P
Has anyone noticed that non-believers won't take the CC seriously because of the scandals of the past and present?
- Status
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paarsurrey
Guest
Hi
The main problem of Christianity in the West is the next generation is becoming AtheistsAgnostics secretly and silently. How to change that trend; that is the big question. Hitherto they are not organized; but someday they could become. It is question of the survival of the Catholicism. Am I right?
Thanks
M
melbourne_guy
Guest
Very right. Im 20 and i was raised at a catholic school and i can safely say about 90% didnt care about catholicism. I dont think catholics actually realise how much damage was done over the past 30 years. Priest pedophile jokes have to be one of the most popular genre of jokes to my generation.IMO If there was any justice in this world the cc should have gone bankrupt, and all there possesions liquidated, when they were getting sued by all the victims, and started from scratch with no money at all.
N
NDfan
Guest
Kenmd I don’t disagree that there are sinners within the church. There always will be. But does that mean they can’t deliver a moral message? That would imply that no one can preach a good message.
PEACE
R
ralphinal
Guest
If a soldier is guilty of a war crime, and his comanding officers cover it up, when it is discovered, do you impeach the president? Here is the problem. In the 1960s, when this **** started, the idea was that counciling and confession would fix the sinners. They were very wrong. In reality, there is nothing short of a mirical that can. Even today, people think that pedophiles can be treated. I would like to point out that I am not absolving the Bishops that shifted bad ones around. I am saying that it was their decision and they made a bad one.
I understand what you are saying, but you are missing the point. The CHurch did not do it. The people in the Church did. Look at the FLDS thing now. That church is encouraging child abuse and molestation. It is in their faith. This was not in ours. Now, do I think more can be done to make sure it does not happen again, yes. But the past is past. All we can do is help others heal and prevent it from reoccuring. Besides, the main issue was not pedophilia, it was sexual advances between men and post pubescent boys. Not that that makes it any better, but it is more tied to diviant homosexual behavior, like NAMBLA.Someone who finds a man in need & leaves him to die is as truly responsible for his death as though he had murdered him. It’s called neglect. The CC does not have to command priests to abuse people - it can be responsible for the lives that are ruined by such actions, by its neglect.
"The Church did not fail the people" ??? That sort of “excuse” only goes to show how utterly unworthy of trust the Church is. That kind of pitiful evasion is precisely what has made the Church’s name synonymous not with goodness, kindness, honesty, but with lies, prevarication, deceit, obstructiveness, shamelessness, arrogance, & other vices.
As a rule, we have never really argued on here. I hope you understand that I have no issue with you.
K
kesa82
Guest
revealed scientific truth? I don’t know. When I was a child it was taken for granted that dinosaurs were just large reptiles. They were cold-blooded, slow, stupid, and most of them waddled along in a`half stoop or squat. Now they want you to forget that dogma, or, if not, they want to explain it away as, " those scientists were backward, unimformed, or stupid. "
This is just one example, but there are many many examples of science changing its story repeatedly.
I think these particular attacks on the church have been so successful, and have done so much damage, because CONVENTIONAL, CONSERVATIVE HETEROSEXUALS have actually become political “bedfellows” with gays and other deviants.
Why?
Because the idea that all sexual oreintation or taste is not subject to free will convieniently explains away your own bad choices, and convientiently explains away / sort-of-justifies sadism.
But no, you can’t have it both ways. either the choices you make in sex are choices, and subject to free will, or they are not.
If they are, then everyone is subject to the same censures and punishments.
And if they are not, then of course self-defense is justified… but sadism never is.
M
magisterfaust
Guest
here’s a scenario for you…Especially the paedophilia/sex abuse scandals. When the Church has a public opinion on something, such as a morality topic, people will say that the CC are hypocritical and “irrelevant”, because of their crimes/wrongdoings of the past.
For example, the CC has complained about the languange on Gordon Ramsey’s shows: news.com.au/entertainment/comments/0,26700,23648304-10229,00.html, and there are so many people who dismiss the Church because they are complaining about language, yet they protected pedophiles etc. Read some of the public comments. It hurt me to read them. People are disgusted with the Church and with religion.
