Has anyone read 'Inside Islam' by R Spencer and D Ali

[men0wjv]

Pax vobiscum everyone

I understand that ‘Inside Islam: A Catholic perspective,’ is quite widely read by Catholics wishing to know about Islam. Being Muslim, I was interested to know what it said. I have to say I was shocked. It had many errors - some even the complete opposite of Islamic teaching - and it clearly had an agenda. So this book is not an objective study. Therefore I wish to answer the 100 questions again, but this time fairly; using the authoritative works representative of the Muslims. It is not trying to convert anyone, so authoritative Catholic perspectives are welcome; the aim being mutual understanding and fulfilling the sentiments of Vatican II

May I make a polite request that we try and keep to the trail of thought of the book as much as possible, otherwise we’ll be here forever and that we keep mere opinion to ourselves, since its worthless. Thank-you

 

[MaxRosen]

Hi men0wjv

I have not read this book and have no intention of reading it. So I shall bow out.

 

[SSTeacher]

Pax vobiscum everyone

I understand that ‘Inside Islam: A Catholic perspective,’ is quite widely read by Catholics wishing to know about Islam. Being Muslim, I was interested to know what it said. I have to say I was shocked. It had many errors - some even the complete opposite of Islamic teaching - and it clearly had an agenda. So this book is not an objective study. Therefore I wish to answer the 100 questions again, but this time fairly; using the authoritative works representative of the Muslims. It is not trying to convert anyone, so authoritative Catholic perspectives are welcome; the aim being mutual understanding and fulfilling the sentiments of Vatican II

May I make a polite request that we try and keep to the trail of thought of the book as much as possible, otherwise we’ll be here forever and that we keep mere opinion to ourselves, since its worthless. Thank-you

I haven’t read the book but I went to Amazon and read the reviews (at the time of writing, there are 32). After reading the reviews my impression is that this book is indeed an objective study. Do you think it’s possible that your own presuppositions are somewhat subjective and that your preconceived notions are preventing you from seeing the book as objective?

Inconclusively,
Mick

 

[men0wjv]

1. What is Islam?

The book gives a very brief answer of Islam starting in 7th Century Arabia and that it spread to over a billion followers and recognised as one of the great monotheistic religions. There is nothing wrong with this per se, other than it does not really say what Islam is. A better overview might be:

Islam is an Arabic word that means submission. More specifically it is to submit ones entirety - body, mind and soul - unto God. Muhammad (peace be upon him) - the founder of the religion - elaborates in the following tradition (hadith):

'Umar, may God be pleased with him, said: “While we were sitting with the Messenger of God, may God bless him and grant him peace, one day a man came up to us whose clothes were extremely white, whose hair was extremely black, upon whom traces of travelling could not be seen, and whom none of us knew, until he sat down close to the Prophet, may God bless with him and grant him peace, so that he rested his knees upon his knees and placed his two hands upon his thighs and said: ‘Muhammad, tell me about Islam.’ The Messenger of God, may God bless with him and grant him peace, said: ‘Islam is that you witness that there is no god but God and that Muhammad is the Messenger of God, and you establish the Salat [prayer], and you give the Zakat [charity], and you fast [the month of] Ramadan, and you perform the Hajj [pilgrimage] of the House [Ka’ba] if you are able to take a way to it.’ He said, ‘You have told the truth,’ and we were amazed at him asking him and [then] telling him that he told the truth. He said, ‘Tell me about iman.’ He said, ‘That you affirm God, His angels, His books, His messengers, and the Last Day, and that you affirm the Decree, the good of it and the bad of it.’ He said, ‘You have told the truth.’ He said, ‘Tell me about ihsan.’ He said, ‘That you worship Allah as if you see Him, for if you don’t see Him then truly He sees you.’ He said, ‘Tell me about the [Last] Hour.’ He said, ‘The one asked about it knows no more than the one asking.’ He said, ‘Then tell me about its signs.’ He said, ‘That the female slave should give birth to her mistress, and you see poor, naked, barefoot shepherds of sheep and goats competing in making tall buildings.’ He went away, and I remained some time. Then he asked: ‘Umar, do you know who the questioner was?’ I said, ‘God and His Messenger know best.’ He said, ‘He was Gabriel who came to you to teach you your religion.’” [Muslim 1:1]

The last words ‘teach you your religion’ concludes that the religion of Islam is made up of three interrelated elements: Islam, Iman and Ihsan. Islam is the worship of the body; the outward prescritions of acts like prayer and charity. Iman is faith, that which gives life to the outward actions so that they are not just mere motions. Ihsan perfects the previous two by bringing about a fundamental change in one’s being to that of absolute certainty so that one worships God “as if you see Him.”

