley of tears. The Church is Noah’s Ark outside of which no one can survive the deluge.

Come on Gerard, you know you’re butchering the context here. Both Hahn and Brother John are speaking of Rome being home in the context of truth, not final eternal destiny. Hahn was a Protestant for years, struggling to find the truth by applying the principle of Sola Scriptura. After a lifetime of living in a house built on sand he found the Rock of Peter. That’s what he meant by Rome being “home”. Surely, being a Scripture scholar and a theologian, he is aware of the parallelism between Noah’s Ark and the Church. He also knows that heaven is our true home. And Brother John seems so be speaking in the same way.

I notice that, for the second time in only a few hours, you for some reason need to make yourself feel better by picking on Scott Hahn. But your contemptuous references (one of them grossly misapplied) to a well-respected apologist/convert, far from supporting your case, only serve to make you look foolish.

 

[elt1956]

I have similar feelings.

What’s sad is that there are plenty of perfectly reasonable, loyal, obedient Catholics who have a preference or liking for the EF, but nobody hears their voices. They only hear the loud, strident voices.

Personally, the loud strident voices completely turn me off, to the posters, that is.

 

[elt1956]

Yes, I’ve come to love the TLM. I’m a revert who joined CA a few months before I actually went to confession and came home.

My first reaction to this forum was "when did it become ok for catholics to question Rome ? " I thought I’d stumbled upon the “renegade catholics” forum.

Then after reading the posts of some of the more informed members here, I realized that there was more to it than just a bunch of older folks that rejected the new Mass nit picking.

The liberals are the renegades. And though I put my soul in peril by turning my back on catholicism around the age of 15, I can honestly say I feel fortunate to have eliminated any possibility of becoming jaded and influenced by liberal contemporary catholics by doing so.

I don’t judge them. I can’t fault them for embracing the catholicism of VII. It’s what they were taught.

But the traditionalists have won me over. Their aguments for the preservation of the Catholicism of Blessed Pius V are rock solid.
There are members of the Curia that share our concerns.

If not for this forum, I’d have joined the nearest parish, which from what I saw at the Mass I attended there, is as liberal as it gets.
But I can’t stand in judgement of them. The Mass I attended was a celebration of our Archbishop’s 25 years of service. He was there, so he must not have minded the tambourine, guitar, keyboard, … etc.

Even if I had joined the parish before I joined CA, I’d have left it by now. I’m still a member of an NO parish, but as much as I love the Dominican Friars who run it, I’m probably going to wind up leaving it for a local diocean parish that offers both the Novus Ordo and the Forma Extraordinaria.

So yes, this forum has changed my mind.

OLDER FOLKS?? OLDER FOLKS??? Gasp! Don’t put us all in one basket Kiddo. I am one of those “older” beings having grown up in the 40s and 50s when there was only the Latin Mass. The more I read about “some” of the posts regarding it on this forum, the more I am beginning to miss it. It was such a big part of my childhood and impressions interalized in childhood never leave. After Vatican II, I adapted to the NO and have attended that form of the Mass since the 60s. Would I want a steady diet of the Latin Mass?? I don’t think so. But I would really like to see both forms, the NO and the Latin Mass available. Peace.

 

[I_Believe]

Hey everyone, how’s the Inquisition going ?

 

[Aragorn1]

HOPEFUL_IN_UK;3410742:

I have similar feelings.

What’s sad is that there are plenty of perfectly reasonable, loyal, obedient Catholics who have a preference or liking for the EF, but nobody hears their voices. They only hear the loud, strident voices.

Personally, the loud strident voices completely turn me off, to the posters, that is.

I am one of those “loyal, obedient Catholics who have a preference or liking for the EF”, as I’ve stated on this thread a few times already. But I deny absolutely that the OF is “deficient” or in any way “objectively inferior” to the EF. Many traditionalists seem to confuse defense of the OF with an imaginary hatred of the EF, but although there have been some on here who expressed their dislike of the EF, they in no way oppose it or call it deficient and objectively inferior. This is in true conformity with the principle laid down in Summorum Pontificum, namely, that both are really two forms of one and the same rite). Besides, to my knowledge those who positively dislike the EF remain in the minority.

 

[Aragorn1]

Hey everyone, how’s the Inquisition going ?

Huh?

 

[elt1956]

I just wish that there was some way for those of us who are fairly new to the Church to KNOW on this board who exactly people really are and what they are really espousing so that we won’t be tricked.

After my experiences in the evangelical world (we were kicked out of our Protestant church by pastors claiming that they were following the Bible), I am extremely distrustful of people. I am absolutely paranoid about being led astray in this huge Church of Christ.

