Has "Call no man Father" been settled? Any Non-Catholics still believe this?

[badnewsbarrett]

My brother in law left the Church 25 years ago or so. He used to tell me that we should not call the priest Father because Jesus said “Call no man Father”.

As a Catholic this is complete misreading of context and I can tell you for my BIL it is no longer an issue for him because he does call our priest Father despite not going back to the Catholic church unfortunately.

Since you are a Catholic, I can see why you might call your priest Father. In some sense of the word, I’m sure he is your father. What I wonder is this, however- in what possible sense of the word “Father” would a Catholic priest be my father? I can’t come up with one, so I would prefer to call him Reverend (meaning a person in a leadership role who is worthy of much deference and respect- which to me, he is, but not any sort of father to me).

Perhaps your BIL would be amenable to the “Reverend” compromise, assuming he is not yet aware of that being an option.

At any rate, I would probably be willing to refer to your priest as “your Father,” but I wouldn’t be as willing to address him as if he were my father in some way. It’s the same situation if we were to talk about your actual, biological dad. Without meaning any disrespect to him, he is your dad. Not my dad, not our dad. Your dad, but not my dad. I’m sure he’s a good guy, but he’s not my father in any sense of the word. Likewise, I don’t believe your priest is my father in any sense of the word, although I have no doubt that he is a father to you in some sense of the word.

Is that the only concession you were looking for, or are you also seeking to demonstrate that Catholic priests are spiritual fathers to all Christians and all Christians should address them as such?

 

[SyroMalankara]

It’s up to the non-Catholic… historically, Father (Mother) was used to address monastics, whether priest or not. Reverend for diocesan priests. Then, it became common for diocesans to be called Father, since people recognized and saw them regularly.

In the Byzantine context, Father is used for monks or diocesan priests - ex. Fr. Dn. Bob.

In the Occidental (Latin) Church, Father is used for all priests, although Reverend is acceptable in most places, except in some countries where anti-Catholics used to use the term to disparage Latin Catholic practices.

In the Syriac Churches - and by extension Indian Eastern Churches, Father is commonly used for the diocesan priests and for priest-monks. Our Father/High priest for Bishops, Our Lord Prince for the Catholicos, and Holy Father for the Pope.

I believe the Coptic Churches refer to their priests and monks as Father.

 

[MartinJordan]

Since you are a Catholic, I can see why you might call your priest Father. In some sense of the word, I’m sure he is your father. What I wonder is this, however- in what possible sense of the word “Father” would a Catholic priest be my father? I can’t come up with one, so I would prefer to call him Reverend (meaning a person in a leadership role who is worthy of much deference and respect- which to me, he is, but not any sort of father to me).

Perhaps your BIL would be amenable to the “Reverend” compromise, assuming he is not yet aware of that being an option.

At any rate, I would probably be willing to refer to your priest as “your Father,” but I wouldn’t be as willing to address him as if he were my father in some way. It’s the same situation if we were to talk about your actual, biological dad. Without meaning any disrespect to him, he is your dad. Not my dad, not our dad. Your dad, but not my dad. I’m sure he’s a good guy, but he’s not my father in any sense of the word. Likewise, I don’t believe your priest is my father in any sense of the word, although I have no doubt that he is a father to you in some sense of the word.

Is that the only concession you were looking for, or are you also seeking to demonstrate that Catholic priests are spiritual fathers to all Christians and all Christians should address them as such?

I appreciate the experience in your belief and preference to call a priest reverend. Seems fair. That said I’m not sure what you mean by concession? I’m only concerned for individuals or denominations who take Jesus’ words out of context.

More important to me is to give the honour to the ordained by the sacramental order of ministerial priesthood. The priest is father not because he demands or calls on himself, but since he serves the people of the Church he’s doing The Father’s work. Taking care of the spiritual needs of the people who he is serving.

That’s why I am very comforted to call him Father. Once again he’s not demanding it but for the work he does he is my Father and that goes for all these priests.

MJ

 

[Bradthecatholic]

I’ve never made this claim. But what is the Catholic position on what Jesus was saying?

That Jesus here is using an exaggerating. For example, Jesus says this in Luke 14:26, “If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters–yes, even their own life–such a person cannot be my disciple.” We all know what he means. Besides, in the verses before Matthew 23:9 Jesus says call no man teacher. Yet we call people teachers all the time. It was an exaggeration. Besides, John call clergy “father” in the Bible (1 John 2:13).

