Has anyone ever switched lay orders?

[Bookcat]

never heard of these

Next:

Before the Servites ever existed as an official religious Order, seven prosperous men came together in the city of Florence, Italy. As a reflection of the penitential spirit of the times, it had been the custom of these men to meet regularly as members of a religious society established in honor of Mary, the Mother of God. Eventually, the seven left their comfortable homes, put aside their finery and went to live together in a ramshackle building outside the city walls. The holiness and penitential lifestyle of the seven quickly attracted attention and people seeking prayers and spiritual direction became frequent visitors. To avoid these distractions that they considered a hindrance to the contemplative life they sought, the entire group moved to more peaceful surroundings, and established a hermitage on the summit of a nearby mountain, Monte Senario, sometimes known as the “sounding mountain.”

Coming to be known as the “Friar Servants of Mary,” others joined the first seven on Monte Senario, and as the group continued to grow, the seeds of the new religious Order took root. The Friar Servants of Mary were approved as a religious Order by the bishop of Florence sometime between the years 1240 and 1247. In the year 1304, the Order of Friar Servants of Mary received definitive approval as a religious Order in the Church by the Holy See.

servite.org/History/History-Origins.aspx

 

[Bookcat]

never heard of these >>>The Order of the Most Holy Trinity and of the Captives
The Order of Our Lady of Mercy
The Order of the Servants of Mary
The Augustinian Order

Next

The Order, also called the Mercedarians, or Order of Mercy, was founded in 1218 in Spain by St. Peter Nolasco under the direct inspiration of the Blessed Virgin Mary to redeem Christian captives from their Muslim captors. For St. Peter, the captives were most poor and impoverished of all people for one reason: because their faith was in serious danger.

orderofmercy.org/charism.html

And

The Order of the Blessed Virgin Mary of Mercy is an international community of priests and brothers who live a life of prayer and communal fraternity. In addition to the vows of poverty, chastity and obedience, their members take a special fourth vow to give up their own selves for others whose faith is in danger.

The Order, also called the Mercedarians, or Order of Mercy, was founded in 1218 in Spain by St. Peter Nolasco to redeem Christian captives from their Muslim captors.

 

[Bookcat]

never heard of these >>>The Order of the Most Holy Trinity and of the Captives
The Order of Our Lady of Mercy
The Order of the Servants of Mary
The Augustinian Order

And finally

The Order of the Most Holy Trinity and Captives

The Order was founded by St. John de Matha and St. Felix of Valois at the end of the 12th century. From the outset, a special dedication to the mystery of the Holy Trinity has been a constitutive element of their life, the beginnings of which are deeply rooted in the Crusades. The founding intention of John was the ransom of Christians held captive by nonbelievers, a consequence of crusading and pirating along the Mediterranean coast of Europe.

The Order and the Rule of St. John de Matha were approved by Pope Innocent III on December 17, 1198. The Order’s distinctive cross of red and blue can be traced to its beginnings.

Along with the Order’s mission of ransoming Christian captives, each Trinitarian Community served the people of its area by performing works of mercy. Thus redemption and mercy are at the very center of the Trinitarian charism.

First generation Trinitarians could count some 50 foundations throughout France, Italy, Spain, Portugal, Luxembourg, Scotland, England and Ireland. Ransoming captives required economic resources and the Trinitarians set aside 1/3 of all income for this purpose. This was called the teria pars.

The Spirituality of the Order of the Most Holy Trinity is epitomized in the Order’s motto, Trinitati Gloria, Captivis Libertas, and in its title Ordo Sanctae Trinitatis et Captivorum.

trinitarians.org/about/ourroots.html

Given the origins of ransoming Christians taken captive by Muslims and in danger of giving up their faith - the modern persecution of Christians is of central importance for the Order’s work and prayer.