Will the CC ever lose the this reputation in secular societies? Should the CC back off from the public spotlight, or should it become even more public?
What would you say in this scenario:
Non-Christian: How dare your Church tell me and the rest of society what to do when some of the worst crimes were committed by your church, even in recent times. Why should I listen to the what the Church says?
You/me:
(Then what should a Catholic say?)
Catholic priest has evidence/knowledge of another catholic priest involved in the abuse of children. he cannot report this to any one outside the CC for fear of being excommunicated. Meanwhile the abuse continues. The CC cares/ cared more about it reputation than the abuse and endless suffering of children.
Are you suprised when the CC is slated for its double sided attitude to morality.:tiphat:
M
mercygate
Guest
Could you please explain the bolded text?
M
magisterfaust
Guest
So is it not true that the word from the vatican said that reporting abuse to the authorities could result in excommunication? Anyway Why have there been so many cases of the CC being aware of abuse within the ranks, but choosing to deal with it “in house” and not reprting it to the authorities
M
mercygate
Guest
I think you may be referring to a document from the1960s that has been making its way around the Internet that specifically referred to inappropriate solicitations during the Sacrament of Confession. It did not have to do with the current sex scandals. The excommunication would have been attendant upon violation of the seal of confession. It had nothing to do with coming upon knowledge in the public forum.
W
whiteknite
Guest
I think maybe for 10 yrs maybe??
K
kristie_m
Guest
Not in the least.
Because the church is made up of fallible people, it is bound to make mistakes. That doesn’t mean that it’s teachings on faith and morality are wrong.
Think of it in terms of a family…I sometimes make mistakes and SIN in front of my kids. Does this make me a bad parent? No…it makes me human. Do my kids still need to listen and obey me when I tell them that it’s not okay to lie and steal? You’d better believe it.
While hierarchy of the church made mistakes in how they handled the issue of pedophile priests, they have owned up to it, and are trying to make amends. Does that same Church, that was founded by Jesus Christ, still have the authority to teach me right from wrong? You bet.
While some might view this as hypocracy, it doesn’t make the Church WRONG for teaching the same moral truths it always has.
L
LRThunder
Guest
If he obtains the evidence/knowledge outside of Confession, then he most certainly can and should report this to the proper authorities.
J
joe370
Guest
Part1
That’s not something I can sum up with a few paragraphs. I will show you what Jesus and the bible had to say about these perverse, vile, sex abusers acting out in lasciviously on hopeless victims, and doing so in the holiest place on the planet, the church which is the the “house of living God.”
Catholics believe in a visible, apostolic, institutional Church as well as a mystical body. Jesus foresaw that there would be wheat and weeds in His Church, so the fact that it is so, should not be surprising to anyone. “Thats not something I can sum up with a few paragraphs. I will show you what Jesus and the bible had to say about these perverse, vile, sex abusers acting out in lasciviously on hopeless victims, and doing so in the holiest place on the planet, the church which is the the “house of living God.”
Catholics believe in a visible, apostolic, institutional Church as well as a mystical body. Jesus foresaw that there would be wheat and weeds in His Church, so the fact that it is so, should not be surprising to anyone. “Then said he unto the disciples, It is impossible but that offenses will come: but woe unto him, the rough whom they come! It were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones.” The fate of all those wolves in sheep’s clothing, past present and future, parading around in the Church which is the House of the Living God, the mystical Body of Christ and the Pillar and Foundation of Truth with Jesus as the head over all of it —is, according to the bible infinitely worse than anything they did while still alive; eternal damnation! “But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation.” Mark 3:29 “Take heed unto yourselves, and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit hath made you bishops, to feed the church of the Lord which he purchased with his own blood. I know that after my departing grievous wolves shall enter in among you, not sparing the flock; and from among your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after them…” Acts 20:28-30 This was Paul’s last admonition to the church, “And when he had thus spoken, he kneeled down, and prayed with them all. And they all wept sore, and fell on Paul’s neck, and kissed him, Sorrowing most of all for the words which he spake, that they should see his face no more. And they accompanied him unto the ship.” Acts 20:36-38
Sin, even at high levels in the Church and I am including protestant churches and evangelicals, should not shock anyone. One would be foolish to expect otherwise in any human institution. People within the church will fail, but the Church will endure – because it is God’s will: “I will build my church; and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.” (Matt. 16:18). So to answer your question, “Why should I listen to the what the Church says?” --is quite simple, because Jesus said its worse enemy would not prevail against her and that the Holy Spirit would be guiding that church through every century until the end of time! “Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.” Matthew 28:20 --The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God, the life-giving power of God, the promulgator of Jesus’ work in the salvation and eternal destiny of men and women. Jesus Christ promised His apostles that “the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you” John 14:2. Since the Holy Spirit is to be with the church through every century, until the end of time, it only stands to reason that the Catholic Apostolic Church is still being taught all things by the infallible Holy Spirit, making that church’s teaching on matters of faith and morals infallible. The Holy Spirit continues the work of Jesus through inspired human beings. He carries on the redemption and sanctification of man. He reveals and preaches the good tidings through people, through prophets, the Fathers, and the saints of the Church. The Holy Spirit speaks to man’s hearts and transforms him into a new creation, through repentance and Christ’s teachings.
