Has anyone EVER converted through logic alone?

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Laurence_of_PA

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For all the time spent comparing and debating arguments for the existence of God, to date I’ve never seen such a debate that actually accomplished anything beyond utter polarization of the two sides. It seems as though none of the reasoning for His existence is ever taken seriously unless one actually believes.

All of this of course leads to my poll…

(feel free to elaborate on your anwers:thumbsup: )
 
Laurence_of_PA said:
(feel free to elaborate on your anwers:thumbsup: )
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I was the atheist from hell nightmare for Christians for the last 16 of my first 36 years… There was no logic that would persuade me period… There is no logic that will persuade a man with no eyes of the existence of color…

However when God so wills, He makes very short work of atheist’s logical objections to His existence…!

Arsenios
 
Reader_Arsenios said:
I was the atheist from hell nightmare for Christians for the last 16 of my first 36 years… There was no logic that would persuade me period… There is no logic that will persuade a man with no eyes of the existence of color…

However when God so wills, He makes very short work of atheist’s logical objections to His existence…!

Arsenios
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So what happened in your case? I’m just curious. :o
 
Laurence_of_PA said:
For all the time spent comparing and debating arguments for the existence of God, to date I’ve never seen such a debate that actually accomplished anything beyond utter polarization of the two sides. It seems as though none of the reasoning for His existence is ever taken seriously unless one actually believes.

All of this of course leads to my poll…

(feel free to elaborate on your anwers:thumbsup: )
Click to expand...
Most debates are like that. A Republican and a Democrat go on TV. How many times does the Republican say “got me there, I’m becoming a Democrat from now on?”.
However the debates are not pointless. For instance a majority of people believed in government-run industry in Britain in the 1970s, now almost no-one supports a return to nationalisation. Minds can be changed.
 
Malcolm_McLean said:
Most debates are like that. A Republican and a Democrat go on TV. How many times does the Republican say “got me there, I’m becoming a Democrat from now on?”.
However the debates are not pointless. For instance a majority of people believed in government-run industry in Britain in the 1970s, now almost no-one supports a return to nationalisation. Minds can be changed.
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Of course people would never completely change sides in a formal debate even if they lost, but rather may discreetly change sides later on – point made. 👍

However, if a republican gradually changed sides to become a democrat, their decision would be based upon reasoning and comparison, not faith. Faith in the party would come later. (Personally, I don’t have faith in either party 😉 )

In the case of religious believing-in-God-type conversion, I’m asking if anyone has EVER put logic and reasoning first? Seems to me that it takes faith to first accept all the justifications as relevant and logical.
 
The light of reason alone can uncover some of the truths held by the Catholic Church and reason is thus an accurate guide to the the truth of the Catholic faith, but the most essential truths held by the Catholic Church require the light given by the supernatural virtue of faith.
 
dylanschrader said:
The light of reason alone can uncover some of the truths held by the Catholic Church and reason is thus an accurate guide to the the truth of the Catholic faith, but the most essential truths held by the Catholic Church require the light given by the supernatural virtue of faith.
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So, you are simply reaffirming what I said that unless faith or some sort of belief or credit toward Theism comes first, the reasoning and logic part is meaningless.
 
I was raised Protestant and began to question my faith and God in general. I came to the conclusion that there must be some type of maker since something cannot come from nothing. I then researched as many religions as possible to see if there was a religion made any logical sense to me. I found three: Deism, Judaism, and Christianity. I researched the case for Christ being the Messiah and it made sense so I crossed Judaism off the list. As far as deciding between Deism and Christianity it took me awhile. My thoughts ended up being there were too many unexplainable events that happened to just pass it off as mere coincidence (what Deism did). So I went back to Christianity and was fortunate enough to have a relationship with a Catholic girl that led me to (never talked about or forced however) Catholicism. I was rabid anti-Catholic in my Protestant days and I began to do historical research and biblical study and here I am today, ready to start RCIA. This all started 4+ years ago.

But for the record, Catholicism itself is illogical. You have a Virgin giving birth WITHOUT ever having sex, a man that claims to be the Son of God, a crucifixion from which He recovers and gets up from the dead, and then gets rises on up into the sky. Where is any of this logical. It isn’t. But what makes it believable is the evidence and supporting facts/arguments along with corroborating stories dealing with things like apparitions and miracles.

Phew…that was a lot!

dxu
 
Laurence_of_PA said:
So what happened in your case? I’m just curious. :o
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A three-year awakening, for three Christmases… Until I finally got it that it was God doing the awakening, and not a “deeper level of self” as I thought after the first Christmas, and not a “Oh cool - That is how the universe works! It responds to my thoughts!” of the second Christmas, But “Oh my God… This changes EVERYTHING…” of the third Christmas…

So that it was divine revelation, and then the friendship of God, and an exuberance of joy that defies description… I only wish I had been an Orthodox Christian during that awakening!