Some people are just plain nasty and mean. I don’t care if these people are straight and narrow orthodox Catholics and are teaching exactly what Jesus wants taught–the fact remains that Jesus said that those who don’t have love are NOTHING. He said that we will know His followers by their love for one another. People who call names and use snide sarcasm to insult others are NOT showing tough love, they are showing pride of self and hatred, and to me, THIS is good reason to utterly dismiss anything these people post. No love = no Jesus.

Some people are just the opposite–kind and sweet. But their words seem dangerous. They talk of things that make me squirm. One person on this forum told me that it is the duty of all Catholics to disobey even the Pope when he espouses something that is contrary to the traditions of the Catholic Church, and that the NO Mass is contrary to the traditions of the Catholic Church, therefore, all those popes who have endorsed this form of Mass should be disobeyed.

That made my radar go up. I think it’s wrong teaching.

But she sounded so nice.

Like I said, I wish that there were “police” on this Board who would step in and make it clear when someone is totally out of step with the teaching of the Catholic Church. I don’t always recognize the schismatics, the sedavants-whatevers (can’t spell it), the heretics, the troublemakers, the Protestants who are pretending to be Catholic, etc.

I wish we were asked (not required) to take a survey when we join CAF, and the results would place us in a category, which would be posted next to our names. The survey would be available for all members to check to refresh their memories.

I’ve taken “Catholic Surveys” before that place me in the “Traditional Orthodox” category–YES, me, Cat! Even though I answer the questions about TLM in the negative, I still get placed in the Traditional/Orthodox category because of my understanding and acceptance of Catholic teachings.

So I know that such a survey would be possible, and it would do all of us a big favor to KNOW that Cat is “Traditional/Orthodox,” and someone else is “Schismatic” or “Modernist” or “Neo-Pagan” or “Protestant” etc. etc. As long as we could check out the survey and see what the labels meant, it would be OK.

And it would sure help us to filter the comments correctly and not be led astray.

H

Hello Cat. I understand your quandary. I have been Catholic all my life, but have never really “studied” the doctrines and traditions of the Church until now. I don’t know where some people get the idea they can over-ride what the Pope has said when he proclaims a doctrine as infallible. I don’t understand either how some people can “excommunicate” a Pope because he has changed the rituals or form of the Mass. The Mass itself consists of the Consecration of the Host and Communion. Without this, there can be no Mass. It is as simple as that. Whether the Mass is said in Latin, giving it perhaps a different aspect than one said in English, or Spanish, or French, or any other language, it is still the Mass as long as there is the Consecration of the host and Communion. Read, read, read and then read some more.

 

[elt1956]

Many people feel that it is Protestant Churches that try to put on an entertaining show, Las Vegas style.

Okay, here we go again. Hug and make up folks. We’re all trying to reach the same place.

 

[I_Believe]

OLDER FOLKS?? OLDER FOLKS??? Gasp! Don’t put us all in one basket Kiddo. I am one of those “older” beings having grown up in the 40s and 50s when there was only the Latin Mass. The more I read about “some” of the posts regarding it on this forum, the more I am beginning to miss it. It was such a big part of my childhood and impressions interalized in childhood never leave. After Vatican II, I adapted to the NO and have attended that form of the Mass since the 60s. Would I want a steady diet of the Latin Mass?? I don’t think so. But I would really like to see both forms, the NO and the Latin Mass available. Peace.

Hi elt, we posted at the same time 12:12. Weird, I thought I’d been forgotten since I was excommunicated a few pages back by one of our contributors lol.

Well, anyway you are one of the treasures of the Church. What I call a Cradle Traditional Catholic, meaning one who reached adulthood before VII.

I assume you went to a parochial school ? I’ve got a couple of photos of my father’s classroom. About 1940 I’d guess. There is a Infant of Prague shrine in the room, and a fairly large Crucifix.
Clean cut little rascals. Boys on one side of the room. Girls on the other. Sound familiar ?

I was born in 1958. I really couldn’t tell you what Mass I received my first communion at. TLM ? 65 hybrid prototype ? Who knows. Mom and dad are gone, God Bless them, so I can’t ask. I never found photos either. I do remember 5th or 6th grade, the nun who taught music brought someone in, another nun I think, and she taught us Blowin in the Wind and a couple of folk songs. I barely remember a few guitar Masses.

By the time the NO came, my hormones were racing around, and I decided to put my soul in peril for 35 years. I stopped going to Mass. I’m not blaming it on our pastor, but he had a habit of pounding on the pulpit demanding we put more money in the collection basket. That was a big turn off to me. He always drove a new lincoln, so… who knows. I never heard any of the adult parishioners say one bad word about him.

But I came back to the Church a little over a year ago. I was kind of confused after coming upon this forum. I had no idea.

