Has anyone ever switched lay orders?

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Benedictine15

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Fairly new to the forum…

I have been dealing with chronic depression/insomnia for 15 years. I was in the OCDS for approximately 14 years which includes 6 years of formation. The busyness and demands of community life was not compatible with my primary vocation as a wife, mother, homeschooler to youngest and part time ultrasonographer. Under the direction of a Carmelite Brother, I discerned it was best I voluntarily withdraw from the OCDS. This has brought much peace and I am able to shift my focus on my family life (God first). I continued to live the life of praying the Hours, attending daily Mass when possible, wearing the scapular, and setting time aside for quite, mental prayer and also, to still follow the writings of St. John of the Cross, my favorite Saint.

I started to reflect on the Rule of St. Benedict and realized not only how challenging it is but also how it continually invited me to take the focus off SELF and place it on God and serving my family…and others. This is important for someone who due to depression, can live a life that is quite self-absorbed. After starting with a spiritual mentor, I took the step and became a Benedictine Novice. What has also specifically drawn me is the fact that I can still be affiliated with a monastic order, have a Rule to follow under obedience (which still includes the Hours and private prayer) but also, understanding my needs unique to my soul, be accepted as an isolate since I live a good distance from the monastery and cannot attend meetings due to obligations (I have visited the monastery and plan on making retreats there when possible). I also tend to prefer time alone when it is available and does not interfere with my primary vocation as opposed to monthly (sometimes twice monthly) meetings.

Has anyone experienced switching an Order? If so, did you feel torn at all between the two? Would you mind sharing?

Bless you in advance for your time. I appreciate it!
 
Benedictine15 said:
Fairly new to the forum…

I have been dealing with chronic depression/insomnia for 15 years. I was in the OCDS for approximately 14 years which includes 6 years of formation. The busyness and demands of community life was not compatible with my primary vocation as a wife, mother, homeschooler to youngest and part time ultrasonographer. Under the direction of a Carmelite Brother, I discerned it was best I voluntarily withdraw from the OCDS. This has brought much peace and I am able to shift my focus on my family life (God first). I continued to live the life of praying the Hours, attending daily Mass when possible, wearing the scapular, and setting time aside for quite, mental prayer and also, to still follow the writings of St. John of the Cross, my favorite Saint.

I started to reflect on the Rule of St. Benedict and realized not only how challenging it is but also how it continually invited me to take the focus off SELF and place it on God and serving my family…and others. This is important for someone who due to depression, can live a life that is quite self-absorbed. After starting with a spiritual mentor, I took the step and became a Benedictine Novice. What has also specifically drawn me is the fact that I can still be affiliated with a monastic order, have a Rule to follow under obedience (which still includes the Hours and private prayer) but also, understanding my needs unique to my soul, be accepted as an isolate since I live a good distance from the monastery and cannot attend meetings due to obligations (I have visited the monastery and plan on making retreats there when possible). I also tend to prefer time alone when it is available and does not interfere with my primary vocation as opposed to monthly (sometimes twice monthly) meetings.

Has anyone experienced switching an Order? If so, did you feel torn at all between the two? Would you mind sharing?

Bless you in advance for your time. I appreciate it!
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I have certainly known Religious who have done it and been happy after their transition to their new situation of consecrated life. I pray the Lord blesses you and provides you with good people to help you at the monastery to which you are affiliating yourself.
 
Thank you for your response Don. I am much more at peace. I struggled for several years with doubts about my OCDS vocation. It took a wise spiritual director to help me to see how God was speaking to me (and how I was ignoring Him initially!)

Ironically enough, my life is more contemplative now than when I was in Carmel 🤷.
 
Oh…the monastery I am affiliated with is St. Vincent’s Archabbey and they have been more than helpful and the Oblate Director is wonderful as well as my Benefictine mentor.

Deo Gratias!
 