That’s not something I can sum up with a few paragraphs. I will show you what Jesus and the bible had to say about these perverse, vile, sex abusers acting out in lasciviously on hopeless victims, and doing so in the holiest place on the planet, the church which is the the “house of living God.”
Catholics believe in a visible, apostolic, institutional Church as well as a mystical body. Jesus foresaw that there would be wheat and weeds in His Church, so the fact that it is so, should not be surprising to anyone. “Thats not something I can sum up with a few paragraphs. I will show you what Jesus and the bible had to say about these perverse, vile, sex abusers acting out in lasciviously on hopeless victims, and doing so in the holiest place on the planet, the church which is the the “house of living God.”
Catholics believe in a visible, apostolic, institutional Church as well as a mystical body. Jesus foresaw that there would be wheat and weeds in His Church, so the fact that it is so, should not be surprising to anyone. “Then said he unto the disciples, It is impossible but that offenses will come: but woe unto him, the rough whom they come! It were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones.” The fate of all those wolves in sheep’s clothing, past present and future, parading around in the Church which is the House of the Living God, the mystical Body of Christ and the Pillar and Foundation of Truth with Jesus as the head over all of it —is, according to the bible infinitely worse than anything they did while still alive; eternal damnation! “But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation.” Mark 3:29 “Take heed unto yourselves, and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit hath made you bishops, to feed the church of the Lord which he purchased with his own blood. I know that after my departing grievous wolves shall enter in among you, not sparing the flock; and from among your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after them…” Acts 20:28-30 This was Paul’s last admonition to the church, “And when he had thus spoken, he kneeled down, and prayed with them all. And they all wept sore, and fell on Paul’s neck, and kissed him, Sorrowing most of all for the words which he spake, that they should see his face no more. And they accompanied him unto the ship.” Acts 20:36-38
Sin, even at high levels in the Church and I am including protestant churches and evangelicals, should not shock anyone. One would be foolish to expect otherwise in any human institution. People within the church will fail, but the Church will endure – because it is God’s will: “I will build my church; and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.” (Matt. 16:18). So to answer your question, “Why should I listen to the what the Church says?” --is quite simple, because Jesus said its worse enemy would not prevail against her and that the Holy Spirit would be guiding that church through every century until the end of time! “Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.” Matthew 28:20 --The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God, the life-giving power of God, the promulgator of Jesus’ work in the salvation and eternal destiny of men and women. Jesus Christ promised His apostles that “the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you” John 14:2. Since the Holy Spirit is to be with the church through every century, until the end of time, it only stands to reason that the Catholic Apostolic Church is still being taught all things by the infallible Holy Spirit, making that church’s teaching on matters of faith and morals infallible. The Holy Spirit continues the work of Jesus through inspired human beings. He carries on the redemption and sanctification of man. He reveals and preaches the good tidings through people, through prophets, the Fathers, and the saints of the Church. The Holy Spirit speaks to man’s hearts and transforms him into a new creation, through repentance and Christ’s teachings.