 

[Bookcat]

Next one:

The Order of Saint Augustine

was founded in 1244 in Italy when several communities of hermits living in the region of Tuscany came together to ask Pope Innocent IV that they be united under one common Rule of life and one Superior General like other Orders that had recently been founded. The Pope gave them the Rule of Saint Augustine and asked representatives of each of their houses, gathered in chapter, to elect a Prior General who would be the sign and principal promoter of their desired unity. Not many years later, as the number of friars grew and the Order became more geographically extensive, other similar groups of hermits, scattered mostly throughout central Italy, were united to them, forming in 1256 what has come to be known as the Grand Union of the Order. The strong eremitical emphasis which characterized the early groups gradually began to give way to a mixed life of contemplation and pastoral ministry as the Church called the Order to form part of the Mendicant Movement and engage in the work of evangelization.

augustinian.org/order/

 

[JimR-OCDS]

For my wife and myself, we never left the OCDS, but our community, which was old when we joined, the members died or could no longer make meetings due to poor health.

Even at age 55, we were the youngsters.

Our monthly meetings were held at a Carmelite Nursing Home, where they had a beautiful chapel for our Mass, and we had a conference room to meet for formation. The Carnelite Nuns ran the facility. However, that lasted until they sold the business to a private company. They kept the name, and we could still use the facilities, but it wasn’t the same. The Blessed Sacrament was removed from the Chapel, and it became more of a non-denominational type chapel you’d see in a hospital.

We are friends with out spiritual director and communicate with him regularly, but he’s now at Holy Hill in Wisconsin.

Anyway, the thought of joining a Lay Cistercian group is more of a passing thought.

In fact I looked into their group last night and they’re relatively new, only being formed in 2000 and they only recently developed a constitution and formation process.

I still enjoy going to the Monastery for Vespers and Benediction on occasion and make a week-end retreat once in a while. The Trappists will always have a place in my heart.

So, my wife and myself are content to be as the Lord has put us, inactive with a community, but active within our rule of life.

Jim

 

[Luigi_Daniele]

Thanks, Book!

 

[carnes88]

For my wife and myself, we never left the OCDS, but our community, which was old when we joined, the members died or could no longer make meetings due to poor health.

Even at age 55, we were the youngsters.

Our monthly meetings were held at a Carmelite Nursing Home, where they had a beautiful chapel for our Mass, and we had a conference room to meet for formation. The Carnelite Nuns ran the facility. However, that lasted until they sold the business to a private company. They kept the name, and we could still use the facilities, but it wasn’t the same. The Blessed Sacrament was removed from the Chapel, and it became more of a non-denominational type chapel you’d see in a hospital.

We are friends with out spiritual director and communicate with him regularly, but he’s now at Holy Hill in Wisconsin.

Anyway, the thought of joining a Lay Cistercian group is more of a passing thought.

In fact I looked into their group last night and they’re relatively new, only being formed in 2000 and they only recently developed a constitution and formation process.

I still enjoy going to the Monastery for Vespers and Benediction on occasion and make a week-end retreat once in a while. The Trappists will always have a place in my heart.

So, my wife and myself are content to be as the Lord has put us, inactive with a community, but active within our rule of life.

Jim

Are you allowed to jump around from order to order like that?

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Are you allowed to jump around from order to order like that?

We didn’t jump from OCDS to another order, I merely looked into it, as our OCDS group no longer exist and there isn’t another nearby. We’re just inactive OCDS members.

To leave the order, we would have to write to the provincial office to be released from OCDS.

We’re not going to do that.

Jim

 

[DBT]

With regard to OCDS isolate status, maybe this will help … at least those who live in the Oklahoma Province (roughly the central 1/3rd of the US).

From our Statutes:

1. Professed OCDS members for whom excessive distance has become a significant obstacle to attendance at the nearest community’s meetings may be granted isolate status.
2. Each isolate shall be associated with a community or study group unless otherwise directed by the Provincial Delegate.
3. Isolates in Formation II (for Definitive Promise) must be assigned to a canonical community.
4. Isolates shall meet with their communities at least once a year, if possible.

