Has Ben Franklin's prediction come true?

[JRKH]

I really fear for our country…I’m afraid that Ben Franklin’s prediction is coming true…
…there is no form of Government but what may be a blessing to the people if well administered, and believe farther that this is likely to be well administered for a course of years, and can only end in Despotism, as other forms have done before it, when the people shall become so corrupted as to need despotic Government, being incapable of any other.
(Speech at the close of the Constitutional convention)
With all that we see, and read, and hear of our society…the culture of death, the secular society, the intolerance of faith in the public square, the intrusion of the federal government more and more into private lives and local affairs, the greater and greater reliance of the people on the government to cure their problems…
I fear that the corruption of the people has reached critical mass and the resulting despotism may be already upon us.

What say you…Is there still hope???

Peace
James

 

[Dale_M]

He doesn’t seem to have been predicting doom, but simply trying to end debate by praising the constitution which had been drafted.

Here is the quote, in context

Mr. President

I confess that there are several parts of this constitution which I do not at present approve, but I am not sure I shall never approve them: For having lived long, I have experienced many instances of being obliged by better information, or fuller consideration, to change opinions even on important subjects, which I once thought right, but found to be otherwise. It is therefore that the older I grow, the more apt I am to doubt my own judgment, and to pay more respect to the judgment of others. Most men indeed as well as most sects in Religion, think themselves in possession of all truth, and that wherever others differ from them it is so far error. Steele a Protestant in a Dedication tells the Pope, that the only difference between our Churches in their opinions of the certainty of their doctrines is, the Church of Rome is infallible and the Church of England is never in the wrong. But though many private persons think almost as highly of their own infallibility as of that of their sect, few express it so naturally as a certain french lady, who in a dispute with her sister, said “I don’t know how it happens, Sister but I meet with no body but myself, that’s always in the right-Il n’y a que moi qui a toujours raison.”

In these sentiments, Sir, I agree to this Constitution with all its faults, if they are such; because I think a general Government necessary for us, and there is no form of Government but what may be a blessing to the people if well administered, and believe farther that this is likely to be well administered for a course of years, and can only end in Despotism, as other forms have done before it, when the people shall become so corrupted as to need despotic Government, being incapable of any other. I doubt too whether any other Convention we can obtain, may be able to make a better Constitution. For when you assemble a number of men to have the advantage of their joint wisdom, you inevitably assemble with those men, all their prejudices, their passions, their errors of opinion, their local interests, and their selfish views. From such an assembly can a perfect production be expected? It therefore astonishes me, Sir, to find this system approaching so near to perfection as it does; and I think it will astonish our enemies, who are waiting with confidence to hear that our councils are confounded like those of the Builders of Babel; and that our States are on the point of separation, only to meet hereafter for the purpose of cutting one another’s throats.

avalon.law.yale.edu/18th_century/debates_917.asp

There is more at the link.

No, the US is not anywhere near despotism. However, I think the hyper-partisan rhetoric of recent years is destructive of democracy, and we need to end our enthusiasm for it.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

He doesn’t seem to have been predicting doom, but simply trying to end debate by praising the constitution which had been drafted.

Here is the quote, in context

avalon.law.yale.edu/18th_century/debates_917.asp

There is more at the link.

No, the US is not anywhere near despotism. However, I think the hyper-partisan rhetoric of recent years is destructive of democracy, and we need to end our enthusiasm for it.

Our Hope is not in politics…

 

[GEddie]

I don’t think that you can do any better when you have a third of a billion people.

The Founders never imagined the huddled masses we have now. Nor did they consider that those elected or appointed to government could turn it into a permanent gravy train for themselves.

But all things considered, among the heavily populated nations of the world, we are doing very well.

ICXC NIKA

 

[TheRealJuliane]

I really fear for our country…I’m afraid that Ben Franklin’s prediction is coming true…
…there is no form of Government but what may be a blessing to the people if well administered, and believe farther that this is likely to be well administered for a course of years, and can only end in Despotism, as other forms have done before it, when the people shall become so corrupted as to need despotic Government, being incapable of any other.
(Speech at the close of the Constitutional convention)
With all that we see, and read, and hear of our society…the culture of death, the secular society, the intolerance of faith in the public square, the intrusion of the federal government more and more into private lives and local affairs, the greater and greater reliance of the people on the government to cure their problems…
I fear that the corruption of the people has reached critical mass and the resulting despotism may be already upon us.

