Has anyone noticed that non-believers won't take the CC seriously because of the scandals of the past and present?

[joe370]

Part 6
The above view is anchored in reality: Scripture, Church history, and reason (as well as original sin and the resultant fallenness of mankind). God used Balaam’s *** to convey his truth; he made an eternal covenant with a murderer and adulterer (David); he chose another murderer to be the foremost apostle (Paul), and a wavering wimp to lead his Church (Peter). Of course, it would be preferable for the Catholic Church and all its members to be perfectly holy. But this is the real world. Sin does not rule out the possibility of a true Church. And no one needs to drive a wedge between Jesus and his ordained structure of the Church. The truth is to be believed even if one person in the world believes it.

The good things in Protestantism still can be (and are) affirmed by the Catholic Church. It’s not an either/or proposition when it comes to individual beneficial spiritual acts and beliefs. But when one discusses what the one “Church” is, we must draw the line and state that it is the Catholic Church —because of apostolic succession and because it is the only plausible choice that possesses the Nicene Creed’s four marks of the Church in their undiluted fullness.

So to summarize, should we just give up on the C.C. established by Jesus Christ, because some twisted pedophiles infested the church which is Jesus’ body; the house of the living god; the pillar and foundation of truth? Can you imagine how Jesus must feel, considering He is the the Head of His Mystical Body, the Church! Jesus knew this would happen long before the church was established: “Take heed unto yourselves, and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit hath made you bishops, to feed the church of the Lord which he purchased with his own blood. I know that after my departing grievous wolves shall enter in among you, not sparing the flock; and from among your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after them…” Acts 20:28 — Jesus, knew full well that evil parasites would enter into His Mystical Body, the Church, the house of the living God, and pillar and foundation of truth, and He still allowed it to happen. WHY? Because He is GOD and knew His Body, the Church and its members, regardless of the chaff mixed in with the wheat, would prevail. “And I also say unto thee, that thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.” Matthew 16:18

To say the Catholic Apostolic Church has apostatized is to call GOD A LIAR ON SO MANY LEVELS! God can’t fail; infallibility and love are His divine characteristics, but men and women can fail, and Jesus allows this to happen out of his love for his children. He loves us so much by giving each and everyone of us free will. What we choose to do with that free will during our lifetime, will ultimately lead us to two doors after we die: First door —eternal glory with the Trinity, the angels and our long lost loved ones, or Second door-- an eternal separation from the Trinity, the angels and all those who passed before you. I believe in purgatory, and I believe that many, once gone through some sort of purgation process will step into that first door.

God bless…

I hope this has helped…

 

[magisterfaust]

I think you may be referring to a document from the1960s that has been making its way around the Internet that specifically referred to inappropriate solicitations during the Sacrament of Confession. It did not have to do with the current sex scandals. The excommunication would have been attendant upon violation of the seal of confession. It had nothing to do with coming upon knowledge in the public forum.

Thanx for clearing that up for me. Much appreciated:thumbsup:

 

[kalt]

"Originally Posted by O.S. Luke
Been a Protestant all my life. I’ve never heard anyone fear the Pope or fear that the Catholic Church is going to “take over.”

What a load."

This is exaclty why there is such a fuss when a Catholic runs for president. Every Catholic who has run, has been asked whether they will or won’t do “the Vatican’s will”.

There is a great fear that the Vatican will get a toe hold if a Catholic is elected. At the very least, they’re afraid that the CC’s teachings will be made law. (abortion, birth control, marriage, death penalty, etc.)

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

This statement is saying that you know how the Church (that is, members of the Church) would behave if her claims were true. Are you prepared to state that you know how Catholics would behave if the claims of the Catholic Church were true?

To put it in more concrete terms, how many sexually abusive priests would there have been in the Church in the 60s, 70s and 80s if the claims of the Church were true?

**I don’t think that consequence does follow - & even if it did, that doesn’t disqualify the point made in my post: that the CC makes all sorts of claims, but seems very unwilling to be treated as though it believed them. It cannot complain if people judge it by the very exalted standards it is obviously well able to come up to, seeing that it claims so many exalted privileges. Or, if it cannot come up to them, maybe its claims are not true. In either case, it is in no position to disparage other Christians or other Churches. **​

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

You mention all of these “crimes and horrors”, and yet the Catholic Church is also responsible for more GOOD than ANY other institution in the entire history of the world.

**It is not being blamed for doing good. It doesn’t matter how much good it may have done: are murderers to be pardoned because they are kind to animals or help the aged ? Of course not: they are blamed for the repulsive crimes they commit, & punished for them. **​

The very size of the church makes its flaws more ominous and apparent, but that should not overwhelm the absolutely gigantic contributions that Catholicism has made to Western Civilization and the world. I should also mention that virtually every other denomination out there has had some very serious scandals in their past, whether it was 100,000 peasants massacred due to the refusal of Luther to help them, to Calvin burning heretics, to Puritans holding witch trials, and Anglicans executing Catholics.

