Has anyone read the book: The Poem of the Man-God?

[LilyM]

Do you think that infallibility of the Church means that all the Bishops and all the Cardinals and all the Offices of the Vatican will always say and do everything irrevocably perfectly and infallibly?

But that is not what Catholic Church means by infallibility.

Dear sister Eliza, collectively they will always know better than you and I. And it’s a collective opinion that they’ve given against these books, and it’s collectively that they’ve said numerous times that the Index still maintains its moral force. THAT is the guidance of the Holy Spirit that was promised to them as successors of the Apostles.

It IS an exercise of the Magisterium, like it or not, and we are bound to all guidance from church or civil authorities that does not bind us to actual or potential sin.

Obviously if the Catholic Church was infallible in its every move, it would not publish an list of forbidden books and then revoke the list later.

Revoked? Now who’s not reading carefully. It’s not an official publication any longer, but it retains all the moral force it had back in 1966.

Jesus is my judge. Not you. And Jesus has told us clearly in the scriptures that we are not to judge others.

I’m not being your judge. The CDF and the Holy Father have spoken, they certainly are more than fit to judge such matters. They have been given the authority to do so.

Jesus DID say ‘listen to those who occupy Moses’ seat’. Right now that means the Holy Father, and the CDF by extension. You quite simply are ignoring this command of his.

‘He who listens to you listens to me’ - Christ said this to the apostles. You have your ears stopped up. St Paul bids us to obey those set in authority over us, civil or religious. You seem to think you know better than him too now.

I already commented on Father Pacwa’s web opinion in an above post on this thread, and I think what I wrote is very fair and balanced. Its fine if you want to take Fr. Pacwa’s opinion as the final infallible word on this matter. That is your choice. But that is not my position, and the Church does not obligate me to pick one priest, no matter how good he is, and stand by all his views on all things.

Dear Eliza, I had not the faintest idea until this thread linked to his article that Fr Pacwa had said a word about them, although having now read his article I agree with it 100%.

I knew a long time ago that POMG had been placed on the Index, and I knew that the Index has never lost its moral force. And that is enough said against them for you, me or any faithful follower of the Magisterium.

Now who’s making assumptions about whom.

Hey, Lily, you don’'t know what books I’ve read!

I know darn well that you haven’t read all the body of work of all the Doctors of the Church for a start. You haven’t read those who ARE endorsed by the Church and HAVE withstood the test of many centuries. (In all but the case of St Therese of Lisieux of course, in the interests of accuracy, and even her works have been around for more than a century).

I also know you’re chasing after works of much less proven value instead. Kind of like preferring rhinestones to diamonds, in my humble opinion.

Good for you! I support you choice, because I assume you are following your conscience, and doing what you think that God and our Church want you to do in the matter.

The Church wants all its faithful children to do the same. What makes you think otherwise? Neither of us is a special case in this regard.

Is there a list somewhere of the people the Index doesn’t apply to? One that your name is on? And I use the present tense because the Index STILL retains its moral force - that means its guidance still applies to you as well as me!

I trust in Jesus. I am a faithful follower of the Magisterium of our Church. I am not perfect, but I am in good hands.

Fine trust you’re showing in Jesus when you presume to know better than those He has put over us to guide us in spiritual matters. You trust him, but not when you’re told something by Him through them that you don’t like hearing.

If you are a faithful follower of the Magisterium then why are you ignoring what it (and yes, the Index IS a valid exercise of the Magisterium and IS still, in effect, in force) has officially said regarding POMG?

 

[Grace_Angel]

exactly the book make u have a very deep love for Jesus.
the church can say this books are not completely whitin the cahtolic doctrine, but people if they want they could read it without reading everythign as a fact.

Jimmy, thanks for comment, I generally do listen to what the Church has to say and try to be as obedient as I can. I guess when you get to my age (ancient) you become a bit more discerning. There is a radar which generally tells us when something doesnt sound too healthy for ones spirit.
God Bless,
Graceangel.