I’ve never attended a non diocean Mass, and won’t. But I admire the level of devotion these Catholics display. The Church needs more like them. They need the Church, and need to come back. The points have been made. The Mass they treasure is freed now.
Time to defend Traditional Cathloicism from within the Church.

I’m a member of an NO parish, and have come to see the NO as a valid liturgy. The cell phones, football jerseys, and chit chat between teens during the Gospel make it tough to deal with attending a Sunday NO, but the weekday faithful are very comfortable to pray with.

I prefer the TLM on Sunday. I prefer it anytime, and would attend 7days a week if possible. I get teary eyed at the TLM. I walk out of the NO humbled and inspired to be a better Catholic. I walk out of the TLM feeling as though I’ve got a hard road ahead. Just to get to Purgatory, let alone Heaven. Hard to explain.

Now that both forms of the Mass are available, there really is no sense in arguing in favor of one or the other. How far we take our spirituality as Catholics is up to us.

Take care

 

[I_Believe]

I’ve never attended a Latin Mass. I’ve seen bits and pieces on TV when I’ve stayed in a hotel and had access to cable (EWTN).

I have no interest in attending the one that is less than two miles from my house. NO interest whatsoever.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I don’t consider any language as beautiful as my own heart language, English. I took Latin in high school and disliked it. I absolutely hate the idea of referring to a missal to translate the various prayers. To me, this puts a barrier between me and the Lord. JMO.

I consider chant “spooky” music, the stuff of horror movies. I disagree strongly that it expresses the feelings of the Blessed Virgin as she watched her Son die on the cross. Personally, I think a really tough metal rock song would be more likely to express her anquish and grief. I can’t imagine her standing there chanting or singing polyphonic hymns. JMO, though.

I agree with whoever said earlier that TLM is “theatrical.” JMO.

I am very glad that it is available for those who feel more comfortable. I think that for historical purposes, it should be kept. JMO.

But I am even more glad that the Church has decreed that the NO Mass, in the vernacular, set with the music and instruments of the culture-is valid and licit for the Catholic faithful.

I am becoming more and more upset and angry reading the posts from those of you who insist that the NO is full of abuses, and making untrue claims that rock music is illicit or irreverent or inappropriate. Not according to MY bishop. And remember, this is the same bishop who has maintained the TLM in his diocese.

"

Cat, I’m not at all attacking you personally, but frankly, it wreaks of liberalism.
“…the music and instruments of the culture”. ??

Do you feel culture and society should influence liturgy and doctrine ?

Chant is “spooky” and HMC has gotten it all wrong for centuries ?

"If I hated my Mass as much as some of you hate yours, I would seriously consider becoming Protestant and starting my own church and doing things perfectly, the way I like them. " ?

You mean like Luther ? Do you really mean that ?
Gal, one of these days you’ve got to accept that you are a Catholic now and check your protestant isms at the door.

I’m sorry, but you are attacking things undeniably Catholic.

Heavy Metal to replace Chant ? I suppose it may work well in a Black Mass lol.

Don’t even reply. Put me on your ignore list or something.
Mercy.

 

[elt1956]

Cat, I’m not at all attacking you personally, but frankly, it wreaks of liberalism.
“…the music and instruments of the culture”. ??

Do you feel culture and society should influence liturgy and doctrine ?

Chant is “spooky” and HMC has gotten it all wrong for centuries ?

"If I hated my Mass as much as some of you hate yours, I would seriously consider becoming Protestant and starting my own church and doing things perfectly, the way I like them. " ?

You mean like Luther ? Do you really mean that ?
Gal, one of these days you’ve got to accept that you are a Catholic now and check your protestant isms at the door.

I’m sorry, but you are attacking things undeniably Catholic.

Heavy Metal to replace Chant ? I suppose it may work well in a Black Mass lol.

Don’t even reply. Put me on your ignore list or something.
Mercy.

Okay, I believe. I guess you will have to put me on your non reply list too. I can see what CAT is saying, :yup: I am especially interested in what you said in regard to the bearing various cultures would have on the delivery of the Mass. The culture of the people celebrating Mass is what makes it so unique. Whether said in Latin, French…it is still the Mass. Reverence is in the eye, or should I say heart, of the beholder. To me there is beauty in a reverent hymn being played on a Spanish guitar at Mass. There is lovliness in a hymn being sung in Japanese. And yes, there is great beauty in the Gregorian chant, or the Priest saying at the Consecration of the Host “Hoc est enim corpus meum” “For this is my body”. I grew up during the time there was “only” the Latin Mass. After Vatican II, I adapted to the New Mass. The important thing, as I have said before to CAT, is that without the Consecration of the Host and Communion we would have no Mass. With it we have all the Mass “absolutely” necessary.Peace.