Best wishes to you, Theresa. I am presently praying about a possible vocation as an Oblate, too. I’m a young husband/father and while its not the primary reason for my attraction, I also find what I have read about the Benedictines’ flexibility to be greater than those of most 3rd orders - its asking a lot, even once a month, to spend half a day away from your spouse and young children. Please be assured of my prayers and let us know how your vocation progresses - I may be following you, albeit, at another monastery.
 
struggling4him said:
Best wishes to you, Theresa. I am presently praying about a possible vocation as an Oblate, too. I’m a young husband/father and while its not the primary reason for my attraction, I also find what I have read about the Benedictines’ flexibility to be greater than those of most 3rd orders - its asking a lot, even once a month, to spend half a day away from your spouse and young children. Please be assured of my prayers and let us know how your vocation progresses - I may be following you, albeit, at another monastery.
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I appreciate your reply very much!

When I was in the OCDS (I began with children of various ages at home), I was away from home one Sunday a month…at least until dinner. Once I was professed, I was expected to serve my community. My involvement led to being away from my family more than once a month (my children are a bit older at this point but still…) due to Council meetings and events I was expected to attend. In addition, the extra burden of the duties expected of me outside the Rule further pulled me away right within my home. I won’t go into much detail and you can PM me if you would like to, but my spiritual director at the time, who happened to be a Carmelite Brother, helped me to see and discern that my vocation in Carmel was actually pulling me away from my primary vocation, not adding to it. Before this, I was struggling greatly with my vocation to begin with…questioning.

When I discerned to withdraw from community and the OCDS, it was if a great burden was lifted from me. I still continued to live the Rule and started with a new spiritual director. I was led to begin studying the Rule of St. Benedict then upon further research found out that the monastery I was interested in accepted isolate or long distance members. I really felt the Rule was challenging me and helping me to grow in my primary vocation. I became an Olbate Novice in September 2015. I visited the monastery, which is about 4 1/2 hours away, in November. I was truly at peace there.

There is no issue visiting there yearly or more as God and my duties permit. And my husband and youngest will accompany me next time but I do not have the burden of mandatory attendance at monthly meetings. I keep in touch with the monks there, I have a prayer partner who is a novice monk, and I participate on their online group. Once I make my Oblation, I can mentor others. There are plenty of ways to stay connected to my monastic family without taking time away from being a wife and mother.

Well, if you have any other questions, please feel free to ask or contact me. God bless you on your journey as well.
 
The 3rd orders do indeed have too many meetings. It’s almost as if they are geared to single people only
 
Luigi_Daniele said:
The 3rd orders do indeed have too many meetings. It’s almost as if they are geared to single people only
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Dear Louis,

I agree with you. I had a conversation previously with one of the single members of our community. She said if she is struggling to keep up with study, prayer, meetings, and service…she can’t imagine having a family and trying to do it all.

I understand commitment is important and community itself. But the emphasis on attendance and community have shifted quite a lot since I started in 1999. Unfortunately, there is no leeway. It is mandatory to attend meetings and there are consequences if you miss any. You may not be able to serve in community, you may be placed on an inactive list, or may be asked to consider a leave of absence if there is serious reason to miss several meetings.

This is just my personal experience and my opinion but it is as if the individual needs of each soul is not taken into consideration. Everyone is sort of lumped together as one organization.

That is what drew me to the Benedictines…they looked at me as a unique soul with different needs than say a single woman or a retired widow. I will not be any less committed because I am not physically at a meeting every month.
 
Benedictine15 said:
Dear Louis,

I agree with you. I had a conversation previously with one of the single members of our community. She said if she is struggling to keep up with study, prayer, meetings, and service…she can’t imagine having a family and trying to do it all.

I understand commitment is important and community itself. But the emphasis on attendance and community have shifted quite a lot since I started in 1999. Unfortunately, there is no leeway. It is mandatory to attend meetings and there are consequences if you miss any. You may not be able to serve in community, you may be placed on an inactive list, or may be asked to consider a leave of absence if there is serious reason to miss several meetings.

This is just my personal experience and my opinion but it is as if the individual needs of each soul is not taken into consideration. Everyone is sort of lumped together as one organization.