 

[dronald]

That Jesus here is using an exaggerating. For example, Jesus says this in Luke 14:26, “If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters–yes, even their own life–such a person cannot be my disciple.” We all know what he means. Besides, in the verses before Matthew 23:9 Jesus says call no man teacher. Yet we call people teachers all the time. It was an exaggeration. Besides, John call clergy “father” in the Bible (1 John 2:13).

You don’t have to prove to me that your interpretation is correct, as I’ve said I have never made the OP’s claim.

I’m asking what the official teaching is on the meaning of the words. Jesus obviously had meaning in every word He spoke; so what message was He trying to get across?

You say it was an exaggeration, so what message was He trying to relay in said exaggeration?

 

[eltoro89]

You don’t have to prove to me that your interpretation is correct, as I’ve said I have never made the OP’s claim.

I’m asking what the official teaching is on the meaning of the words. Jesus obviously had meaning in every word He spoke; so what message was He trying to get across?

You say it was an exaggeration, so what message was He trying to relay in said exaggeration?

This form of writing in the new testament is known as rabbinic hyperbole, a style of teaching by which exaggeration or hyperbole is used to illustrate a certain teaching point. It’s pretty common.

You can’t tell me Jesus literally wanted me to cut my hand off if it causes me to sin. He didn’t. He was employing rabbinic hyperbole. He did not ban the use of referring to people as father. He was stressing that God is our ultimate father and that all glory should go to him.

 

[Indyann]

I would just call them priest or by their proper name. I don’t have a problem with you people saying it I just didn’t grow up catholic.

Just because I have always wanted to ask someone who held to this belief, and never have, may I ask you? What do you call the man who was/is married to your mother?

 

[SteveVH]

Since you are a Catholic, I can see why you might call your priest Father. In some sense of the word, I’m sure he is your father. What I wonder is this, however- in what possible sense of the word “Father” would a Catholic priest be my father? I can’t come up with one, so I would prefer to call him Reverend (meaning a person in a leadership role who is worthy of much deference and respect- which to me, he is, but not any sort of father to me).

Perhaps your BIL would be amenable to the “Reverend” compromise, assuming he is not yet aware of that being an option.

At any rate, I would probably be willing to refer to your priest as “your Father,” but I wouldn’t be as willing to address him as if he were my father in some way. It’s the same situation if we were to talk about your actual, biological dad. Without meaning any disrespect to him, he is your dad. Not my dad, not our dad. Your dad, but not my dad. I’m sure he’s a good guy, but he’s not my father in any sense of the word. Likewise, I don’t believe your priest is my father in any sense of the word, although I have no doubt that he is a father to you in some sense of the word.

Is that the only concession you were looking for, or are you also seeking to demonstrate that Catholic priests are spiritual fathers to all Christians and all Christians should address them as such?

Just as we have biological fathers, we also have spiritual fathers. Paul refers to himself as a “father”:

“Even if you had ten thousand guardians in Christ, you do not have many fathers, for in Christ Jesus I became your father through the gospel.” (1 Cor. 4:15)

In the Catholic Church only the ordained are authorized to read and preach the Gospel during the Liturgy of the Word at Mass. It is through this authority that a priest is rightly called “Father”. He provides for our spiritual needs through proclaiming the Gospel, teaching the Gospel and administering, in the Person of Jesus Christ, the sacraments which give us life.

To refer to our priests as “father” is certainly reasonable and proper.

Blessings.

Steve

 

[Robyn_p]

I’ve never made this claim. But what is the Catholic position on what Jesus was saying?

Basically, the Catholic understanding is that Jesus was warning us about seeking out titles and positions of honor for their own sake and for our own glory, without acknowledging God as the true source of these gifts. You can get a sense of that from the verses immediately preceding 8 and 9.

5 They do all their deeds to be seen by men; for they make their phylacteries broad and their fringes long, 6 and they love the place of honor at feasts and the best seats in the synagogues, 7 and salutations in the market places, and being called rabbi by men.

The pharisees loved being praised by men. They never gave the glory to God, but to themselves. And that’s what we need to avoid as Christians. And that’s what Jesus was getting at.

Does that make sense?