J
joe370
Guest
Part 2
Lets take a second and see what the Bible says about the Catholic Apostolic Church before we continue with your question; I think it’s very important: “Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.” Eph. 3:21 Jesus Christ passed on the AUTHORITY to His Apostles to act in His behalf: Luke 10:16, “He who HEARS YOU, HEARS ME; AND HE WHO REJECTS YOU, REJECTS ME; AND HE WHO REJECTS ME, REJECTS HIM WHO SENT ME.” John 20:21, “…As the Father has sent Me, I ALSO SEND YOU.” When He had said this, he breathed upon them, and said to them, “RECEIVE THE HOLY SPIRIT; WHOSE SINS YOU SHALL FORGIVE, THEY ARE FORGIVEN THEM; WHOSE SINS YOU SHALL RETAIN, THEY ARE RETAINED.” Jesus Christ founded His ONE Church: Matt 16:18, "And I say to thee, thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build My Church."He who is the TRUTH, Jesus Christ, did not say Churches, did He? In chapter 18 of Matthew, Jesus Christ made His Church the FINAL AUTHORITY ON FAITH AND MORALS: Matt 18:15-18,“But if your brother sin against you, go and show him his fault between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have won your brother. But if he does not listen to you, take with you one or two more so that on the word of two or three witnesses every word may be confirmed. AND IF HE REFUSE TO HEAR THEM, APPEAL TO THE CHURCH, BUT IF HE REFUSES TO HEAR EVEN THE CHURCH, LET HIM BE TO YOU AS THE HEATHEN AND THE PUBLICAN.” He who is TRUTH, Jesus Christ, did not say appeal to the Bible, did He? Eph 1:22, "And all things He made subject under His feet, and Him he gave as Head over all the Church, which is indeed His Body, the completion of Him who fills all with all.” The Church which Jesus Christ founded does indeed have the FINAL AUTHORITY, since Jesus Himself is the Head of His Body, the Catholic Apostolic Church. Now that the Apostles have the AUTHORITY, to speak in the PERSON OF CHRIST (2Cor 2:10), they exercise that AUTHORITY. Now that Christ’s Church has the final AUTHORITY, who, or what becomes the Guardian of the TRUTH? Is it the Bible; not according to the bible? 1Tim 3:15, “…but in order that you may know, if I am delayed, HOW TO CONDUCT YOURSELF IN THE HOUSE OF GOD, WHICH IS THE CHURCH OF THE LIVING GOD, THE PILLAR AND FOUNDATION OF THE TRUTH.” This verse clearly reveals the guardian of TRUTH. What is a foundation? It is the base upon which the Church rests, the “Rock” upon which Jesus Christ built His Church. What is a “pillar”? It is something which holds something up, it “upholds” it. The Church which Jesus Christ founded now has the final AUTHORITY and the task of being the Guardian of the TRUTH, and of upholding it.“By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as an expert builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should be careful how he builds. For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ.”1Cor 3:10-11,Today we see thousands of new, disparate and dissimilar foundations in the protestant churches, claiming to be the true Guardian of the TRUTH, based on the traditions of mere men, “Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner [stone]…” Eph 2:20.
To sum up, the church Jesus established 2000 years ago is built on Simon Bar-Jona, renamed Peter (kepha) with the apostles and prophets forming the foundation and Jesus, the indispensable, irreplaceable cornerstone. The church Jesus established is the House of the Living God, the Pillar and Foundation of Truth. And finally, the church Jesus established is the Mystical Body of Jesus Christ with Jesus the head over all of it. Jesus sees everything that goes on in His church, which is the House of the living God. He sees all because the church is his mystical Body and He is the head of that body believers.
Jesus sees apostates and He sees saints in His Body; He sees both the chaff and the wheat in His Body; He sees the good sheep and wolves in sheep’ s clothing in His Body, and these evildoers, one day will meet Jesus Christ face to face, possibly be shown what could have been (eternal heaven) and then shown what will be; total separation from God FOREVER. Matthew 7:21–23 implies that there are many counterfeit believers, since even some of those who prophesy, cast out demons, and “do many mighty works” in Jesus’ name will be cast from Christ’s presence at the Judgment, and he will say to them, “I never knew you; depart from me, you evildoers.”
