Has anyone noticed that non-believers won't take the CC seriously because of the scandals of the past and present?

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Especially the paedophilia/sex abuse scandals. When the Church has a public opinion on something, such as a morality topic, people will say that the CC are hypocritical and “irrelevant”, because of their crimes/wrongdoings of the past.

For example, the CC has complained about the languange on Gordon Ramsey’s shows: news.com.au/entertainment/comments/0,26700,23648304-10229,00.html, and there are so many people who dismiss the Church because they are complaining about language, yet they protected pedophiles etc. Read some of the public comments. It hurt me to read them. People are disgusted with the Church and with religion.

Will the CC ever lose the this reputation in secular societies? Should the CC back off from the public spotlight, or should it become even more public?

What would you say in this scenario:
Non-Christian: How dare your Church tell me and the rest of society what to do when some of the worst crimes were committed by your church, even in recent times. Why should I listen to the what the Church says?

You/me: 😊 :o (Then what should a Catholic say?)
 
MH84 said:
Especially the paedophilia/sex abuse scandals. When the Church has a public opinion on something, such as a morality topic, people will say that the CC are hypocritical and “irrelevant”, because of their crimes/wrongdoings of the past.

For example, the CC has complained about the languange on Gordon Ramsey’s shows: news.com.au/entertainment/comments/0,26700,23648304-10229,00.html, and there are so many people who dismiss the Church because they are complaining about language, yet they protected pedophiles etc. Read some of the public comments. It hurt me to read them. People are disgusted with the Church and with religion.

Will the CC ever lose the this reputation in secular societies? Should the CC back off from the public spotlight, or should it become even more public?

What would you say in this scenario:
Non-Christian: How dare your Church tell me and the rest of society what to do when some of the worst crimes were committed by your church, even in recent times. Why should I listen to the what the Church says?

You/me: 😊 :o (Then what should a Catholic say?)
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Honestly, I believe that it is going to take a very long time for the CC to heal her reputation. Look how long it has taken to try and heal the reputation of Mary Magdalene being labeled as a prostitute from Pope Greagory the Great. It takes time to heal reputations. Time does heal!

God Bless!
 
What would you say in this scenario:
Non-Christian: How dare your Church tell me and the rest of society what to do when some of the worst crimes were committed by your church, even in recent times. Why should I listen to the what the Church says?
Click to expand...
This is a good question. Here is what I, as a member of the Church, believe.

As a Catholic, I believe that the Church teaches the absolute truth given to us by the Father, revealed through the Son in His life, His Holy Word (both written and oral), and guided to interpretation through the Holy Spirit.

Thus, the teachings of the Church, or ‘what the Church says’ would be true whether or not the teachers (the clergy and we lay people) are ‘perfect’, ‘sinless’, etc. Personal ‘sin’ has no impact upon the Word of Christ.

Look at any other Christian denomination. There is not one of them–not one single one–which has not had its leaders (and followers) engage in sinful practices. Whether it was a pastor who committed adultery, pedophilia, even rape or murder; whether it was a deacon guilty of the same, or anybody at all associated in a ‘leadership position’, men and women of every Christian denomination–as well as men and women of every ‘religion’ or indeed claiming ‘no religion’ and being both leaders and followers, have been guilty of sins and crimes, big and little.

So. . .if you are going to claim that because some leaders in the Church sinned, that ‘the Catholic Church has no authority to tell me ‘what to do’ since some of them are sinners’–not only are you going to have to tell every other Christian denomination that THEY ‘can’t tell you what to do’, you’re going to have to tell every person on EARTH that ‘they can’t tell you what to do’. Because they all sin.

And then you’re in trouble, because even YOU can’t tell YOU ‘what to do’ because YOU’RE a sinner too. You can say, “Christ will tell me”. If so, why would he tell YOU but not all those ‘other sinners’? Can you answer that? You can’t, really. Either Christ has told us ‘what to do’ and we can still do it despite our personal sinfulness, or there is nobody we can ‘trust’, least of all ourselves.

The position that “no sinful person or group has a right to tell me what Christ says” falls apart when one examines Scripture and realizes that all of us need a Savior.

If ‘all of us are sinners’, and if sinners can’t tell somebody else Christ’s teachings because ‘they’re sinful and therefore personally untrustworthy’, then NOBODY can tell ANYBODY Christ’s teachings. Ever. And since Scripture says that we are to preach His message (and not one word about --and Thou mayest only preach if thou are guiltless of any sin, ever), we know that God wants us to speak of Christ’s teachings.