What say you…Is there still hope???

Peace
James

There is always hope. In God, and the Holy Spirit, not the government. Even despots get overthrown. All human institutions eventually will be destroyed.

Remember, we’re Catholics first and foremost. This earth is not our home, just a temporary dwelling place, and all other Catholics and Christians in the world are our brothers and sisters. All non-Catholics are our separated brethren yearning for the whole Truth.

As dire as our political situation may seem - it is but a blink of an eye to God. Keep focused on that goal of Heaven and keep your perspective.

 

[JRKH]

Our Hope is not in politics…

There is always hope. In God, and the Holy Spirit, not the government. Even despots get overthrown. All human institutions eventually will be destroyed.

Remember, we’re Catholics first and foremost. This earth is not our home, just a temporary dwelling place, and all other Catholics and Christians in the world are our brothers and sisters. All non-Catholics are our separated brethren yearning for the whole Truth.

As dire as our political situation may seem - it is but a blink of an eye to God. Keep focused on that goal of Heaven and keep your perspective.

Gee - - - -

Then I wonder why we spend so much time around here talking about politics and elections and what not…I mean - if “our hope is not in politics”…and “the earth is not our home”…Why do we bother?

Seriously…I know these things in the spiritual sense, but the point of this thread is to give people an opportunity to ponder, assess and consider the state of this nation in comparison to what this rather wise statesman had to say.

Despotism can take many forms and, in my opinion, does not require a singular “despot”. Today we are trapped under the despotic rule of the pocketbook and the handout and “social engineering”. We cannot get free because too many are too reliant on the handouts, or are too concerned about their pocketbook, or actually agree with this or that aspect of social engineering (also known as the liberal agenda).
The politicians must cater to these groups in order to be elected, and in most cases - getting elected is seen as more important than standing on sound policy and principle.

This despotic condition…a tyranny in many cases “of and by the people” themselves strikes me very much like what Mr Franklin refers to as "so corrupt as to need despotic government. Common sense is not and likely will not prevail in time to prevent some sort of societal meltdown…most likely tied to an insurmountable economic crisis possibly tied to some natural disaster.

Of course I’m just speculating here…but, as Juliane says, human institutions will eventually be destroyed. I wonder what form the end of the American Constitutional Republic will take? Will it be a violent implosion? Or will it be a quiet disintegration?

Peace
James

 

[TheRealJuliane]

Gee - - - -

**Then I wonder why we spend so much time around here talking about politics and elections and what not…I mean - if “our hope is not in politics”…and “the earth is not our home”…Why do we bother?
**
Seriously…I know these things in the spiritual sense, but the point of this thread is to give people an opportunity to ponder, assess and consider the state of this nation in comparison to what this rather wise statesman had to say.

Despotism can take many forms and, in my opinion, does not require a singular “despot”. Today we are trapped under the despotic rule of the pocketbook and the handout and “social engineering”. We cannot get free because too many are too reliant on the handouts, or are too concerned about their pocketbook, or actually agree with this or that aspect of social engineering (also known as the liberal agenda).
The politicians must cater to these groups in order to be elected, and in most cases - getting elected is seen as more important than standing on sound policy and principle.

This despotic condition…a tyranny in many cases “of and by the people” themselves strikes me very much like what Mr Franklin refers to as "so corrupt as to need despotic government. Common sense is not and likely will not prevail in time to prevent some sort of societal meltdown…most likely tied to an insurmountable economic crisis possibly tied to some natural disaster.

Of course I’m just speculating here…but, as Juliane says, human institutions will eventually be destroyed. I wonder what form the end of the American Constitutional Republic will take? Will it be a violent implosion? Or will it be a quiet disintegration?

Peace
James

Killing time until Jesus comes back??



