This statement is saying that you know how the Church (that is, members of the Church) would behave if her claims were true. Are you prepared to state that you know how Catholics would behave if the claims of the Catholic Church were true?
The test by fruits leaves the Catholic Church in the same positions all of the rest of us (oddly enough); that we all sin and fall short of the glory of God., that we must turn to the grace of God through our Lord and Savior for forgiveness, as it is clear that none of us are capable of living up to the high vault that the law sets before us. Our works always fail us. As for holding the CC to an even higher standard, I will leave that to you and other Catholics, as the log in my eye is clearly equal to yours.But, educators don’t claim to be:
That is the crucial difference. The CC makes a set of claims - yet its history belies them. By making very exalted claims for itself, it has painted itself into a very small corner. Other Churches have paedophile pastors, but other Church do not make the absolute for their own legitimacy & unfailing rightness that the CC does. The CC does make such claims - so it cannot be tested by more lenient ones; it has made that impossible. It has set the bar so high that no other body can vault it - & neither can the CC. Post-graduates aren’t tested with the same rigour as children who are twenty years younger - they are expected to present work of a much higher quality; & as the CC makes the claims it does, it cannot be tested by the same standards as a body of purely human origin. In fact, to try it by such low standards is insulting to it, & in, Catholics, suggests lack of belief in its claims.
- holy
- apostolic
- members of the One True Church
- infallible in faith & morals
- commissioned by Christ
or to have any other of the numerous virtues, privileges & graces claimed by or on behalf the CC. Nor do they have a history full of crimes & horrors, such as the scandals that were covered up until 2002.
**To make matters very much worse, it has been extremely slow to take responsibility for the evils it has enabled, connived at, or caused. “The children of this world” have a better sense of what they owe to those whose lives they have ruined than this body seems to have - & that is a terrible disgrace.**
**Where does the test by fruits leave the CC ? I have no idea, & wish I did
You mention all of these “crimes and horrors”, and yet the Catholic Church is also responsible for more GOOD than ANY other institution in the entire history of the world. The very size of the church makes its flaws more ominous and apparent, but that should not overwhelm the absolutely gigantic contributions that Catholicism has made to Western Civilization and the world. I should also mention that virtually every other denomination out there has had some very serious scandals in their past, whether it was 100,000 peasants massacred due to the refusal of Luther to help them, to Calvin burning heretics, to Puritans holding witch trials, and Anglicans executing Catholics.
Yes! You get it exactly!!! The Catholic Church has INDEED set a bar so high that no other body can vault it, including itself. That is PRECISELY the point! As I explain to my students, you can think of it this way… The laws of earthly governments are set to the lowest possible acceptable standards to allow the greatest amount of freedom for its citizens. Anything less, and society would break down. The laws of the Catholic Church are purposely set to the highest possible standard. In other words, this would be the behavior and actions expected of perfect people in a utopia (or heaven). There is no possible way to live up to them, but they are set as the ultimate example. As humans, even those inside of the Vatican, we all live in-between these two sets of laws. Now, with regard to our personal lives, it is not enough to be just barely above society’s laws; we must strive to be as close to God’s law as possible. And yet, we will ALWAYS fail to be perfect. Every government on earth has incurred scandals throughout history, and yet, just because a government like the US has done corrupt things doesn’t mean that I think that it has lost its authority to govern me. Instead, I work to change it from the inside. You might do well to research the Cluny Reform Movement within Catholic history. During this first period of corruption in the 900s AD, the Catholic Church successfully policed itself and cleaned up most of its act until the 1300s.
This is not necessarily unexpected for an institution that was trying to come to grips with such a large-scale problem from more than 10,000 miles away. Although the Vatican functions as a government, it has a surprisingly small staff to deal with such matters. From the time that the scandal broke until now has only been five years, and by Church standards, that’s really good. It seems that the rate of sexual abuse has now sharply declined, and almost all new cases discovered have been from priests prior to the turn of the millenium. This in NO WAY excuses the actions of the bishops, because this was a mid-level scandal that also involved the shifting around of problem priests, but it is clear that Benedict XVI and the highest levels are now aware of the gravity of the situation, and taking appropriate action.
Not possible.
You know despite not being catholic I like that attitude
That would require perfect men to do this. These types are hard to find. The last time there was a perfect man, they didn’t take him seriously, and crucified him.
Thanks.
My math teacher says 2+2=4. He can demonstrate it to be so. Now I find out he is a drunk, thief, murderer, and adulterer. I guess I can no longer take his math equation as fact.Especially the paedophilia/sex abuse scandals. When the Church has a public opinion on something, such as a morality topic, people will say that the CC are hypocritical and “irrelevant”, because of their crimes/wrongdoings of the past.
For example, the CC has complained about the languange on Gordon Ramsey’s shows: news.com.au/entertainment/comments/0,26700,23648304-10229,00.html, and there are so many people who dismiss the Church because they are complaining about language, yet they protected pedophiles etc. Read some of the public comments. It hurt me to read them. People are disgusted with the Church and with religion.
Will the CC ever lose the this reputation in secular societies? Should the CC back off from the public spotlight, or should it become even more public?