But. . .if Christ’s teachings are truthful, then even the most hoary sinner can tell even the ‘saintliest’ pastor those teachings and be ‘correct’. A murderer could tell Billy Graham, “Jesus Christ is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and you must follow Him and repent of your sins” and Billy (God bless him) would say, “Amen”, and not, “You foul sinner. How dare you tell ME what to do as a Christian when you are a sinner?”
 
(No offensive intend here just my honest opinion)

As an outsider I can say that there are problems that do limit my opinion of the CC. From nonbelievers being killed, Popes (and their children) waging wars and the more recent problems with pedophilia.
For myself I can separate the sins of individuals from the good of the church on the whole, but the church’s history does not persuade me to buy in to it as the Kingdom of God. A lot of the CC position is based on it’s own history. In many cases it is found wanting. Time tends to heal, but when history is a major selling point of the CC it will also be a place where it is attacked often.
 
The CC should mind its own business and refrain from trying to control the general public. Afterall they have more to worry about in its own backyard. Like what Jesus said, take off the plank in your own eye first.

I think the world would take the CC more seriously after it succeeds at running its own business smudge-free for a whole 100 years. Is that possible?
 
AgnosTheist said:
The CC should mind its own business and refrain from trying to control the general public. Afterall they have more to worry about in its own backyard. Like what Jesus said, take off the plank in your own eye first.
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Seriously, this is exactly what Im talking about. Especially, the “worrying about their own backyard first” type comment.

Also, regarding Jesus’ comment, when will the CC be ready to be the moral compass for society? IOW, when will the people listen? Probably never. Even if the Church does tend its own backyard.
 
AgnosTheist said:
I think the world would take the CC more seriously after it succeeds at running its own business **smudge-free **for a whole 100 years. Is that possible?
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I guess you answered one of my questions then. 🙂
 
People who are Christian and not Catholic are so, because of their own problems and not the Catholic Church…In other words, what you wrote about here, is the excuses that some use and not the cause(s)…If people were more honest, what I am “saying” here would become obvious…

People love to use excuses…and for many…excuses will lead to their demise…and to the loss of heaven.

Peace 🙂
 
MH84 said:
When the Church has a public opinion on something, such as a morality topic, people will say that the CC are hypocritical and “irrelevant”, because of their crimes/wrongdoings of the past.

What would you say in this scenario:
Non-Christian: How dare your Church tell me and the rest of society what to do when some of the worst crimes were committed by your church, even in recent times. Why should I listen to the what the Church says?
Click to expand...
I love the “hypocritical” angle that’s always thrown up, as it that disqualifies the church from preaching morality. The simple fact is that the entire human race is hypocritical. We are all SINNERS! According to God himself, NONE of us merit entrance into heaven, and yet Jesus died on the cross so that we have the possibility of heaven. (Let he who has never sinned cast the first stone.) The Catholic Church has the protection of the Holy Spirit, so that it never preaches false doctrine. This does not, however, extend to the perfection of its members (and exactly the same holds true for the infallibility of the pope). Of COURSE the Catholic Church (and every other denomination out there) is going to have many individual members that sin and commit the same acts as other governments and the rest of society. The membership is made up of sinners. In no way does that mean that the teachings of the church are fundamentally flawed.
 
Rolltide said:
I love the “hypocritical” angle that’s always thrown up, as it that disqualifies the church from preaching morality. The simple fact is that the entire human race is hypocritical. We are all SINNERS! According to God himself, NONE of us merit entrance into heaven, and yet Jesus died on the cross so that we have the possibility of heaven. (Let he who has never sinned cast the first stone.) The Catholic Church has the protection of the Holy Spirit, so that it never preaches false doctrine. This does not, however, extend to the perfection of its members (and exactly the same holds true for the infallibility of the pope). Of COURSE the Catholic Church (and every other denomination out there) is going to have many individual members that sin and commit the same acts as other governments and the rest of society. The membership is made up of sinners. In no way does that mean that the teachings of the church are fundamentally flawed.
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That’s where they are coming from though. They may know or not know that they are flawed, but they also don’t want a “flawed” organisation to tell them what to do. Exactly what you said: Let he who is without sin, cast the first stone. That’s what they are thinking is hypocritical from the CC. That the Church is full of sinners, yet wants to criticise other people’s actions, or at least tell them what is right.
 