No, seriously, for me, it’s a balance between being IN the world, but not OF the world. And I don’t always get it right. Because this nation is the arena in which I work for the Kingdom of God, I care deeply about its future. I have 2 young adult sons and I’d like to see them experience as much freedom, religious and personal, as possible within the bounds of morality. I don’t believe that Christians are supposed to detach from the political process because as we see, nature hates a vacuum, and when there is a space to be filled, other ideologies will rush to fill it.

Some days, I am quite filled with despair about the future of our nation and even the world. But really, what can any of us little dust motes do? Pray, receive the sacraments, treat others with charity and dignity, vote, and do the best we can to be the best Catholics we can. I sure have no other powers than those.

 

[Swiss_Guy]

Of course I’m just speculating here…but, as Juliane says, human institutions will eventually be destroyed. I wonder what form the end of the American Constitutional Republic will take? Will it be a violent implosion? Or will it be a quiet disintegration?

Peace
James

Maybe a combo? With our debt and moral decay, the country won’t last much longer at this rate. By not much longer I mean probably 100 years. With the economy around the world sinking sooner or later people are going to want their money back, and we won’t be able to pay them.

 

[GratefulFred]

for me, it’s a balance between being IN the world, but not OF the world. And I don’t always get it right. Because this nation is the arena in which I work for the Kingdom of God, I care deeply about its future. I have 2 young adult sons and I’d like to see them experience as much freedom, religious and personal, as possible within the bounds of morality. I don’t believe that Christians are supposed to detach from the political process because as we see, nature hates a vacuum, and when there is a space to be filled, other ideologies will rush to fill it.

Some days, I am quite filled with despair about the future of our nation and even the world. But really, what can any of us little dust motes do? Pray, receive the sacraments, treat others with charity and dignity, vote, and do the best we can to be the best Catholics we can. I sure have no other powers than those.

Well said, Julianne.

Our challenge in this life is to do our best to understand God’s expectation: "Thy Will be done on earth as it is heaven."

The more we cooperate with ignoring or even pushing our sense of God and HIS expectations out of our personal lives, out of our family life, out of our society by supporting useless media and voting against God’s Will, the more God will leave us to our own folly.

True LOVE that God calls us to perform is working for the ultimate best of for the loved one. It is a FALSE love that encourages us to to vote for “whatever” anybody wants, and by extension, for candidates who support positions clearly contrary to Church Teaching. God does have his limits. We are here to do His Will.

Spread the word.

 

[SamH]

I don’t think that you can do any better when you have a third of a billion people.

The Founders never imagined the huddled masses we have now. Nor did they consider that those elected or appointed to government could turn it into a permanent gravy train for themselves.

But all things considered, among the heavily populated nations of the world, we are doing very well.

ICXC NIKA

They did know about the “huddled masses”, they just never envisioned those takers being able to vote themselves the largeness of the makers using the power of the federal government to collect it for them.

 

[rbcurtiop]

Personally, I do not think this prediction is even a prediction but was a known state of affairs that the delegates attempted to avoid. The wisdom of the Founding Fathers was incredible and many acknowledged the gifts of the Creator. We are, however, slowly beginning to slide into that state of affairs as was mentioned, “the pocketbook, the handout, social engineering.” Add to that the “dictatorship of relativism,” rampant secularization, and we have postmodern progressive darkness approaching. Look at www.catholicfirst-usa.org for a bit more discussion of the problem.

 

[McGaw]

Hi
As Catholics we must approach with caution anything that Franklin said. He was a freemason, which is regarded by the Church as amounting to the worship of a false God. If you want an interesting take on the founding fathers read Ferrara Liberty:The God that Failed.

 

[Cinderella20000]

Gee - - - -

Then I wonder why we spend so much time around here talking about politics and elections and what not…I mean - if “our hope is not in politics”…and “the earth is not our home”…Why do we bother?

Seriously…I know these things in the spiritual sense, but the point of this thread is to give people an opportunity to ponder, assess and consider the state of this nation in comparison to what this rather wise statesman had to say.

Despotism can take many forms and, in my opinion, does not require a singular “despot”. Today we are trapped under the despotic rule of the pocketbook and the handout and “social engineering”. We cannot get free because too many are too reliant on the handouts, or are too concerned about their pocketbook, or actually agree with this or that aspect of social engineering (also known as the liberal agenda).
The politicians must cater to these groups in order to be elected, and in most cases - getting elected is seen as more important than standing on sound policy and principle.