Lets take a second and see what the Bible says about the Catholic Apostolic Church before we continue with your question; I think it’s very important: “Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.” Eph. 3:21 Jesus Christ passed on the AUTHORITY to His Apostles to act in His behalf: Luke 10:16, “He who HEARS YOU, HEARS ME; AND HE WHO REJECTS YOU, REJECTS ME; AND HE WHO REJECTS ME, REJECTS HIM WHO SENT ME.” John 20:21, “…As the Father has sent Me, I ALSO SEND YOU.” When He had said this, he breathed upon them, and said to them, “RECEIVE THE HOLY SPIRIT; WHOSE SINS YOU SHALL FORGIVE, THEY ARE FORGIVEN THEM; WHOSE SINS YOU SHALL RETAIN, THEY ARE RETAINED.” Jesus Christ founded His ONE Church: Matt 16:18, "And I say to thee, thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build My Church."He who is the TRUTH, Jesus Christ, did not say Churches, did He? In chapter 18 of Matthew, Jesus Christ made His Church the FINAL AUTHORITY ON FAITH AND MORALS: Matt 18:15-18,“But if your brother sin against you, go and show him his fault between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have won your brother. But if he does not listen to you, take with you one or two more so that on the word of two or three witnesses every word may be confirmed. AND IF HE REFUSE TO HEAR THEM, APPEAL TO THE CHURCH, BUT IF HE REFUSES TO HEAR EVEN THE CHURCH, LET HIM BE TO YOU AS THE HEATHEN AND THE PUBLICAN.” He who is TRUTH, Jesus Christ, did not say appeal to the Bible, did He? Eph 1:22, "And all things He made subject under His feet, and Him he gave as Head over all the Church, which is indeed His Body, the completion of Him who fills all with all.” The Church which Jesus Christ founded does indeed have the FINAL AUTHORITY, since Jesus Himself is the Head of His Body, the Catholic Apostolic Church. Now that the Apostles have the AUTHORITY, to speak in the PERSON OF CHRIST (2Cor 2:10), they exercise that AUTHORITY. Now that Christ’s Church has the final AUTHORITY, who, or what becomes the Guardian of the TRUTH? Is it the Bible; not according to the bible? 1Tim 3:15, “…but in order that you may know, if I am delayed, HOW TO CONDUCT YOURSELF IN THE HOUSE OF GOD, WHICH IS THE CHURCH OF THE LIVING GOD, THE PILLAR AND FOUNDATION OF THE TRUTH.” This verse clearly reveals the guardian of TRUTH. What is a foundation? It is the base upon which the Church rests, the “Rock” upon which Jesus Christ built His Church. What is a “pillar”? It is something which holds something up, it “upholds” it. The Church which Jesus Christ founded now has the final AUTHORITY and the task of being the Guardian of the TRUTH, and of upholding it.“By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as an expert builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should be careful how he builds. For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ.”1Cor 3:10-11,Today we see thousands of new, disparate and dissimilar foundations in the protestant churches, claiming to be the true Guardian of the TRUTH, based on the traditions of mere men, “Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner [stone]…” Eph 2:20.
To sum up, the church Jesus established 2000 years ago is built on Simon Bar-Jona, renamed Peter (kepha) with the apostles and prophets forming the foundation and Jesus, the indispensable, irreplaceable cornerstone. The church Jesus established is the House of the Living God, the Pillar and Foundation of Truth. And finally, the church Jesus established is the Mystical Body of Jesus Christ with Jesus the head over all of it. Jesus sees everything that goes on in His church, which is the House of the living God. He sees all because the church is his mystical Body and He is the head of that body believers.
Jesus sees apostates and He sees saints in His Body; He sees both the chaff and the wheat in His Body; He sees the good sheep and wolves in sheep’ s clothing in His Body, and these evildoers, one day will meet Jesus Christ face to face, possibly be shown what could have been (eternal heaven) and then shown what will be; total separation from God FOREVER. Matthew 7:21–23 implies that there are many counterfeit believers, since even some of those who prophesy, cast out demons, and “do many mighty works” in Jesus’ name will be cast from Christ’s presence at the Judgment, and he will say to them, “I never knew you; depart from me, you evildoers.”