 

[DJgang]

I have the book and have read about half of it.

As time permits, I may be interested in talking .

 

[DJgang]

1. What is Islam?

The book gives a very brief answer of Islam starting in 7th Century Arabia and that it spread to over a billion followers and recognised as one of the great monotheistic religions. There is nothing wrong with this per se, other than it does not really say what Islam is. A better overview might be:

Islam is an Arabic word that means submission. More specifically it is to submit ones entirety - body, mind and soul - unto God. Muhammad (peace be upon him) - the founder of the religion - elaborates in the following tradition (hadith):

'Umar, may God be pleased with him, said: “While we were sitting with the Messenger of God, may God bless him and grant him peace, one day a man came up to us whose clothes were extremely white, whose hair was extremely black, upon whom traces of travelling could not be seen, and whom none of us knew, until he sat down close to the Prophet, may God bless with him and grant him peace, so that he rested his knees upon his knees and placed his two hands upon his thighs and said: ‘Muhammad, tell me about Islam.’ The Messenger of God, may God bless with him and grant him peace, said: ‘Islam is that you witness that there is no god but God and that Muhammad is the Messenger of God, and you establish the Salat [prayer], and you give the Zakat [charity], and you fast [the month of] Ramadan, and you perform the Hajj [pilgrimage] of the House [Ka’ba] if you are able to take a way to it.’ He said, ‘You have told the truth,’ and we were amazed at him asking him and [then] telling him that he told the truth. He said, ‘Tell me about iman.’ He said, ‘That you affirm God, His angels, His books, His messengers, and the Last Day, and that you affirm the Decree, the good of it and the bad of it.’ He said, ‘You have told the truth.’ He said, ‘Tell me about ihsan.’ He said, ‘That you worship Allah as if you see Him, for if you don’t see Him then truly He sees you.’ He said, ‘Tell me about the [Last] Hour.’ He said, ‘The one asked about it knows no more than the one asking.’ He said, ‘Then tell me about its signs.’ He said, ‘That the female slave should give birth to her mistress, and you see poor, naked, barefoot shepherds of sheep and goats competing in making tall buildings.’ He went away, and I remained some time. Then he asked: ‘Umar, do you know who the questioner was?’ I said, ‘God and His Messenger know best.’ He said, ‘He was Gabriel who came to you to teach you your religion.’” [Muslim 1:1]

The last words ‘teach you your religion’ concludes that the religion of Islam is made up of three interrelated elements: Islam, Iman and Ihsan. Islam is the worship of the body; the outward prescritions of acts like prayer and charity. Iman is faith, that which gives life to the outward actions so that they are not just mere motions. Ihsan perfects the previous two by bringing about a fundamental change in one’s being to that of absolute certainty so that one worships God “as if you see Him.”

Yes, the answer in the book is very short and really more to the point

" Muslims worship one God, ALLAH, and they revere the man they consider have been His last and greatest prophet, muhammad, a seventh-century Arabian" That’s the last sentence. Basically the paragraph describes geographic locations of Islam.

 

[algebra]

men0jwvw

has left out the second part of the kalima, it also involves submission to the will of Mohammed.

In fact, taking the shahadah (declaration of faith) was a pact made with Mohammed, acknowledging him as the representative of God on earth.

It is with the second part that most ex-muslims have a problem.

 

[men0wjv]

Yes, the answer in the book is very short and really more to the point

" Muslims worship one God, ALLAH, and they revere the man they consider have been His last and greatest prophet, Muhammad, a seventh-century Arabian" That’s the last sentence. Basically the paragraph describes geographic locations of Islam.

I’m not sure I understood ‘more to the point?’ The question was what is Islam not where are the Muslims… Anyway its not really a problem it just doesn’t give any details, maybe they could have said ‘…God - Allah in Arabic - and…’ since it might be misleading. However the meaning of Allah is dealt with later on.