 

[jimmy85]

its not about age but humbleness.
I respect the church.
try to understand my point of view.

when Padre Pio was banned of giving masses becuase of his stigmas. the CDF doubted about him n were scare that teh faithfull could be misleaded by fake stigmas wounds.

then several faithfull protestes n wanted Padre pio back hearing confesions n giving masses and the church granted him that.

Does the CDF was doing bad ? No, they were protecting us , the Stigmas of Padre Pio were real . but the CDF wasent acting bad.

the church is the only authority that we have.
they jsut cant accept a 5th gospel. dosent even if the exegesis of teh books was perfect and if it made perfect sense with the bible.
so the book is not catholic but its christian and it increase enoourmously your love to Jesus.

the book is fobiten by the church that means that it dosent have the very exact doctrine of the church, however I could read it as fiction and not as a catholic book…

before entering indetails saying that this book is evil you could read some of it.
and realize that its not deciveful but its a normal book.
if the stance of the chruch is to forbite the book then I will read it as fiction.

valtorta.org/the_poem__freeonlinereadingoffer.asp

Jim

 

[Eliza10]

Okay, I understand where you are coming from, Lily. The choice you have made not to read the book is the only right and true choice. There is nothing else to consider, and anyone who has not made the choice you have made must somehow be guilty of rebellion, or disobedience, or unfaithfulness, or of asserting themselves above the Church.

Personally I feel safer, and more in line with what God’s will is for me, when I do not make negative assumptions about why and how people respond to God’s graces and gifts in their lives.

All we can do is agree to disagree, while I also tell you that you have misjudged me, and also caution you that in your rigidity, you risk misjudging others.

 

[Eliza10]

…when Padre Pio was banned of giving Masses becuase of his stigmatas, the CDF doubted about him…
… [Was] the CDF … doing bad ? No, they were protecting us; the Stigmatas of Padre Pio were real, but the CDF wasn’t acting bad…

Good points, Jimmy. There are many other such thoughful points made by theologians and priests on the Bardstown website, but most detractors wouldn’t read there anyway. I have that interesting and informative site bookmarked, but rarely read there - because I’d rather read and reread the Poem than read about it. I don’t want to become an apologist for it, yet, I feel an obligation to be unafraid to be a witness for the gift of God gave me when He brought me that book. Under the circumstances in which I discovered it, it was as if He handed it to me, giftwrapped, with a big smile of love.

…the Church is the only authority that we have.
they just cant accept a 5th gospel…

I can see how people might call it a 5th gospel, which can argue the point that its adding to the Bible. But it nowhere claims to be or want to be scripture. It refers to scripture. It tells the same gospel stories, but without changing them, only telling more, remaining theologically perfect and in line with the teaching of our Church.

But its private revelation, so the Church will never tell anyone they have to believe it. Private revelation never will be an obligation for belief, no matter how true or how directly from God it comes.

…the book is fordidden by the church, that means that it dosent have the very exact doctrine of the church…

Only, it "was", not "is" forbidden. And theologians say it has the exact doctrine of the Church. Its a beautiful work, isn’t it? - and so wonderful that theologians tell us its theologically correct!

… however I could read it as fiction and not as a Catholic book…

Thats what I say. In my heart, before the Lord, I believe its real. But one could read it as fiction, and learn so much. People read fiction novels about the Lord, great theologians write them, and try to fill in the blanks, best they can, imagining what He must have been like.

[continued on next post]

.

 

[Eliza10]

[Continued from previous post]

John Haffert writes:

"My own small library (which would fill a wall 40 feet long from floor to ceiling) had almost an entire shelf fullof biographies of Jesus. All those many books searched the scanty details of the gospels to understand His Person, at once human and divine…

My whole shelf of books never gave me a clear answer…
In the end, all these books told me nothing more than what the authors themselves had deduced from the Gospels…

… But who, in two thousand years, has been able to flesh out the gospels with sufficient enlightenment and realism?"