MH84 said:
That’s where they are coming from though. They may know or not know that they are flawed, but they also don’t want a “flawed” organisation to tell them what to do. Exactly what you said: Let he who is without sin, cast the first stone. That’s what they are thinking is hypocritical from the CC. That the Church is full of sinners, yet wants to criticise other people’s actions, or at least tell them what is right.
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Except that the argument is flawed, because otherwise, nobody could ever criticize anything anywhere. We’re ALL hypocrites, so does that mean that we must simply give up and never take a stand on anything? Even if that were true, the difference is that the Catholic Church has the guaranteed protection of the Holy Spirit with regard to doctrine. ONLY God is above being hypocritical, and that’s what makes the Catholic Church special.
 
That goes without saying.
Tantum_ergo said:
This is a good question. Here is what I, as a member of the Church, believe.

As a Catholic, I believe that the Church teaches the absolute truth given to us by the Father, revealed through the Son in His life, His Holy Word (both written and oral), and guided to interpretation through the Holy Spirit.

Thus, the teachings of the Church, or ‘what the Church says’ would be true whether or not the teachers (the clergy and we lay people) are ‘perfect’, ‘sinless’, etc. Personal ‘sin’ has no impact upon the Word of Christ.

Look at any other Christian denomination. There is not one of them–not one single one–which has not had its leaders (and followers) engage in sinful practices. Whether it was a pastor who committed adultery, pedophilia, even rape or murder; whether it was a deacon guilty of the same, or anybody at all associated in a ‘leadership position’, men and women of every Christian denomination–as well as men and women of every ‘religion’ or indeed claiming ‘no religion’ and being both leaders and followers, have been guilty of sins and crimes, big and little.

So. . .if you are going to claim that because some leaders in the Church sinned, that ‘the Catholic Church has no authority to tell me ‘what to do’ since some of them are sinners’–not only are you going to have to tell every other Christian denomination that THEY ‘can’t tell you what to do’, you’re going to have to tell every person on EARTH that ‘they can’t tell you what to do’. Because they all sin.

And then you’re in trouble, because even YOU can’t tell YOU ‘what to do’ because YOU’RE a sinner too. You can say, “Christ will tell me”. If so, why would he tell YOU but not all those ‘other sinners’? Can you answer that? You can’t, really. Either Christ has told us ‘what to do’ and we can still do it despite our personal sinfulness, or there is nobody we can ‘trust’, least of all ourselves.

The position that “no sinful person or group has a right to tell me what Christ says” falls apart when one examines Scripture and realizes that all of us need a Savior.

If ‘all of us are sinners’, and if sinners can’t tell somebody else Christ’s teachings because ‘they’re sinful and therefore personally untrustworthy’, then NOBODY can tell ANYBODY Christ’s teachings. Ever. And since Scripture says that we are to preach His message (and not one word about --and Thou mayest only preach if thou are guiltless of any sin, ever), we know that God wants us to speak of Christ’s teachings.

But. . .if Christ’s teachings are truthful, then even the most hoary sinner can tell even the ‘saintliest’ pastor those teachings and be ‘correct’. A murderer could tell Billy Graham, “Jesus Christ is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and you must follow Him and repent of your sins” and Billy (God bless him) would say, “Amen”, and not, “You foul sinner. How dare you tell ME what to do as a Christian when you are a sinner?”
Click to expand...
 
MH84 said:
Especially the paedophilia/sex abuse scandals. When the Church has a public opinion on something, such as a morality topic, people will say that the CC are hypocritical and “irrelevant”, because of their crimes/wrongdoings of the past.

For example, the CC has complained about the languange on Gordon Ramsey’s shows: news.com.au/entertainment/comments/0,26700,23648304-10229,00.html, and there are so many people who dismiss the Church because they are complaining about language, yet they protected pedophiles etc. Read some of the public comments. It hurt me to read them. People are disgusted with the Church and with religion.

Will the CC ever lose the this reputation in secular societies? Should the CC back off from the public spotlight, or should it become even more public?

What would you say in this scenario:
Non-Christian: How dare your Church tell me and the rest of society what to do when some of the worst crimes were committed by your church, even in recent times. Why should I listen to the what the Church says?

You/me: 😊 :o (Then what should a Catholic say?)
Click to expand...
The church should become more public. I’m sick of having to be careful of saying GOD Bless to someone or Merry Christmas. I love it when the Pope or the church speaks out. There may have been some issues within the RCC but that doesn’t mean it is incapable of delivering a moral message. Telling the church to be quiet is the same as telling Jesus to mind his own business. Maybe if all Christians started supporting the church 100% then people would actually start listening.