C
Church_Militant
Guest
of pedophiles. Saying that the church is ‘made up of sinful people’ therefore we should look past its wrongs, is a first-class cop-out.I won’t even comment as to what I think you’re rash generalization really is FULL of…:irish1:
J
joe370
Guest
Part 3
Now back to your question; the same question should rightfully apply to the protestant churches as well, starting with the 16th century reformers that spearheaded the movement, e.g. Martin Luther and John Calvin etc. They did horrible things to people in the name of god. I’m not judging or condemning, I’m simply pointing out the facts. If protestants look at the historical record, instead of the bible which plainly says: “Take heed unto yourselves, and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit hath made you bishops, to feed the church of the Lord which he purchased with his own blood. I know that after my departing grievous wolves shall enter in among you, not sparing the flock; and from among your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after them…” Acts 20:28 “it is impossible that scandals should not come: but woe to him through whom they come. Luke 17:1 (Here we see Jesus starkly stating that it is impossible that scandals should not come but woe to him through whom they come. The scandals that manifest through evildoers in the FATHERS HOUSE, the church are destined to a place, I don’t even like to think about, and they will be their for all eternity to think about their insidious, reprehensible actions. "and a man’s foes shall be they of his own household.” (the bible says the church is the house of the living god meaning there will be good and bad people in it) Matthew 10:36 ---------and concludes that the catholic church is untrustworthy, then the protestant churches stemming from the protestant reformation (1500 years removed from the Apostles) from are untrustworthy as well, and should be judged by the same standard even though the bible says, "do not judge, or you too will be judged. for in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.” Matthew 7:1
We are responsible for our own spiritual development, including proper instruction. God gave us the ability to reason and separate the wheat from the chaff, doctrinally speaking. And he gave us the Holy Spirit via the church. If anyone desires to know true Catholic teaching, it’s easy to obtain the new Catechism of the Catholic Church, or the documents of Vatican II, or browse the Internet, or watch EWTN. If non-Catholics simply rely on the repeated boiler plate lies spoken by some protestants, not all protestants, e.g. catholics worship Mary and statues etc. then the truths of the C.C. will forever remain a mystery.
It is a mistake to think that the present crisis in the Church disproves or negates that the Catholic Church is what it claims to be. God has only us sinful, rebellious humans to work with. Bishops and priests have been lax in their duty (to put it mildly), but they will stand accountable before God. The Bible says, “Not many of you should become teachers, my brothers and sisters, because you know that we will be judged more strictly. James 3:1 That speaks volumes!
One can never judge a communion by the views of its members, or by polls and sociological surveys. If this is the proper method, then there is no Church on the earth. One always will find heterodoxy (as internally or externally defined) among the masses, or the people in the pews, in every Christian group. Jesus assumed this would be the case, and spoke of it frequently. Matt. 3:12; 13:24–30, 47–50; 22:1–14; 24:1–13; 25:14–30). Paul concurs (cf. Acts 20:30; 2 Tim. 2:15–20). As usual, the biblical writers anticipate what would be a stumbling block throughout Church history.
Sinners (and dissenters) are in the true Church. Even Judas was regarded as a true apostle. Matt. 10:4; Mark 3:19; John 6:70–71; Acts 1:17 Even though dissent and corruption are troubling and scandalous of their own accord, the attainment of moral purity is irrelevant with regard to the determination of which Church is divinely established by Christ.
In Paul’s mind, the Corinthian church did not cease to be part of the true universal Church even when he was rebuking its members for exceedingly serious and widespread sins 1 Cor. 1:2; 3:1–4; 5:1–2; 6:1–8; 11:17–22; 2 Cor. 1:1; 11:2–4. Nor was it said that there was no institutional Church because of the early controversy over the Judaizers spoken of in the book of Acts. Acts 15:5.