Then Haffert tells how he discovered *The Poem of the Man-God *by Maria Valtorta:

"…I happened to he in Rome with the Most Rev. John Venancio, the Bishop of Fatima, when he sought out a special bookstore to purchase the ten volumes of the Italian edition…

Years later, after Bishop Venancio retired, whenever I visited him our conversation seemed to turn to the *Poem. *Inhis last years *the Bishop read from it every day. *He must have read all ten volumes over and over. *I began to wonder what could be so special about it. *The Bishop was widely read and had a sizable library. He had been a professor of dogmatic theology in Rome before becoming the Bishop of Fatima. Yet now, when he had ample time to read anything he wished, he seemed to spend all his time on this one book."

Haffert tells us: …“Today I continue, like Bishop Venancio, to read it over and over…”

[This is from a link I gave in another post of this thread if anyone wants to read more of what Haffert says.]

But as you say, Jimmy, why not read it as fiction? I love an uplifting fiction with a moral to it that helps me learn about life and truth and rightness and goodness. There is no other novel that comes near that like The Poem of the Man-God.

…before entering in details saying that this book is evil you could read some of it.

Sounds pretty sensible, doesn’t it. But often it seems to me that the most vehement detractors are those who have not read.

Jim, you’ll like this quote (from same source as above):
Fr. AI Winshman, SJ., of the Marian Renewal Ministry in Boston, wrote:

"The *Poem *has not only opened the life of Jesus, Mary and the apostles to me, but has challenged me through thelife and preaching of Jesus, and His training of the apostles, *to follow Him more closely. *Using this work, I have enjoyed being with Jesus in prayer in a the way a teenager insightfully described prayer as "hanging around with Jesus."

That’s it! That is what is WONDERFUL about the*Poem. *We enjoy being like a child “hanging around with Jesus”…and Oh! how we come to love Him!

This is what it feels like to me, too! That why I’d rather read it than anything else. It makes me love listening to and reading scripture more than ever, as well. I am awake, alert, and tuned in when the scripture is read at Mass, particulalry the Gospel.

…and realize that its not decietful, but its a normal book.
If the stance of the Church is to forbid the book then I will read it as fiction.

Good idea.

…valtorta.org/the_poem__freeonlinereadingoffer.asp

Jim

Its good you gave that but you cannot expect it to convert the detractors. When one reads without trust, and without openness that something could be true and of God, he/she can miss out completely.

I used to witness to a co-worker who was an agnostic. He’s always be unmoved, and have an arguement. Finally I said to him (his name was Jim, too): “If you would just read the Bible, you would know it was true! You would know God!” Guess what? He’d already read it through - twice! I was floored. But I learned from that. When one reads without faith, and without the openness of a child, but instead with the skepticism of the partial scientist on a mission to dispprove, one can completely miss the truth.

So, I just wanted to say that. Also, Haffert recommends reading the whole work before you critic. And you can see how its a tapestry, and questions that may arise are later answered.

 

[Eliza10]

… I guess when you get to my age (ancient) you become a bit more discerning. There is a radar which generally tells us when something doesnt sound too healthy for ones spirit.
God Bless,
Graceangel.

I agree, Grace Angel, there is something to be said for discernement. If it wasn’t for that I never would have been Catholic! And I had a lot of obstacles, and being Catholic did not draw me, it repelled me! But discernement was a big part of my conversion to Jesus, and then, much later, to His Church.

And I agree, as you describe, there is a radar in us that tells us when something is not healthy for ones spirit. It is not something that one turns off or has put away into the obscure recesses of one’s mind, and then gets out only for an occasional question. Its something one leaves on all the time, and something you are particularly always tuned into when you think there may be any quesiton about what you are doing.

__________________

***If anyone seeks wisdom, let them ask it from their Creator who gives freely and upbraidth not. ***

 

[Genesis315]

It’s sketchy at least. There is so much great Catholic stuff to read out there and so little time in this life, why bother with anything that has any question marks around it?