What would you say in this scenario:
Non-Christian: How dare your Church tell me and the rest of society what to do when some of the worst crimes were committed by your church, even in recent times. Why should I listen to the what the Church says?
You/me:
(Then what should a Catholic say?)
People are not Catholic because they do not want to be not because of anything Her members have done.It’s not about the scandals. It’s about the percieved power of the CC. These same people know that the same things have happened in every religious organization that has ever existed. They know that Baptist minister molest young boys. They know that Protestant churches killed people over religious differences. They know that American Protestant churches controlled the government and discriminated against Catholics, Jews, and anyone else who didn’t toe their religious line.Especially the paedophilia/sex abuse scandals. When the Church has a public opinion on something, such as a morality topic, people will say that the CC are hypocritical and “irrelevant”, because of their crimes/wrongdoings of the past.
For example, the CC has complained about the languange on Gordon Ramsey’s shows: news.com.au/entertainment/comments/0,26700,23648304-10229,00.html, and there are so many people who dismiss the Church because they are complaining about language, yet they protected pedophiles etc. Read some of the public comments. It hurt me to read them. People are disgusted with the Church and with religion.
Will the CC ever lose the this reputation in secular societies? Should the CC back off from the public spotlight, or should it become even more public?
What would you say in this scenario:
Non-Christian: How dare your Church tell me and the rest of society what to do when some of the worst crimes were committed by your church, even in recent times. Why should I listen to the what the Church says?
You/me:
The Catholic Church teaches infallibly on matters of faith and morals. That’s not the same as what you said. The Catholic Church, made up of human beings, will not be perfect.But, educators don’t claim to be:
That is the crucial difference. The CC makes a set of claims - yet its history belies them. By making very exalted claims for itself, it has painted itself into a very small corner. Other Churches have paedophile pastors, but other Church do not make the absolute for their own legitimacy & unfailing rightness that the CC does. The CC does make such claims - so it cannot be tested by more lenient ones; it has made that impossible. It has set the bar so high that no other body can vault it - & neither can the CC. Post-graduates aren’t tested with the same rigour as children who are twenty years younger - they are expected to present work of a much higher quality; & as the CC makes the claims it does, it cannot be tested by the same standards as a body of purely human origin. In fact, to try it by such low standards is insulting to it, & in, Catholics, suggests lack of belief in its claims.
- holy
- apostolic
- members of the One True Church
- infallible in faith & morals
- commissioned by Christ
or to have any other of the numerous virtues, privileges & graces claimed by or on behalf the CC. Nor do they have a history full of crimes & horrors, such as the scandals that were covered up until 2002.
**To make matters very much worse, it has been extremely slow to take responsibility for the evils it has enabled, connived at, or caused. “The children of this world” have a better sense of what they owe to those whose lives they have ruined than this body seems to have - & that is a terrible disgrace.
**Where does the test by fruits leave the CC ? I have no idea, & wish I did
But haven’t the Protestant churches made even more exalted claims for themselves? They claim that the CC is wrong, and that they have it right. They claim to be the pure form of Xianity. So shouldn’t they hold themselves to an even highter standard? Isn’t it even worse, then, when a Baptist minister rapes a young boy? Wasn’t it the Baptist minister who knew better than the Catholic priest. Surely, the Baptist minister, who calls the CC the whore of Babylon, holds himself to a higher standard.But, educators don’t claim to be:
That is the crucial difference. The CC makes a set of claims - yet its history belies them. By making very exalted claims for itself, it has painted itself into a very small corner. Other Churches have paedophile pastors, but other Church do not make the absolute for their own legitimacy & unfailing rightness that the CC does. The CC does make such claims - so it cannot be tested by more lenient ones; it has made that impossible. It has set the bar so high that no other body can vault it - & neither can the CC. Post-graduates aren’t tested with the same rigour as children who are twenty years younger - they are expected to present work of a much higher quality; & as the CC makes the claims it does, it cannot be tested by the same standards as a body of purely human origin. In fact, to try it by such low standards is insulting to it, & in, Catholics, suggests lack of belief in its claims.
- holy
- apostolic
- members of the One True Church
- infallible in faith & morals
- commissioned by Christ
or to have any other of the numerous virtues, privileges & graces claimed by or on behalf the CC. Nor do they have a history full of crimes & horrors, such as the scandals that were covered up until 2002.
**To make matters very much worse, it has been extremely slow to take responsibility for the evils it has enabled, connived at, or caused. “The children of this world” have a better sense of what they owe to those whose lives they have ruined than this body seems to have - & that is a terrible disgrace.
**Where does the test by fruits leave the CC ? I have no idea, & wish I did
rabbiwatch.com/
Been a Protestant all my life. I’ve never heard anyone fear the Pope or fear that the Catholic Church is going to “take over.”
Yeah? Well, that’s because the Roman Catholic organization has a PR engine that has succeeded in covering THAT up along with the sex abuse scandals!
I remember a Journey Home program where the person, as a child, would be in the family car and when they passed the local Catholic Church the mother would comment that that was where the Catholics kept their weapons to kill the Christians when the time came.