Now back to your question; the same question should rightfully apply to the protestant churches as well, starting with the 16th century reformers that spearheaded the movement, e.g. Martin Luther and John Calvin etc. They did horrible things to people in the name of god. I’m not judging or condemning, I’m simply pointing out the facts. If protestants look at the historical record, instead of the bible which plainly says: “Take heed unto yourselves, and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit hath made you bishops, to feed the church of the Lord which he purchased with his own blood. I know that after my departing grievous wolves shall enter in among you, not sparing the flock; and from among your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after them…” Acts 20:28 “it is impossible that scandals should not come: but woe to him through whom they come. Luke 17:1 (Here we see Jesus starkly stating that it is impossible that scandals should not come but woe to him through whom they come. The scandals that manifest through evildoers in the FATHERS HOUSE, the church are destined to a place, I don’t even like to think about, and they will be their for all eternity to think about their insidious, reprehensible actions. "and a man’s foes shall be they of his own household.” (the bible says the church is the house of the living god meaning there will be good and bad people in it) Matthew 10:36 ---------and concludes that the catholic church is untrustworthy, then the protestant churches stemming from the protestant reformation (1500 years removed from the Apostles) from are untrustworthy as well, and should be judged by the same standard even though the bible says, "do not judge, or you too will be judged. for in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.” Matthew 7:1
We are responsible for our own spiritual development, including proper instruction. God gave us the ability to reason and separate the wheat from the chaff, doctrinally speaking. And he gave us the Holy Spirit via the church. If anyone desires to know true Catholic teaching, it’s easy to obtain the new Catechism of the Catholic Church, or the documents of Vatican II, or browse the Internet, or watch EWTN. If non-Catholics simply rely on the repeated boiler plate lies spoken by some protestants, not all protestants, e.g. catholics worship Mary and statues etc. then the truths of the C.C. will forever remain a mystery.
It is a mistake to think that the present crisis in the Church disproves or negates that the Catholic Church is what it claims to be. God has only us sinful, rebellious humans to work with. Bishops and priests have been lax in their duty (to put it mildly), but they will stand accountable before God. The Bible says, “Not many of you should become teachers, my brothers and sisters, because you know that we will be judged more strictly. James 3:1 That speaks volumes!
One can never judge a communion by the views of its members, or by polls and sociological surveys. If this is the proper method, then there is no Church on the earth. One always will find heterodoxy (as internally or externally defined) among the masses, or the people in the pews, in every Christian group. Jesus assumed this would be the case, and spoke of it frequently. Matt. 3:12; 13:24–30, 47–50; 22:1–14; 24:1–13; 25:14–30). Paul concurs (cf. Acts 20:30; 2 Tim. 2:15–20). As usual, the biblical writers anticipate what would be a stumbling block throughout Church history.
Sinners (and dissenters) are in the true Church. Even Judas was regarded as a true apostle. Matt. 10:4; Mark 3:19; John 6:70–71; Acts 1:17 Even though dissent and corruption are troubling and scandalous of their own accord, the attainment of moral purity is irrelevant with regard to the determination of which Church is divinely established by Christ.
In Paul’s mind, the Corinthian church did not cease to be part of the true universal Church even when he was rebuking its members for exceedingly serious and widespread sins 1 Cor. 1:2; 3:1–4; 5:1–2; 6:1–8; 11:17–22; 2 Cor. 1:1; 11:2–4. Nor was it said that there was no institutional Church because of the early controversy over the Judaizers spoken of in the book of Acts. Acts 15:5.
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Part 4
Given the reality of original sin, such problems cannot be avoided and always will be with us. Therefore, one can go only by the official teaching of any group and whether or not it institutionalizes and sanctions division and schism (not to mention various moral and doctrinal errors). The Catholic Church is criticized on the basis of dissent in practice within its ranks rather than by what it actually teaches, and has taught consistently, through the ages.
The biblical support for the concept of a Church containing sinners --yet remaining a true Church --is abundant. The parable of the wheat and weeds (Matt. 13:24–30, 36–43) reads as if the weeds are at least equal in number to the wheat. A moment’s reflection on the proliferation of uncontrolled weeds in any lawn will bring this point home. This is also apparent in the similar pronouncements about wheat and chaff (Matt. 3:12; Luke 3:17).
Since every wheat plant has chaff (e.g. the worthless part of the plant), it would seem that we are talking about a 50/50 proposition. I wouldn’t push the analogy too far, as the proportion is not the essential aspect of it, but it does lend itself to an interpretation that the nonbelievers and dissenters mixed in with the elect and orthodox will be many, not few. After all, Matthew 24:10 states that “many will fall away.”