 

[Eliza10]

It’s sketchy at least. There is so much great Catholic stuff to read out there and so little time in this life, why bother with anything that has any question marks around it?

I write this not to change your mind, because there is nothing wrong with your point of view. I am responding simply to your question.

I read it, and I hear my Shepherd’s voice. Its akin to Jesus appearing to you and speaking with you. You would cherish His words to you and the gift of His apparition. You would not be able to forget it. People would say to you: "Why do you need that? You have the scripture, the Catechism, the Magisterium, the Saints, the Doctors, Jesus himself in the Eucharist! You could be decieved! Forget what Jeus supposedly said to you and stick to what is safe! " Could you, would you forget Jesus’ gift to you?

Also people have apparitions where the supposed Jesus teaches them things that are contrary to Scripture, or against the teaching and doctine of the Catholic Church. In this case it is clearly of the devil, and this needs to be pointed out and one needs to exhort one’s brother to flee from the error.

***If anyone seeks wisdom, let them ask it from their Creator who gives freely and upbraidth not. ***

 

[LilyM]

Okay, I understand where you are coming from, Lily. The choice you have made not to read the book is the only right and true choice. There is nothing else to consider, and anyone who has not made the choice you have made must somehow be guilty of rebellion, or disobedience, or unfaithfulness, or of asserting themselves above the Church.

Eliza, it’s certainly not for me to judge your heart or your intent. I have loved ones who’ve read POMG, I know one can do so with the best of intentions. You know what they say about the road to h!@l being paved with such. I’ve seen that too - as a direct result of supporting unapproved apparitions and also of reading and placing too much stock in POMG.

And when the Church states that the Index still retains its moral force and you insist that they’re wrong in this case, what else can I call it but asserting yourself above the Church?

If you genuinely support these works, fine - you’re entitled. Write to Rome, write to the CDF, ask them to make a statement that in their considered opinion the books no longer pose a spiritual danger. Put your best case to them as to why they don’t. Until you have a definitive answer from them put the books to one side. No-one should be so attached to a mere book anyway!

The CDF only had nearly 50 years to rethink their position on POMG. That they haven’t done so, unlike many other past acts they’ve apologised for, and past writings, apparitions and so on that have been accepted contrary to inital scepticism, speaks volumes to me.

 

[Eliza10]

And when the Church states that the Index still retains its moral force and you insist that they’re wrong in this case, what else can I call it but asserting yourself above the Church?
…

You say I “insist”, but my posts are all here to be seen, and one can see that I have not ever disagreed with “retains its moral force”. I have only questioned what you think that means.

To me, it seems that you think they are still forbidden books, that in fact nothing has changed since the Index was done away with. That keeping Index and doing away with the Index means one and the same thing.

And with that I don’t agree.

---

***If anyone seeks wisdom, let them ask it from their Creator who gives freely and upbraidth not. ***

 

[adrift]

The index was “done away with” not because the books on them were now wholesome and worthy to be read. When the index was first began there were few books. Because of the computer, books could and were printed in the millions. It would have been an impossible job to keep up with it. So it just was eliminated but those that were on the list were still considered banned. Moral force can only mean one thing.

I haven’t read the book but some have posted excerpts and in those few paragraphs there were so many errors. I agree with the previous poster. I have read the most horrible accusations against priest who disagree and condemn this book that it makes me shudder at its fruits.
The other thing that I have read is that it contradicts other visions.

 

[Eliza10]

The index was “done away with” [because]… When the index was first began there were few books. Because of the computer, books could and were printed in the millions. It would have been an impossible job to keep up with it. So it just was eliminated but those that were on the list were still considered banned… .

What is your source for this information?

 

[Tantum_ergo]

What about this, which I found both on EWTN and on Catholic Culture?

Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, present head of the Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith (formerly the same office that condemned the Poem), informed Cardinal Siri in 1985 of the "Poem’s condemnation:

After the dissolution of the Index, when some people thought the printing and distribution of the work was permitted, they were reminded again in L’Osservatore Romano (June 15, 1966) that “The Index retains its moral force despite its dissolution.”

More recently (April 17, 1993, Prot. N. 144/58i), he wrote:

“The ‘visions’ and ‘dictations’ referred to in the work, The Poem of the Man-God, are simply the literary forms used by the author to narrate in her own way the life of Jesus. They cannot be considered supernatural in origin.”

The best that can be said for The Poem of the Man-God is that it is a bad novel. This was summed up in the L’Osservatore Romano headline, which called the book “A Badly Fictionalized Life of Jesus.”

At worst, Poem’s impact is more serious. Though many people claim that Poem helps their faith or their return to reading Scripture, they are still being disobedient to the Church’s decisions regarding the reading of Poem. How can such disregard for Church authority and wisdom be a help in renewing the Church in these difficult times?

Note: I personally am not giving ‘my’ judgment. I’m just wondering, in light of what is said in some pretty reputable places, just what the documentation and authority backs up those who do read the Poem, then? It seems to me that if there isn’t any documentation that it is ‘all right’, and there is documentation that says the work is ‘condemned’, then I surely wouldn’t be reading it no matter how it made me ‘feel.’ Is there documentation for its ‘goodness’ ?

 

[Eliza10]

What about this, which I found both on EWTN and on Catholic Culture?..

Its exactly what we have been referring to and discussing on this thread.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Yes, and. . .

I’ve read through the thread. I’ve seen (and noted) the documentation ‘con’ the Poem. While I’ve seen your posts (and others) who support, I haven’t seen you give any documentation, only your own unsupported word that the quotes given ‘con’ are ‘distorted’.

So what exactly is the documentation “pro?”

 

[LilyM]

You say I “insist”, but my posts are all here to be seen, and one can see that I have not ever disagreed with “retains its moral force”. I have only questioned what you think that means.

To me, it seems that you think they are still forbidden books, that in fact nothing has changed since the Index was done away with. That keeping Index and doing away with the Index means one and the same thing.

And with that I don’t agree.

"re·tain(r-tn)
tr.v. re·tained, re·tain·ing, re·tains

1. To maintain possession of. See Synonyms at keep.
   2. To keep or hold in a particular place, condition, or position.
2. To keep in mind; remember.
3. To hire (an attorney, for example) by the payment of a fee.
4. To keep in one’s service or pay. "

In other words the ‘place, condition, or position’ of those books which were on the Index, and the authority of the Index itself, are the same!

 

[adrift]

What is your source for this information?

jloughnan.tripod.com/valtmedj.htm

 

[Eliza10]

Yes, and. . .

I’ve read through the thread. I’ve seen (and noted) the documentation ‘con’ the Poem. While I’ve seen your posts (and others) who support, I haven’t seen you give any documentation, only your own unsupported word that the quotes given ‘con’ are ‘distorted’…

The documentation against is pretty much what you quoted in your post. The detractors on the other threads focused entiredly on that. One of those threads reposts that text you quoted here, over and over and over again. I guess in case anyone missed it the first time. But also because it is the only documention they could find.

Its true that I never got into a dicussion on exactly what was distorted. Perhaps that was a mistake on my part. The reason was because the discussion never got there. The detractors, who have never read the work, quoted from other sources who quoted out of context from the book. These sources had completely disotorted conclusions about the text, yet, reputable detractors quoted from them.

But I haven’t met a detractor who has actually read the books. Its hard to have an intelligent discussion about a book with someone who hasn’t read the book, isn’t it?

I would be happy to discuss the distortions. But its just that I look for an “opening” and don’t see one.

That there is no opening is much like in a discussion with a Fundamentalist who has just handed you a glossy Bart Brewer pamplet denouncing Catholicism, with a 101 “proofs” of the anti-Bible things our Church believes. He has no interest in what is true about Catholicism (but as a follower of Christ, he *should *be interested in what is true, in general).