We have several isolate members attached to our community. These members typically join us on our annual retreat at a minimum.

Inactive status is distinct from isolate. Inactive is reserved for those members of an active community who, for one reason or another, no longer can meet the attendance requirement. Age and illness are the typical reasons people go on inactive.

Hope this helps,
Dave

 

[DBT]

The articles from the Statutes just cited are meant to expand upon our Constitutions. Here are the pertinent points from our Constitutions regarding isolates in the Oklahoma Province:

1. The Provincial Council shall assign isolates to a community. the President of the local community shall initiate contact with the isolate. Ongoing contact may be delegated by the President to one or more members of the community.
2. There shall be monthly contact between the isolate and the community member. This contact may be via phone, letter or email or in person.
3. isolates in need of formation will be assigned to a Canonical Community and the Director of Formation shall oversee initial formation of isolates. Upon making the Definitive Promise an isolate then may be transferred to a study Group which may be geographically closer to the isolate.
4. All isolates are strongly encouraged to visit the community at least once a year.

When I was formation director, I had several isolates in the formation program as well as coordinated the efforts of those in our community responsible for reach out to the isolates assigned to us. Granted, isolate status isn’t ideal for the individual … but at least it provides a means for the member to continue some semblance of community life.

Dave

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Dave,
I believe that’s for existing isolated members.

As far as I remember, new Isolates were no longer allowed by the order, or at least in our province, when our group disbanded. My wife and myself inquired about it.

Jim

 

[Mary_Ellen]

As for the initial question, yes, I know some people who have switched lay orders. A fully professed Lay Franciscan and a fully professed Lay Dominican had to be released from their vows before being received into our Lay Carmelite Order six years ago as our Order does not allow for someone to belong to two orders at the same time. One cannot follow two different ways of life simultaneously.

If you feel you are truly being called to follow a different path and feel at peace with that decision I pray that God continue to lead you home.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

As for the initial question, yes, I know some people who have switched lay orders. A fully professed Lay Franciscan and a fully professed Lay Dominican had to be released from their vows before being received into our Lay Carmelite Order six years ago as our Order does not allow for someone to belong to two orders at the same time. One cannot follow two different ways of life simultaneously.

If you feel you are truly being called to follow a different path and feel at peace with that decision I pray that God continue to lead you home.

Mary Ellen, thanks.

One point however, 3rd order members of the Franciscans and Dominicans do not make vows, but promises.

Secular Order Discalced Carmelites make vows, which are optional a year after making definitive promises. I’m not sure if O’Carm 3rd order members make vows or not.

Jim

 

[Bookcat]

One point however, 3rd order members of the Franciscans and Dominicans do not make vows, but promises.

Secular Order Discalced Carmelites make vows, which are optional a year after making definitive promises. I’m not sure if O’Carm 3rd order members make vows or not.

Jim

Correct on the first.

As to the latter - yes they too may make vows.

 

[Bookcat]

Perhaps of interest to some:

Historical Third Orders Secular (and all are still in existence):

Secular Franciscan Order (Third Order of St. Francis)

Lay Dominicans (Dominican Third Order)

Third Order Secular of the Carmelite Order

Secular Order of Discalced Carmelites (Discalced Carmelite Third Order)

Third Order Secular of Most Holy Trinity (Tertiaries of the Order of the Most Holy Trinity and of the Captives)

Mercedarian Third Order (Tertiaries of the Order of the Blessed Virgin Mary of Mercy)

Servite Secular Order (Third Order of the Order of the Servants of Mary)

Secular Augustinians (Third Order of the Augustinian Order)

Secular Augustinian Recollects (Third Order of the Augustinian Recollect)

Minims Third Order

Premonstratensian Third Order

 

[Mary_Ellen]

Correct on the first.

As to the latter - yes they too may make vows.