 

[SteveVH]

Basically, the Catholic understanding is that Jesus was warning us about seeking out titles and positions of honor for their own sake and for our own glory, without acknowledging God as the true source of these gifts. You can get a sense of that from the verses immediately preceding 8 and 9.

5 They do all their deeds to be seen by men; for they make their phylacteries broad and their fringes long, 6 and they love the place of honor at feasts and the best seats in the synagogues, 7 and salutations in the market places, and being called rabbi by men.

The pharisees loved being praised by men. They never gave the glory to God, but to themselves. And that’s what we need to avoid as Christians. And that’s what Jesus was getting at.

Does that make sense?

Nice explanation! You have it exactly.

 

[Robyn_p]

Nice explanation! You have it exactly.

Thanks! :tiphat:

 

[Protestor]

Just because I have always wanted to ask someone who held to this belief, and never have, may I ask you? What do you call the man who was/is married to your mother?

Normally I call him by his nickname or Ed. I am not saying that I do not or have not ever called him father. In all seriousness I do not use people’s names often when addressing them. I will only do so if a person is in a group or if it is a serious breach of etiquette to do so.

adf417:

Mr. is derived from master

Why should I care where the term came from? It is not normally used in that sense where I am from in the USA.

SteveVH:

The past posts don’t go far enough down for me to see yours

I am not saying that you should not or that it is wrong for you to do so. All I remember saying is that I would not.

I used quotes to grab the attention of the people who messaged me what you said may not be inside the quotations.

 

[adf417]

Why should I care where the term came from? It is not normally used in that sense where I am from in the USA.

The Catholic doctrine is of universal concerns. I assumed your concerns were of universality as well.

Peace!!!

 

[PaulDupre1]

Since you are a Catholic, I can see why you might call your priest Father. In some sense of the word, I’m sure he is your father. What I wonder is this, however- in what possible sense of the word “Father” would a Catholic priest be my father? I can’t come up with one, so I would prefer to call him Reverend (meaning a person in a leadership role who is worthy of much deference and respect- which to me, he is, but not any sort of father to me).

Perhaps your BIL would be amenable to the “Reverend” compromise, assuming he is not yet aware of that being an option.

At any rate, I would probably be willing to refer to your priest as “your Father,” but I wouldn’t be as willing to address him as if he were my father in some way. It’s the same situation if we were to talk about your actual, biological dad. Without meaning any disrespect to him, he is your dad. Not my dad, not our dad. Your dad, but not my dad. I’m sure he’s a good guy, but he’s not my father in any sense of the word. Likewise, I don’t believe your priest is my father in any sense of the word, although I have no doubt that he is a father to you in some sense of the word.

Is that the only concession you were looking for, or are you also seeking to demonstrate that Catholic priests are spiritual fathers to all Christians and all Christians should address them as such?

Actually, “Reverend” is very acceptable. That is what priests are officially called within the CC. If you go to a rectory where the priests’ names are posted out front, like in my parish, you will see that they are called “The Reverend so and so” or if it is a monsignor “Reverend Monsignor so and so” or for a bishop “The Right Reverend so and so” or for an archbishop “the Very Reverend so and so”.

This is similar to the way clergy are denominated in the Anglican church and (AFAIK) in the Episcopal church.

“Father” and all its variants are really affectionate colloquial familiarisms. So is Pope, btw. It simply means “Papa” and is meant to denote the Pope’s role as a spiritual Father or Papa on earth, as St. Paul described himself (1 Cor 4:15).

So, no worries. Reverend will do nicely. Besides, I have never met a Catholic priest or bishop who really cared about how he was addressed. He mostly desires the opportunity to talk with people and share his faith. After all, he gave up many earthly things and trained for many years to do so.

Paul

 

[MartinJordan]

Actually, “Reverend” is very acceptable. That is what priests are officially called within the CC.

I agree it’s acceptable however in the parishes Ive seen there is always the “Fr.” included. Perhaps it is a way to remind priests that they are spiritual fathers.

If you go to a rectory where the priests’ names are posted out front, like in my parish, you will see that they are called “The Reverend so and so” or if it is a monsignor “Reverend Monsignor so and so” or for a bishop “The Right Reverend so and so” or for an archbishop “the Very Reverend so and so”.

In formal setting it is addressed when introducing the Bishop “Right Reverend…” But when you talk to him one to one what would be the common way to address?

This is similar to the way clergy are denominated in the Anglican church and (AFAIK) in the Episcopal church.