PEACE
 
What do you expect? The CC says that it has the ‘fullness of truth’ and then is revealed to be full of pedophiles. Saying that the church is ‘made up of sinful people’ therefore we should look past its wrongs, is a first-class cop-out.
 
kenmd said:
What do you expect? The CC says that it has the ‘fullness of truth’ and then is revealed to be full of pedophiles. Saying that the church is ‘made up of sinful people’ therefore we should look past its wrongs, is a first-class cop-out.
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Who is saying that “we should look past its wrongs”? I must have missed that part.
 
I have nothing but the greatest respect for the Roman Catholic church when it comes to the moral strength they exhibit when defending innocent human life, from the womb to the grave. This is my number one reason for admiring them.

While it is true that other religions are equally opposed to abortion, euthanasia, etc (Buddhism, Orthodox Judaism, fundamentalist Protestantism), only the Catholic church speaks out as forcefully and bravely as it has, and for that, it has earned my respect.

I want to add that the Catholic church is not the only religion to harbor pedophiles: there have also been cases of rabbis, Buddhist monks and Protestant ministers who were convicted for pedophilia also. This IS NOT only a Catholic problem.

My mother in law was a Baptist, and the pastor of her church was arrested and convicted for using and selling child porn.

A rabbi at a synagogue in NJ when we lived there was arrested and convicted for molesting his own nephew.

I deeply resent those who try to imply this is somehow “only a Catholic problem”, because it gives non-Catholic parents a false sense of security that their kids are safe as long as they are not at a CATHOLIC religious facility.

I also want to add that the Catholic religion was not the only one to kill people in the name of their religion.

I seem to recall (more recently, too) a certain Middle Eastern religion with extremist followers who like to behead people “in the name of Allah and jihad”…
 
I have this talk with the Confirmation class that I teach every year. I mention those who do not participate in Church because of the “hypocrites.” Now, it is true that the hypocrites need to adjust themselves, but it is a sad statement that someone would put another person’s sin between them and God.

CAtholics are not the only ones who have fallen short of Christianity. To say that because we have sinners does not mean we are the true church will rule out every religion on earth.
 
kenmd said:
What do you expect? The CC says that it has the ‘fullness of truth’ and then is revealed to be full of pedophiles. Saying that the church is ‘made up of sinful people’ therefore we should look past its wrongs, is a first-class cop-out.
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Ken,
***Full ***of pedophiles? A bit over the top, wouldn’t you say? The actions of a small number of priests can hardly be equated to full of pedophiles. It seems to me that when sin is at its greatest, that is the time to speak most strongly about it. The moral message of the church Catholic is not the message of sinful beings, but of God himself. The fact that priests, noncatholic clergy, and laity stray from the message is expected.
Condemned, but expected.
As a teacher, my profession has a far greater problem with pedophilia. Seems to me the Catholic Church has taken a much larger flogging in the media than educators.
Jon
 
JonNC said:
Ken,
***Full ***of pedophiles? A bit over the top, wouldn’t you say? The actions of a small number of priests can hardly be equated to full of pedophiles. It seems to me that when sin is at its greatest, that is the time to speak most strongly about it. The moral message of the church Catholic is not the message of sinful beings, but of God himself. The fact that priests, noncatholic clergy, and laity stray from the message is expected.
Condemned, but expected.
As a teacher, my profession has a far greater problem with pedophilia. Seems to me the Catholic Church has taken a much larger flogging in the media than educators.
Jon
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But, educators don’t claim to be:​

  • holy
  • apostolic
  • members of the One True Church
  • infallible in faith & morals
  • commissioned by Christ
    or to have any other of the numerous virtues, privileges & graces claimed by or on behalf the CC. Nor do they have a history full of crimes & horrors, such as the scandals that were covered up until 2002.
**That is the crucial difference. The CC makes a set of claims - yet its history belies them. By making very exalted claims for itself, it has painted itself into a very small corner. Other Churches have paedophile pastors, but other Church do not make the absolute for their own legitimacy & unfailing rightness that the CC does. The CC does make such claims - so it cannot be tested by more lenient ones; it has made that impossible. It has set the bar so high that no other body can vault it - & neither can the CC. Post-graduates aren’t tested with the same rigour as children who are twenty years younger - they are expected to present work of a much higher quality; & as the CC makes the claims it does, it cannot be tested by the same standards as a body of purely human origin. In fact, to try it by such low standards is insulting to it, & in, Catholics, suggests lack of belief in its claims. **

**To make matters very much worse, it has been extremely slow to take responsibility for the evils it has enabled, connived at, or caused. “The children of this world” have a better sense of what they owe to those whose lives they have ruined than this body seems to have - & that is a terrible disgrace. 😦 **

**Where does the test by fruits leave the CC ? I have no idea, & wish I did 😦 **
 
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