That is what drew me to the Benedictines…they looked at me as a unique soul with different needs than say a single woman or a retired widow. I will not be any less committed because I am not physically at a meeting every month.
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Which monastery? (via PM or you can not answer, obviously).

I am a big fan of subsidiarity. Monasteries do that quite well. Third orders (or at least the ones that I know): not so much.
 
Luigi_Daniele said:
Which monastery? (via PM or you can not answer, obviously).

I am a big fan of subsidiarity. Monasteries do that quite well. Third orders (or at least the ones that I know): not so much.
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Okay…first explain subsidiarity LOL :confused:

I am affiliated with St. Vincent Archabbey. It is about 4 1/2 hours from where I live. I have been there during the fall and am planning another trip in June.
 
Luigi_Daniele said:
The 3rd orders do indeed have too many meetings. It’s almost as if they are geared to single people only
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Ours is once a month. I’m married and it is no problem. I simply have “reserved” that morning on my calendar.
 
drforjc said:
Ours is once a month. I’m married and it is no problem. I simply have “reserved” that morning on my calendar.
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I think that is a good indication of your calling to that vocation.

It was not only the all day monthly meetings, but also any duties that were assigned to me in my position, as well as Council meetings, retreat days, and study at home. It was very overwhelming at times and under my spiritual director I discerned that I was not truly called to that level of commitment in the OCDS vocation. In a sense, it felt like too much community activity and not enough time for the contemplative aspect to be lived out.

Bless you!
 
Benedictine15 said:
Okay…first explain subsidiarity LOL :confused:

I am affiliated with St. Vincent Archabbey. It is about 4 1/2 hours from where I live. I have been there during the fall and am planning another trip in June.
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Thanks!

Subsidiarity is doing a task at the most local level possible. In order of preference: family, church, local government, county government, state, etc. 🙂
 
Benedictine15 said:
I think that is a good indication of your calling to that vocation.

It was not only the all day monthly meetings, but also any duties that were assigned to me in my position, as well as Council meetings, retreat days, and study at home. It was very overwhelming at times and under my spiritual director I discerned that I was not truly called to that level of commitment in the OCDS vocation. In a sense, it felt like too much community activity and not enough time for the contemplative aspect to be lived out.

Bless you!
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I suspect it can vary somewhat by community as well. I’m TOC and I can see how it could be too much for a person with very young children, but as you say that may be part of the vocation discernment. In my experience many of our aspirants have been middle aged.
But, I don’t consider that the fault of the Third Order or the way it’s set up. It’s just what a Third Order vocation consists of.
 
drforjc said:
I suspect it can vary somewhat by community as well. I’m TOC and I can see how it could be too much for a person with very young children, but as you say that may be part of the vocation discernment. In my experience many of our aspirants have been middle aged.
But, I don’t consider that the fault of the Third Order or the way it’s set up. It’s just what a Third Order vocation consists of.
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I wonder if there is a difference in community life between the TOC and OCDS? I am sure it can vary from community to community. We have five OCDS chapters where I live and it seems to be consistent throughout those at least.

I don’t want to place fault with the community or the Order. But within the updated OCDS statutes, more is mandated than when I started in 1999. It has definitely gotten busier.
 
Benedictine15 said:
I wonder if there is a difference in community life between the TOC and OCDS? I am sure it can vary from community to community. We have five OCDS chapters where I live and it seems to be consistent throughout those at least.

I don’t want to place fault with the community or the Order. But within the updated OCDS statutes, more is mandated than when I started in 1999. It has definitely gotten busier.
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As a priest, I have watched this evolve over many years in various settings of third orders. It is not my place to judge them, of course, but in the context of guiding those who belong to them, I can say that there are instances where I think they should re-discern some of the decisions they are taking.

Of course, being a tertiary is going to have a high level of demand and expectation…it is in the nature of the thing. Conversely, it is evident that a widow is going to have different possibilities than a wife who is mother to young children. If all is oriented toward the possibility of the former and none to the latter, it creates an impossibility for some.