Yes. Our separated brethern.

“Father” and all its variants are really affectionate colloquial familiarisms. So is Pope, btw. It simply means “Papa” and is meant to denote the Pope’s role as a spiritual Father or Papa on earth, as St. Paul described himself (1 Cor 4:15).

Right. We call the Pope, Holy Father.

So, no worries. Reverend will do nicely

It’s nice I agree. That said I feel it is not as affectionate.

Besides, I have never met a Catholic priest or bishop who really cared about how he was addressed. He mostly desires the opportunity to talk with people and share his faith. After all, he gave up many earthly things and trained for many years to do so.

Paul

All the more to call them Father or His Grace, Or Your Grace etc is more Heaven focused imo.

MJ

 

[BernadetteM]

From my understanding of appropriate English, one does not call a clergy man “Reverend” when verbally addressing him. It can be Pastor, Mr., Dr. if he has a Ph.D. or by his first name.

You only use “Reverend” when addressing an envelope, you can also use Reverend Father for Catholic priests either when addressing them in writing or verbally.

Please if we have an English teacher with credentials on CAF, please correct me if I am wrong.

Yours in the Hearts of Jesus and Mary

Bernadette

 

[JonNC]

Actually, “Reverend” is very acceptable. That is what priests are officially called within the CC. If you go to a rectory where the priests’ names are posted out front, like in my parish, you will see that they are called “The Reverend so and so” or if it is a monsignor “Reverend Monsignor so and so” or for a bishop “The Right Reverend so and so” or for an archbishop “the Very Reverend so and so”.

This is similar to the way clergy are denominated in the Anglican church and (AFAIK) in the Episcopal church.

Typical in Lutheranism. My dad was a Lutheran pastor. His title was “The Reverend Doctor _________”. People usually called him Pastor, except Catholics who saw him in town in his clerical collar. They called him “Father”. It was ok by him.

Jon

 

[PaulDupre1]

I agree it’s acceptable however in the parishes Ive seen there is always the “Fr.” included. Perhaps it is a way to remind priests that they are spiritual fathers.

In formal setting it is addressed when introducing the Bishop “Right Reverend…” But when you talk to him one to one what would be the common way to address? Yes. Our separated brethern.

Right. We call the Pope, Holy Father.

It’s nice I agree. That said I feel it is not as affectionate.

All the more to call them Father or His Grace, Or Your Grace etc is more Heaven focused imo.

MJ

Hi Martin,

I agree with you, but I was discussing how a non-Catholic could courteously address a Catholic clergyman if that non-Catholic is uncomfortable with the appellation “Father”.

I, as a Catholic, always* try* to use the titles as you’ve outlined them here.

But when I recently met Bishop Kevin Vann (diocese of Orange, CA) when he visited our parish, I just called him “Bishop” (“Hi Bishop - great homily!”). I could have (and probably should have) called him “Your Grace”, but he seemed like such a warm, simple, unpretentious man that I just called him Bishop without thinking about it. He impressed me as the kind of man who doesn’t care one bit what people call him. And I admire him all the more for that. Sort of like Pope Francis - a shepherd, not a king.

Thanks,

Paul

 

[PaulDupre1]

Typical in Lutheranism. My dad was a Lutheran pastor. His title was “The Reverend Doctor _________”. People usually called him Pastor, except Catholics who saw him in town in his clerical collar. They called him “Father”. It was ok by him.

Jon

Your dad sounds like a nice guy. You’re blessed.

Paul

 

[SteveVH]

Hi Martin,

I agree with you, but I was discussing how a non-Catholic could courteously address a Catholic clergyman if that non-Catholic is uncomfortable with the appellation “Father”.

I, as a Catholic, always* try* to use the titles as you’ve outlined them here.

But when I recently met Bishop Kevin Vann (diocese of Orange, CA) when he visited our parish, I just called him “Bishop” (“Hi Bishop - great homily!”). I could have (and probably should have) called him “Your Grace”, but he seemed like such a warm, simple, unpretentious man that I just called him Bishop without thinking about it. He impressed me as the kind of man who doesn’t care one bit what people call him. And I admire him all the more for that. Sort of like Pope Francis - a shepherd, not a king.

Thanks,

Paul

“Bishop” is a perfectly good way to address the Bishop. Most that I have known would prefer it over some other title.