 

[men0wjv]

men0jwvw
has left out the second part of the kalima, it also involves submission to the will of Mohammed.
In fact, taking the shahadah (declaration of faith) was a pact made with Mohammed, acknowledging him as the representative of God on earth.
It is with the second part that most ex-muslims have a problem.

The Shahadah is mentioned later on, but yes this could have been mentioned as could the belief amongst Muslims that Muhammad received a divine revelation over 23 years etc.
Your words are maybe a little misrepresentation since the second part of the kalimah is the recognizing that Muhammad (pbuh) as God’s Messenger, but like I said this will be dealt with later on.

 

[algebra]

The Shahadah is mentioned later on, but yes this could have been mentioned as could the belief amongst Muslims that Muhammad received a divine revelation over 23 years etc.
Your words are maybe a little misrepresentation since the second part of the kalimah is the recognizing that Muhammad (pbuh) as God’s Messenger, but like I said this will be dealt with later on.

whilst I think that Mohammed and islamic society was a model for behavior 14 centuries ago.

Do you honestly believe that he is a relevant model for today?

I am probably muslim regarding most of my theological views, but would follow the sunnah of Jesus rather than Mohammed.

 

[dzheremi]

Basically what I’m getting from this is that men0wjv is disappointed that a book written by Catholics for Catholics about Islam doesn’t represent Islam as he, a Muslim, would. I can only hope that as a man committed to fairness he has similar objections to Muslim depictions of Christianity (such as, say, those found in the Qur’an) which are false and self-serving and show a definite agenda.

 

[thedarknight]

I have no reason to read “Inside Islam” by Robert Spencer and D. Ali.

However, for those who are not familiar with Robert Spencer, his website is found here:

jihadwatch.org/

In addition, you can watch and listen to Spencer’s lectures on youtube; here’s one that I find interesting youtube.com/watch?v=C2ee4WzxV4c as he talks about “The Crusades, Fact, & Truth”. Very informative.

God bless you all.

 

[thedarknight]

Basically what I’m getting from this is that men0wjv is disappointed that a book written by Catholics for Catholics about Islam doesn’t represent Islam as he, a Muslim, would. I can only hope that as a man committed to fairness he has similar objections to Muslim depictions of Christianity (such as, say, those found in the Qur’an) which are false and self-serving and show a definite agenda.

 

[men0wjv]

Basically what I’m getting from this is that men0wjv is disappointed that a book written by Catholics for Catholics about Islam doesn’t represent Islam as he, a Muslim, would. I can only hope that as a man committed to fairness he has similar objections to Muslim depictions of Christianity (such as, say, those found in the Qur’an) which are false and self-serving and show a definite agenda.

Could we stick to the book please. Will look at question 2 in a min. It is fine to offer Catholic teaching and where ‘errors’ are relative to Catholicism, but to say Muslims believe X when actually we believe Y is just misrepresentation. Anyway this should become clearer later on

 

[men0wjv]

2. I have heard that the number of Muslims is rapidly increasing each year throughout the World. Is this true?

The authors confirm the question and give the reasons as population increase and successful proselytizers. This may well be true, but no reference is given to back this up. The proselytizers are described as: aggressive, well prepared and successful. Again no references are given or explanation, so the question is how are they aggressive and how do you know that? Since there is no justification given, it does sound like unnecessary commentary. I have a Catholic friend whose PhD involves looking at the phenomenon of conversion to Islam, I’ll see if I can get some data. I know of no organised ‘dawah’ (Arabic for proselytize) group that fits the description, that doesn’t mean there aren’t, but they’re not well known, which then queries their ‘general’ statement.

‘Immigration has given Islam the foothold in Europe that the warriors of jihad could never gain’ is clearly trying to lead the reader, there is no need to put it in these terms especially since jihad has not been defined (it is dealt with later). Once again no references. Some numbers are then given with what seems a reference, but then it turns out to be Acts 17:26 - still not sure why?

The question finishes by offering some personal thoughts on why Christians may become Muslim due to a perceived disaffection with Christian leaders and Islam’s seeming simplicity. Again no references!

Basically all of this is mere opinion which does nothing to increase the readers understanding and there are a few emotive words used to give a certain sense of fear that Muslims will take over! All a little unnecessary

 

[dzheremi]

It is fine to offer Islamic teaching and where ‘errors’ are relative to Christianity, but to say Christians believe X when actually we believe Y is just misrepresentation, which is what the Qur’an and Islam does with regard to our beliefs.