Actually, we don’t make vows, either, at least not public vows. We make promises. After making our final promises and after a suitable period of discernment and spiritual direction a fully professed Lay Carmelite may make private vows of chastity and obedience. The Lay Carmelite is neither encouraged nor discouraged from making private vows.

Sorry about the previous reply regarding “vows” in the other lay orders. It revealed my ignorance. Nevertheless, the individuals referenced had to be released from their obligations to their previous orders before they could be received into ours.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Actually, we don’t make vows, either, at least not public vows. We make promises. After making our final promises and after a suitable period of discernment and spiritual direction a fully professed Lay Carmelite may make private vows of chastity and obedience. The Lay Carmelite is neither encouraged nor discouraged from making private vows.

Sorry about the previous reply regarding “vows” in the other lay orders. It revealed my ignorance. Nevertheless, the individuals referenced had to be released from their obligations to their previous orders before they could be received into ours.

We Secular Order Discalced Carmelites make vows before the community as we did when we made definitive promises.

The difference is, when we made promises, it was before God to the community. When we made vows, its before the community to God.

Jim

 

[Bookcat]

Actually, we don’t make vows, either, at least not public vows. We make promises. After making our final promises and after a suitable period of discernment and spiritual direction a fully professed Lay Carmelite may make private vows of chastity and obedience. The Lay Carmelite is neither encouraged nor discouraged from making private vows.

Sorry about the previous reply regarding “vows” in the other lay orders. It revealed my ignorance. Nevertheless, the individuals referenced had to be released from their obligations to their previous orders before they could be received into ours.

Yes I understand that there is a promise and that vows are not required but are an option.

But being that they are an option - what I noted is correct - yes Carmelite Tertiaries may make vows. Private Vows are indeed vows.

 

[carnes88]

The 3rd orders do indeed have too many meetings. It’s almost as if they are geared to single people only

We gather in community once a month, in trying to come together more.

 

[carnes88]

I am very saddened by what is related in the last several posts and very sorry that this sort of situation arises.

I think the actions taken in these revisions can result in very regrettable circumstances for life professed tertiaries…and potentially cause very distressing situations to arise for persons, after having faithfully lived their commitment for years. Aspects of these revisions have taken the tertiary vocation in a rather poorly considered direction, in my humble opinion, from the perspective of their analog in Religious life. It seems a better provision could be made.

A person who has made life promises as a tertiary and, correspondingly, has had those life promises received should be able to make provision/have provision made for them to live out those promises, according to what is feasible. The bond effected by life promises should be bilateral.

Community is a not insignificant element in the life of a third order…that is understandable; it is a reflection of the reality that community is an essential element in Religious Life. But there are many ways to live community, even as a Religious. Community is not placed above the individual in such a way that, if the community aspect is not possible, the Religious ceases to be a Religious.

Meetings should not be so highly treasured that they exceed the value of the mutual giftedness in the vocation – the tertiary is a gift to the religious family and the Religious family is a gift to the tertiary. One does not say to a family member, “well, we are declaring you inactive because of such and such circumstance” or, worse, “Well, we propose you leave this family and that you go and try to find another family somewhere else”

I mean it happens relative to Religious as well as tertiaries than one can become aware that one is called to do something different. How much poorer would the world be had the Lord not called Mother Teresa to leave the Sisters of Loretto in order to found the Missionaries of Charity?

But abolishing the category of isolated members seems very ill considered, to me. I was unaware of this development. I shall have to have a look around to come up to speed on this topic. Another project to do in retirement.

Franciscan are not allowed to have isolated Franciscans, community is imperative. However the Secular Franciscans are special canonically, we are the only “Third” Order that was by our founder and we are of Pontifical Right, no other is of Pontifical Right. We are not dependent on the Friars or the Nuns and we are not attached to them so we don’t need a friar around to have a community/fraternity canonically erected.

-Br. Pio, OFS