**If the CC tries to evade criticism by throwing filth at its critics, it is going to find that such diversionary tactics do nothing but show how foul it is. If it had any sense of shame, that is one of the things it would not do. To act in that way is unspeakably revolting - it is no sense Christian. It is sickening, vile, horrible, shameful, atrocious, anti-Christian, a disgrace. How can people imagine that they are helping the CC by such a defence ? **​

**Blackening other groups & Churches does not make the CC any less guilty - if anything, such desperate reasoning only shows how unChristian it is. **

Yes! You get it exactly!!! The Catholic Church has INDEED set a bar so high that no other body can vault it, including itself. That is PRECISELY the point! As I explain to my students, you can think of it this way… The laws of earthly governments are set to the lowest possible acceptable standards to allow the greatest amount of freedom for its citizens. Anything less, and society would break down. The laws of the Catholic Church are purposely set to the highest possible standard. In other words, this would be the behavior and actions expected of perfect people in a utopia (or heaven). There is no possible way to live up to them, but they are set as the ultimate example. As humans, even those inside of the Vatican, we all live in-between these two sets of laws. Now, with regard to our personal lives, it is not enough to be just barely above society’s laws; we must strive to be as close to God’s law as possible. And yet, we will ALWAYS fail to be perfect.

**The scandals were not instances of “fail[ure] to be perfect” ****- that does not begin to describe what happened. **​

Every government on earth has incurred scandals throughout history, and yet, just because a government like the US has done corrupt things doesn’t mean that I think that it has lost its authority to govern me. Instead, I work to change it from the inside.

**The US government does not claim to have the authority claimed by the Papacy. One does not expect politicians to be Christians; many of them are not, in any sense. One does rather assume that bishops & cardinals will be Christians: that is the difference. **​

You might do well to research the Cluny Reform Movement within Catholic history. During this first period of corruption in the 900s AD, the Catholic Church successfully policed itself and cleaned up most of its act until the 1300s.

I have some knowledge of the period - I’m not sure St. Peter Damian would entirely agree with you. Cardinal Baronius called the tenth century the “pornocracy”, from the way in which the Papacy became the plaything of powerful Roman families.​

This is not necessarily unexpected for an institution that was trying to come to grips with such a large-scale problem from more than 10,000 miles away. Although the Vatican functions as a government, it has a surprisingly small staff to deal with such matters. From the time that the scandal broke until now has only been five years, and by Church standards, that’s really good.

**Rome has been aware of clerical molestation since the 1980s; the events revealed in 2002 were not the first, at all, for clerics & members of religious societies had been found guilty of such activities in England, Ireland, & elsewhere. **​

If it’s “a large-scale problem”, that contradicts those who say that very few priests have been involved.

It seems that the rate of sexual abuse has now sharply declined, and almost all new cases discovered have been from priests prior to the turn of the millenium. This in NO WAY excuses the actions of the bishops, because this was a mid-level scandal that also involved the shifting around of problem priests, but it is clear that Benedict XVI and the highest levels are now aware of the gravity of the situation, and taking appropriate action.

At least some one is not trying to excuse the bishops. Making excuses only makes this whole wretched business even less curable. This could not have happened unless the CC was very very sick. A** minor cold could not have caused as severe a fever as this is. If that is true for human health, how is it not equally applicable to the Church ? One has to ask such a question; the Church is not going to be any better if its deformities & sicknesses are hidden - any more than ours would be. **​

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

The Catholic Church teaches infallibly on matters of faith and morals. That’s not the same as what you said. The Catholic Church, made up of human beings, will not be perfect.

**How is its claiming to teach infallibly any contradiction of its disgusting behaviour ? **​

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I’m not sure what you’re disagreeing with in that post ?

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**There is a big difference between not being perfect, & covering up the repeated crimes of men who are a danger to their parishioners & to the young in particular. That has happened, again & again, in more than one country. Would the families of the victims of a serial murderer be satisfied on being told, “You have to remember, nobody’s perfect” ? No ? Then why should the families of clerical paedophiles, clerical rapists, clerical molesters, be satisfied by a wretched excuse such as “You have to remember, nobody’s perfect” ? Or are the laity nothing but fodder for the filthy lusts of pervert priests & pimping bishops ? **

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**If the Church had the slightest concern for the laity, why have so few bishops been removed ? What possible authority can bishops who moved known molesters from parish to parish, though they they knew they had committed crime after crime after crime, possibly have ? That is the question. But that is not imperfect, it’s not even dysfunctional - it’s criminally irresponsible. And what is so damnable is that the Church is so organised that there is very little the laity can do about this. **