As you explain one of the distortions, his eyes glaze over, and when you are done, rather than find any point of agreement in what you explained, he says, “What about the other 100?!”, and your intuiton tells you he’ll have the same disinterest in the other 100 explanations.

On those other threads, no one had any interest in engaging in discussion about the distortions. There was no curiosity that existed - after I mentioned strongly that they existed, as you noticed. I backed away because of that. Perhaps that was a mistake. It seemed to me that the detractors only wanted to state their own their own opinions. Its a discussion forum, after all, and *part *of discussing is stating your own opinions.

If you want, I’ll discuss a popular, widely requoted distortion or two.

So what exactly is the documentation “pro?”

For extensive documentation of “pro”, its covered extensively on this website from every angle concievable with highly reputable sources:

bardstown.com/~brchrys/index.html

__________________

***If anyone seeks wisdom, let them ask it from their Creator who gives freely and upbraidth not. ***

 

[Eliza10]

… you’re ignoring the mountains of perfectly good, solid, undoubtedly beneficial and approved works that you could be reading…

I know darn well that you haven’t read all the body of work of all the Doctors of the Church for a start. You haven’t read those who ARE endorsed by the Church and HAVE withstood the test of many centuries… St Therese of Lisieux…

I wanted to say, Lily, that I have read so much. Particularly of St. Theresa of Lisieux and also St. Therese of Avila and St. John of the Cross and excerpts of many others.

Yes, you are certainly safe in assuming I have not read all of the works of all of the doctors! But it would be safe to say that its likely that *the *Most Rev. John Venancio, the Bishop of Fatima, quoted in my above post, at the top of page 2 of this thread, *has read all the works you mentioned. *

John Haffert said the bishop was “widely read and has a most sizable library”. He was a professor of dogmatic theology in Rome before becoming Bishop of Fatima. So its a safe guess, he read all of all of those doctors!

What led Haffert, founder of the Blue Army, and author of many devout and faithful Catholic books, to read Poem Of The Man-God was the example of this Bishop, and the question this observation raised in his mind: **"…Yet now, when he had ample time to read anything he wished, he seemed to spend all his time on this one book."

Haffert tells us: …“Today I continue, like Bishop Venancio, to read it over and over…”

Lily, if you are reading with a curiousity for truth, this should be moving.

Also, Lily, you mentioned in a post that the “fruit” of the readers of the Poem is bad. You must have missed this in the same post quoted above:

Fr. AI Winshman, SJ., of the Marian Renewal Ministry in Boston, wrote:

"The *Poem *has not only opened the life of Jesus, Mary and the apostles to me, but has challenged me through the life and preaching of Jesus, and His training of the apostles,to follow Him more closely. "

Now, thats fruit! I also think of Him constantly, contemplate the mysteries more deeply, and endeavor to follow him more closely.

I have so much more to learn from the riches of the doctors of the Church, but right now, like Fr. Winsham and John Haffert found, I am learning so much from the joy of “hanging out with Jesus and His disciples”. As they tell it here, they are perfectly describing my current experience:

"Using this work, I have enjoyed being with Jesus in prayer in a the way a teenager insightfully described prayer as "hanging around with Jesus."

**That’s it! That is what is WONDERFUL about the*Poem. ***We enjoy being like a child “hanging around with Jesus”…and Oh! how we come to love Him!

If you want to see what how the works make you feel as if you are hanging out with Jesus and His apostles, Jimmy quoted a link in an above thread where you can read some of the work for yourself.

To read with faith I can’t help you with, nor can I help you to read with an openness that it could possibly be true - which in my opinion is the only way to approach it with integrity.

I don’t know what it would be like to read with the prejudice that it can’t possibly be true, because I have not had that experience. And if you prefer to not even read anything of it at all, because you think its bad, I respect that.