I remember one case of someone who had the care of elderly parents and it was impossible for that person to attend meetings, at some distance, twice each month. The response was that such was essential. It was their decision, of course, but if the goal is to incorporate someone into that religious family, on the one hand, and to instill the charism of the Order into one who felt an attraction to it on the other, there were, perhaps, ways to do that beyond making a demand that could reasonably not be met. The meetings are not the life and the value the meeting serves (community) can be achieved by other means. But…these are decisions that rest with these third orders themselves.

Thankfully, for those who have this type of vocation, there are places where they can realise them in ways conformed to the realities of their lives.
 
Don_Ruggero said:
As a priest, I have watched this evolve over many years in various settings of third orders. It is not my place to judge them, of course, but in the context of guiding those who belong to them, I can say that there are instances where I think they should re-discern some of the decisions they are taking.

Of course, being a tertiary is going to have a high level of demand and expectation…it is in the nature of the thing. Conversely, it is evident that a widow is going to have different possibilities than a wife who is mother to young children. If all is oriented toward the possibility of the former and none to the latter, it creates an impossibility for some.

I remember one case of someone who had the care of elderly parents and it was impossible for that person to attend meetings, at some distance, twice each month. The response was that such was essential. It was their decision, of course, but if the goal is to incorporate someone into that religious family, on the one hand, and to instill the charism of the Order into one who felt an attraction to it on the other, there were, perhaps, ways to do that beyond making a demand that could reasonably not be met. The meetings are not the life and the value the meeting serves (community) can be achieved by other means. But…these are decisions that rest with these third orders themselves.

Thankfully, for those who have this type of vocation, there are places where they can realise them in ways conformed to the realities of their lives.
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Dear Father,

I appreciate your (name removed by moderator)ut very much. I sense you know exactly what I am referring to. I will not judge one from another either.

There have been similar circumstances in my previous community that you describe above as well as from across the country with other OCDS members (some in formation) I have had the privilege of meeting and speaking with.

And I will say my Carmelite background has prepared me very well in striving to live out the Holy Rule of St. Benedict. That I am grateful for. 🙂

Bless you for your time.
 
Benedictine15 said:
Dear Father,

I appreciate your (name removed by moderator)ut very much. I sense you know exactly what I am referring to. I will not judge one from another either.

There have been similar circumstances in my previous community that you describe above as well as from across the country with other OCDS members (some in formation) I have had the privilege of meeting and speaking with.

And I will say my Carmelite background has prepared me very well in striving to live out the Holy Rule of St. Benedict. That I am grateful for. 🙂

Bless you for your time.
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Before retiring, I used to teach consecrated life. This aspect of laity being associated with religious families was of great interest to me, academically as well as pastorally.

I was a great proponent of third orders. I think they can play a very important role in the spiritual life. It can be a very delicate balance It has to be such that it is not seen as just a devotional society. On the other hand, if you create too many “hoops to jump through” it can be an impediment to what it is trying to achieve. I pray for those who are involved with the decision making about what is required.

Since oblates promise to live the Rule of Saint Benedict in so far as their state in life permits, such an approach provides a flexibility – one that can change significantly even over the course of one’s life.

God bless you. I am sure that everything you learned as a Carmelite tertiary will enrich your life as a Benedictine oblate. It really could not be otherwise.
 
Benedictine15 said:
Dear Father,

I appreciate your (name removed by moderator)ut very much. I sense you know exactly what I am referring to. I will not judge one from another either.

There have been similar circumstances in my previous community that you describe above as well as from across the country with other OCDS members (some in formation) I have had the privilege of meeting and speaking with.

And I will say my Carmelite background has prepared me very well in striving to live out the Holy Rule of St. Benedict. That I am grateful for. 🙂

Bless you for your time.
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If as an OCDS member you made definitive promises, you may have to be released from the order before you can join the Benedictines or any other order.

If you made vows, you definitely will have to ask to be released from the order.

Let us know how you make out. As an OCDS member, who made vows, but no longer have a group nearby, I have thought about other lay groups myself.

Jim
 
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