Matthew 7:21–23 implies that there are many counterfeit believers, since even some of those who prophesy, cast out demons, and “do many mighty works” in Jesus’ name will be cast from Christ’s presence at the Judgment, and he will say to them, “I never knew you; depart from me, you evildoers.” Since most of us are doing far less than acts of this magnitude (which outwardly suggest a commitment to Christ), it stands to reason that there are many people who go to Mass, etc., who will not be saved, and hence are weeds (Luke 13:25–28).
Jesus also asked, “When the Son of man comes, will he find faith on earth?” Luke 18:8 This doesn’t present a rosy picture about the great numbers of faithful. And again, “Some one said to him, ‘Lord, will those who are saved be few?’ And he said to them, ‘Strive to enter by the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able’” (Luke 13:23–24).
A straightforward reading of Paul’s chastisement of the Corinthians lends itself to the view that their problems were massive. His rebuke concerning their divisiveness (1 Cor. 3:1-4) seems directed at the group as a whole, not just a few. He speaks of the incest of one man, yet the whole body is rebuked for not having “mourned” that, and for failing to “remove” the incorrigible sinner (1 Cor. 5:1–2).
Finally, in 2 Corinthians 11:4, Paul speaks of the church as a whole being prone to chasing after false teachers. This leads him into his famous “boasting” discourse. He is touting his own qualifications as an apostle so that they won’t go running after false apostles, and will keep to the true path (2 Cor. 12:20–21).
Given the reality of original sin, such problems cannot be avoided and always will be with us. Therefore, one can go only by the official teaching of any group and whether or not it institutionalizes and sanctions division and schism (not to mention various moral and doctrinal errors). The Catholic Church is criticized on the basis of dissent in practice within its ranks rather than by what it actually teaches, and has taught consistently, through the ages.
The biblical support for the concept of a Church containing sinners --yet remaining a true Church --is abundant. The parable of the wheat and weeds (Matt. 13:24–30, 36–43) reads as if the weeds are at least equal in number to the wheat. A moment’s reflection on the proliferation of uncontrolled weeds in any lawn will bring this point home. This is also apparent in the similar pronouncements about wheat and chaff (Matt. 3:12; Luke 3:17).
Since every wheat plant has chaff (e.g. the worthless part of the plant), it would seem that we are talking about a 50/50 proposition. I wouldn’t push the analogy too far, as the proportion is not the essential aspect of it, but it does lend itself to an interpretation that the nonbelievers and dissenters mixed in with the elect and orthodox will be many, not few. After all, Matthew 24:10 states that “many will fall away.”
Matthew 7:21–23 implies that there are many counterfeit believers, since even some of those who prophesy, cast out demons, and “do many mighty works” in Jesus’ name will be cast from Christ’s presence at the Judgment, and he will say to them, “I never knew you; depart from me, you evildoers.” Since most of us are doing far less than acts of this magnitude (which outwardly suggest a commitment to Christ), it stands to reason that there are many people who go to Mass, etc., who will not be saved, and hence are weeds (Luke 13:25–28).
Jesus also asked, “When the Son of man comes, will he find faith on earth?” Luke 18:8 This doesn’t present a rosy picture about the great numbers of faithful. And again, “Some one said to him, ‘Lord, will those who are saved be few?’ And he said to them, ‘Strive to enter by the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able’” (Luke 13:23–24).
A straightforward reading of Paul’s chastisement of the Corinthians lends itself to the view that their problems were massive. His rebuke concerning their divisiveness (1 Cor. 3:1-4) seems directed at the group as a whole, not just a few. He speaks of the incest of one man, yet the whole body is rebuked for not having “mourned” that, and for failing to “remove” the incorrigible sinner (1 Cor. 5:1–2).
Finally, in 2 Corinthians 11:4, Paul speaks of the church as a whole being prone to chasing after false teachers. This leads him into his famous “boasting” discourse. He is touting his own qualifications as an apostle so that they won’t go running after false apostles, and will keep to the true path (2 Cor. 12:20–21).
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