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Hokomai
Guest
Is there any recorded case in history of a non-believer in God being convinced of God’s existence by any one of the traditional proofs?
Has anyone ever been convinced by the 'proofs' of God's existence?
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tonyrey
Guest
Antony Flew, for one, realised that DNA is evidence for Design.
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Hokomai
Guest
Sorry - that is not a traditional proof. I mean these newadvent.org/summa/1002.htm
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tonyrey
Guest
It is an application of the Fifth Way:
“We see that things which lack intelligence, such as natural bodies, act for an end, and this is evident from their acting always, or nearly always, in the same way, so as to obtain the best result. Hence it is plain that not fortuitously, but designedly, do they achieve their end. Now whatever lacks intelligence cannot move towards an end, unless it be directed by some being endowed with knowledge and intelligence; as the arrow is shot to its mark by the archer. Therefore some intelligent being exists by whom all natural things are directed to their end; and this being we call God.”
The DNA information system is a superb example of natural bodies** which lack intelligence** acting for an end…
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Poof
Guest
I’ve read a conversion story a while back about a former-atheist whose later conversion was sparked by hearing the 5 ways of Aquinas over the car radio, the 5 ways caused him/her (i forgot the guys gender) to look further into his/her beliefs and eventually, he/she converted to Catholicism. (I got this from a “catholic conversion story site” mentioned somewhere in this forum, it is the same site that has a story of James Whites sister’s conversion. I forgot the name of the site, as I read the story over two weeks ago).
Also, we had a talk in school today based on Scott Hahn’s “Reasons to believe”. The speaker was a longtime official at our school who now works in another university and according to him, when he held the same talk over there, two atheists came to him a few weeks later to thank him for making them realize God’s existence. (The 5 ways are tackled in Reasons to believe).
Do I personally know any atheists who were convinced by the 5 ways? No, I don’t
. The Philippines is a very catholic country and I hardly know any atheists. There are two atheists I know off, both former classmates, and I don’t see them going anywhere with in their beliefs. I’d say they’re pretty set on God’s non-existence. Well, I hoped that helped…
Also, we had a talk in school today based on Scott Hahn’s “Reasons to believe”. The speaker was a longtime official at our school who now works in another university and according to him, when he held the same talk over there, two atheists came to him a few weeks later to thank him for making them realize God’s existence. (The 5 ways are tackled in Reasons to believe).
Do I personally know any atheists who were convinced by the 5 ways? No, I don’t
. The Philippines is a very catholic country and I hardly know any atheists. There are two atheists I know off, both former classmates, and I don’t see them going anywhere with in their beliefs. I’d say they’re pretty set on God’s non-existence. Well, I hoped that helped…
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grannymh
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Does a Catholic teenager’s irrational, unreasonable use of some vague recollection of some five non-understandable propositions count when said teenager demanded that God answer if He existed?
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JDaniel
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Hoke:
Me, for one - although I have not stopped looking for others. Does that count?
God bless,
jd
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Bohm_Bawerk
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No.
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Hokomai
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I sense a good story here jd. Can you tell us more? H.
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Trevor_Stamm
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Was he stating the ID argument of irreducible complexity (which isn’t applicable to the fifth way) or the teleological observation of how non-intelligible things act towards an end, or final causes, and show common regularities (this is the fifth way)?
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MindOverMatter2
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tonyrey
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I’m not sure but the outcome is identical…
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JDaniel
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H:
Not really. Just a bland story. Living in Hollywood, FL, I did not wish to travel all the way down to South Miami to go to the University of Miami, so I chose a closer school. That closer school was called, Biscayne College (now, St. Thomas University). BTW, they were and are both 4-year schools!)
It was there, in a philosophy course, studying Aquinas, that I came upon his Five Ways. But, I did not concede to their verisimilitude at that time. I ruminated over them for maybe 8 - 10 years, before coming to pretty much understand them. Once I recognized that they were true, I was compelled and reverted. And, the rest is history, as they say.
(See. I told you you.)
However, as a one-time scientist (biological sciences and medical sciences), I recognized that new things were being discovered every day. So, I think the same holds true of science, metaphysical philosophy and natural philosophy. I want to see where man’s thinking takes him. That’s all.
God bless,
jd
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Bohm_Bawerk
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Theists love to use Anthony Flew as an example, but his conception of God was vastly different from the way Christianity, or indeed even Judaism and Islam, conceives of God. For one, Flew believed that God was evil and God was the source of evil. He also believed that God didn’t intervene in human affairs. He believed in a “Jeffersonian God”, which seems to suggest he may have been a deist. It’s evidently clear from these facts that he can’t be used as the “shining beacon” of contemporary mainstream theism.
For the OP, a significant factor in St. Edith Stein’s conversion was when she translated St. Thomas Aquinas’ works. It was through this that she familiarized herself with Thomist philosophy and shifted away from Husserl’s philosophy. St. Edith Stein, today, stands as one of the most notable atheists to have converted to Catholicism. She is the patron saint for nonbelievers and atheists alike.
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tonyrey
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The fact remains that Antony Flew ceased to be an atheist because he realised DNA is overwhelming evidence for Design. Can you suggest a more adequate explanation?
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Hokomai
Guest
I did not realise we had one! I shall have to read her.
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Abba
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I find it interesting that you should have to ask. If abstract or logical proofs were so valid and productive and fruitful you shouldn’t have to ask. We should all know people that came to recognize the existence of God through these a priori and a posteriori rational arguments. The pews should be packed with them.
I am still learning here, but, I just want to share a little quote of a book that I am reading now. I disagree with a big percentage of what the author has written. You may ask then why are you reading that book?
Well, it’s complicated. I am learning the framework, the model, if you will of christian theology. I am learning something and I find that something interesting but I disagree with the author in many points, interpretations and I think he plainly has some misunderstandings about certain ideas, etc…But, the book is still interesting, such as this point:“The philosophical theology envisaged in this book…It will also have a different method for it will be descriptive instead of deductive…This descriptive type of philosophical or natural theology does not prove anything, but it lets us seefor it brings out into the light the basic situation in which faith is rooted so that we can then see what its claims are. Incidentally, it may well be that this kind of procedure will be far more effective as an apologetic then the old attempt to demonstrate by rational argument. It is not likely that too many people have become Christians through the abstract and theoretical considerations adduced by the traditional arguments but if we proceed by way of description rather than demonstration, we are asking the person addressed to look with us at the phenomemon. There is a measure of participation here that is more likely to lead into a genuine understanding of a religious faith for this latter in any case a merely theoretical belief.” Principles of Theology, John Macquarrie
I like the idea of descriptive theology that allows the person to participates. It is actually how the faith has been passed down mostly.
What sayest thou?
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lowell_mass
Guest
I was convinced by Aquinas’s five proofs. Of course my conversion story is more complicated, but the proofs played a big role. I first came across them in Dawkins book the God Delusion. His ‘refutations’ were so poor that it made me try to refute Aquinas myself. I failed and here I am.
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Abba
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Wow! That’s a great story. Thank you for sharing!
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Ghosty
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I was an atheist for most of my life, and I came to believe in God based on the First Cause, though it wasn’t through reading Aquinas directly. I don’t even remember exactly where I first came across the First Cause argument, and I think it was something that just gradually crept into my mind and took root. I’d be happy to tell my story, if anyone is interested, as it wasn’t a straight line from atheism to Catholicism; Orthodox Judaism was actually my first interest precisely because of the “name of God” in the Tanakh and the existence of the Jewish people and religion. It all kind of came together to convert me to belief in God, and eventually to belief in the Catholic Faith.
Peace and God bless!
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