This despotic condition…a tyranny in many cases “of and by the people” themselves strikes me very much like what Mr Franklin refers to as "so corrupt as to need despotic government. Common sense is not and likely will not prevail in time to prevent some sort of societal meltdown…most likely tied to an insurmountable economic crisis possibly tied to some natural disaster.

Of course I’m just speculating here…but, as Juliane says, human institutions will eventually be destroyed. I wonder what form the end of the American Constitutional Republic will take? Will it be a violent implosion? Or will it be a quiet disintegration?

Peace
James

 

[JRKH]

Hi
As Catholics we must approach with caution anything that Franklin said. He was a freemason, which is regarded by the Church as amounting to the worship of a false God. If you want an interesting take on the founding fathers read Ferrara Liberty:The God that Failed.

I don’t particularly agree with your statement here - as it relates to the subject and quote in this thread - but OK…I’ll play along.
As Catholics, what should we be cautious about in the statement under discussion? Where is the danger to our Catholic faith? Does it contain a false teaching?

Peace
James

 

[monstarr06]

I did a google search and came up with a bunch of sites in less than a minute yesterday, and I just wanted to post them here so Catholics and others who voted for Obama know just who they’ve cast their lot in with.

o.bamapost.com/witches_celebrating_obama.html

irregulartimes.com/atheistsforobama.html

I found these, along with countless other “gays for obama” sites, where you can go and buy shirts & bumper stickers proclaiming that fact.

The late Archbishop Fulton Sheen was once on a flight when they brought around meals, but he refused because he was fasting.

The woman sitting next to him refused for the same reason.

He then turned to her and asked her if she was Catholic, to which she replied: “No. I’m a pagan witch fasting for abortions.”

And I think this is a better, more realistic and prophetic quote that came from Abraham Lincoln.

"America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves."

 

[McGaw]

Hi James
The issues that concern you are important ones - the marginalisation of faith and so on - but I just don’t see that bringing someone like Benjamin Franklin into it is the way forward. I mention this simply because I am half way through the book that I referred to - bought at a Catholic book store by the way. Its a bit polemical in tone but still quite an interesting revisionist take on the American experiment.
Thanks.
Mark

 

[JRKH]

Hi James
The issues that concern you are important ones - the marginalisation of faith and so on - but I just don’t see that bringing someone like Benjamin Franklin into it is the way forward. I mention this simply because I am half way through the book that I referred to - bought at a Catholic book store by the way. Its a bit polemical in tone but still quite an interesting revisionist take on the American experiment.
Thanks.
Mark

I think that you are making this something more broad than I intended it. The quote by Ben Franklin that I provided in the OP has always fascinated me. I believed that the views expressed are interesting both from a historical standpoint, and in light of recent trends.
It seemed to be a quote worth reflecting on…no more, no less.

Peace
James

 

[McGaw]

Gotcha

 

[pam2k8]

Thanks, Dale M. for posting Ben Franklin’s quote in context. I’m thrilled that our founding fathers were so wise but I have to pick a nit. We don’t, have never had, and (thank God) are never about to have a Democracy. We have a Constitutional Republic. Democracies become tyrannies; when everybody speaks up, fool or wise man, chaos & shouting take over government & inevitably a strong and dangerous man assumes power. I believe it’s the man on horseback - the horse that’s rearing up maybe in those statues you see occasionally. I’m afraid that the coming despotism will wrap itself in the flag and win over by deceit, and this is the age of deceit, which is why I think we are very near to the end times. Bless you.

 

[rscanl01]

I agree with you. Things are very very bleak for our country.

But… admitting this, as thing continue to decline… the opportunity to shake people up for radical moral and mental change-- for authentic responsiblity grows and grows. If some of us step up and are able to persuade the people of their duty to pursue the common good, through faith in God, it could all be turned around. People can be raised from their sleep.

I do believe that that prediction will come true if no one is able to persuasively articulate our political and moral failings to the people of our country. But I think, to reiterate, decline can be the moment of reversal…a kind of, “O my! Are things really this awful! What was I/we doing?” awakening.