Rather than incur your wrath as I have in the past by refusing to ascribe our differences to mere misunderstandings, I will now be unsubscribing from this thread. I just thought it might behoove you to take notice of how closely your objections about Christian depictions of Islam mirror Christian objections to Islam’s and Muslims’ depiction of Christianity, so that you might either argue from a less blatantly hypocritical position in future or finally concede that for all your niceties you are attempting and failing to uphold a standard for openmindedness, fairness, and supposed objectivity that your religion disallows you.

 

[men0wjv]

Also perhaps a slight error, in that the Nation of Islam are not considered a Muslim group. Heretical sect was mentioned, but this still suggests its Islamic whereas the Nation of Islam have beliefs that contradict the fundamentals, so are beyond the pale of Islam. I suppose they’re a bit like JW’s are to the Catholic Church

 

[men0wjv]

Rather than incur your wrath as I have in the past by refusing to ascribe our differences to mere misunderstandings, I will now be unsubscribing from this thread. I just thought it might behoove you to take notice of how closely your objections about Christian depictions of Islam mirror Christian objections to Islam’s and Muslims’ depiction of Christianity, so that you might either argue from a less blatantly hypocritical position in future or finally concede that for all your niceties you are attempting and failing to uphold a standard for openmindedness, fairness, and supposed objectivity that your religion disallows you.

Open mindedness is at the centre of my religion my friend. Sure, we’ve been here before huh? I know Muslims misunderstand Christianity… I correct them! As I’ve said before, the Qur’an is not identifying what you believe, but what it actually is (obviously from an Islamic perspective), which given the context makes sense. In a Catholic book this would be equivalent to pointing out the ‘errors’ and that’s fine. What is wrong is to say you believe X when you do not and actually believe in Y, not you believe X but actually its Y because that is understandable. I don’t believe picking at each others Holy Books gets us anywhere either, it just makes sense to say you believe X and we believe Y and that’s that - all based on official teaching.
Peace

 

[KathleenGee]

Good to know Islam does not accept Nation of Islam…

 

[Nine_Two]

2. I have heard that the number of Muslims is rapidly increasing each year throughout the World. Is this true?

The authors confirm the question and give the reasons as population increase and successful proselytizers. This may well be true, but no reference is given to back this up. The proselytizers are described as: aggressive, well prepared and successful. Again no references are given or explanation, so the question is how are they aggressive and how do you know that? Since there is no justification given, it does sound like unnecessary commentary. I have a Catholic friend whose PhD involves looking at the phenomenon of conversion to Islam, I’ll see if I can get some data. I know of no organised ‘dawah’ (Arabic for proselytize) group that fits the description, that doesn’t mean there aren’t, but they’re not well known, which then queries their ‘general’ statement.

Depends how you define aggressive, most people would define it as constantly in your face forcing you to have some exposure to the religion, which is quite true. Trying to deny this goes against the experiences against anyone who doesn’t live under a rock. If you define aggressive as violent, no, it isn’t.

‘Immigration has given Islam the foothold in Europe that the warriors of jihad could never gain’ is clearly trying to lead the reader, there is no need to put it in these terms especially since jihad has not been defined (it is dealt with later). Once again no references. Some numbers are then given with what seems a reference, but then it turns out to be Acts 17:26 - still not sure why?

Really? You’re denying this? You actually need numbers? Look at Germany, a significant Muslim population, mostly non-native Turks. France, mostly non-native Algerians, Britain, mostly non-native South Asians. The bulk of Muslims in Europe are non-natives. You many have second and third generation, but the fact of the matter is Islam came through immigration.

The question finishes by offering some personal thoughts on why Christians may become Muslim due to a perceived disaffection with Christian leaders and Islam’s seeming simplicity. Again no references!

That’s because anything on why people convert to a given religion is going to be speculation. This is a given.

Basically all of this is mere opinion which does nothing to increase the readers understanding and there are a few emotive words used to give a certain sense of fear that Muslims will take over! All a little unnecessary

You seem more annoyed that it isn’t giving people the glossed over picture of Islam that Muslims like to pretend is true. Threads like this, where you attack anything and everything, don’t help people’s perspectives of your religion.