And I STILL did not like Christians… God told me not to attack them, and I stopped doing that, but I knew for a fact that MY God was no Christian God… And He corrected me in that error some 14 years later… It took me 55 years to become a Christian…

Arsenios
 
i really truly find the Catholic faith completly and totaly logical. nothing really confuses me with it everything just made since. where as protestants make no sence to me what so ever.
CRDAD
 
If your dealing with an atheist its different than dealing with someone like a Protestant and trying to bring him into the Church.

The atheist is the most illogical of all people. He can’t even read the natural signs around. Or more probably won’t read them. Something really special has to happen, imo.

I think love is a big part of it. A person has to really feel love and get over anger and bitterness. Whatever you can do to help that is great. And just show good things about your faith that show the connection or something.
 
Im not even sure you can believe ANYTHING with logic alone given things like Hume’s problem of induction. Im shootin from the hip by saying this though.🙂

To answer the question though, I dont think its possible because I think God wants us to develop Faith. To me its just as critical a component as logic in every day living. Logic gives us possibilities, Faith gives us decisions.
 
snowman10 said:
I was raised Protestant and began to question my faith and God in general. I came to the conclusion that there must be some type of maker since something cannot come from nothing. I then researched as many religions as possible to see if there was a religion made any logical sense to me. I found three: Deism, Judaism, and Christianity. I researched the case for Christ being the Messiah and it made sense so I crossed Judaism off the list. As far as deciding between Deism and Christianity it took me awhile. My thoughts ended up being there were too many unexplainable events that happened to just pass it off as mere coincidence (what Deism did). So I went back to Christianity and was fortunate enough to have a relationship with a Catholic girl that led me to (never talked about or forced however) Catholicism. I was rabid anti-Catholic in my Protestant days and I began to do historical research and biblical study and here I am today, ready to start RCIA. This all started 4+ years ago.

But for the record, Catholicism itself is illogical. You have a Virgin giving birth WITHOUT ever having sex, a man that claims to be the Son of God, a crucifixion from which He recovers and gets up from the dead, and then gets rises on up into the sky. Where is any of this logical. It isn’t. But what makes it believable is the evidence and supporting facts/arguments along with corroborating stories dealing with things like apparitions and miracles.

Phew…that was a lot!

dxu
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stories dealing with things like apparitions and miracles.

angelfire.com/ca3/rafaelmarie/ThePieta/bstbridgetprayers.html
 
fatmnonk1 said:
i really truly find the Catholic faith completly and totaly logical. nothing really confuses me with it everything just made since. where as protestants make no sence to me what so ever.
CRDAD
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I agree with you. As extraordinary as the Catholic Religion is - it all makes perfect sence. I love it!!!

What I know about Protestantism just seems too man- made - too easy.
 
fatmnonk1 said:
i really truly find the Catholic faith completly and totaly logical. nothing really confuses me with it everything just made since. where as protestants make no sence to me what so ever.
CRDAD
Click to expand...
I do not recall Paul saying of the mature among the faithful, “We are holding the LOGIC of the Faith in a purified conscience…” Do you??

There was another word there… The “M” word…

Arsenios
 
It was logic which brought CS Lewis from atheism to theism.

Logic played a large (but certainly not complete) role in his move from theism to Christianity. BUT – that logic was paired with the witness of strong Christian friends. (JRR Tolkien, Hugo Dyson, etc.)
 
Laurence_of_PA said:
So, you are simply reaffirming what I said that unless faith or some sort of belief or credit toward Theism comes first, the reasoning and logic part is meaningless.
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No, I am not saying that. Man can know of the existence of a personal God by the light of reason alone, without faith. (CCC, 35)

Belief in all the truths held by the Church, however, requires the virtue of Faith.
 
If I am debating an atheist, my primary goal is not to win him over (unless we are completely alone). My primary goal is to establish the idea that Christianity has reasons for its beliefs in the minds of anyone listening in. Most people listening in are open to be moved one way or the other. Most people actually involved directly in a debate are not. If atheists are not given an answer, the impression is left with listeners that there IS no answer.

Going out on a limb here: Most atheists involved in a debate regarding theism or Christianity are NOT atheists for intellectual reasons alone, no matter what smokescreen they put up. There are a lot of moral accountability issues involved as well. It’s always easier to be “disbelieving” or “seeking” or even “spiritual” than Christian.

(I say this, having been an atheist for a few years.)
 
Laurence_of_PA said:
For all the time spent comparing and debating arguments for the existence of God, to date I’ve never seen such a debate that actually accomplished anything beyond utter polarization of the two sides. It seems as though none of the reasoning for His existence is ever taken seriously unless one actually believes.

All of this of course leads to my poll…

(feel free to elaborate on your anwers:thumbsup: )
Click to expand...
I couldn’t find my answer on your poll, unless you mean it to be included under the last category. Whatever a person THINKS led them to convert to Catholicism, I believe it is an intervention of the Holy Spirit upon the person. It most certainly was weith me, and I never thought otherwise after I caught my breath. However, because of the strength and stubborness of human free will, I can see where someone might believe they arrived at their conversion through logic, or whatever other reason. It’ll be interesting to see your poll results.

Yours in Christ,

Steven
 
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