Has Christianity Succeeded or Failed?

[Charlemagne_II]

Aelred

**I think you are right. A development merely happening when the Church had a more prominent role in Western Civilization does not mean the Church invented that thing. You have to look at how it actually came about. **

Without saying the Church invented things when it had a more prominent role, we can certainly say that many great churchmen and Christians sponsored and made many great contributions to the advancement of civilization. During the Middle Ages the Church encouraged the foundation of the university system and hospitals. During the Renaissance, the Church promoted the advancement of science, Galileo notwithstanding. Other civilizations, great and small, stood still while the Christian civilization advanced by leaps and bounds.

 

[meltzerboy]

Aelred

**I think you are right. A development merely happening when the Church had a more prominent role in Western Civilization does not mean the Church invented that thing. You have to look at how it actually came about. **

Without saying the Church invented things when it had a more prominent role, we can certainly say that many great churchmen and Christians sponsored and made many great contributions to the advancement of civilization. During the Middle Ages the Church encouraged the foundation of the university system and hospitals. During the Renaissance, the Church promoted the advancement of science, Galileo notwithstanding. Other civilizations, great and small, stood still while the Christian civilization advanced by leaps and bounds.

Not denying anything you say, but credit must also be given to Renaissance humanism from the period of about 1400 to the mid 1600’s. Humanism has several meanings and is not always a dirty word as it appears to be regarded by many on the Forum.

 

[Aelred_Minor]

Aelred

**I think you are right. A development merely happening when the Church had a more prominent role in Western Civilization does not mean the Church invented that thing. You have to look at how it actually came about. **

Without saying the Church invented things when it had a more prominent role, we can certainly say that many great churchmen and Christians sponsored and made many great contributions to the advancement of civilization. During the Middle Ages the Church encouraged the foundation of the university system and hospitals. During the Renaissance, the Church promoted the advancement of science, Galileo notwithstanding. Other civilizations, great and small, stood still while the Christian civilization advanced by leaps and bounds.

Agreed.

 

[Aelred_Minor]

Not denying anything you say, but credit must also be given to Renaissance humanism from the period of about 1400 to the mid 1600’s. Humanism has several meanings and is not always a dirty word as it appears to be regarded by many on the Forum.

Some of that humanism was quite Catholic. Other times of course it was not, but even in those cases it is doubtful there would have been a Western Civilization to be reborn without the Catholic Church. It is impossible to say for sure of course, but I suspect that without the Catholic Church the great Roman civilization would have been as extinct as those of Ancient Egypt or Sumeria.

 

[meltzerboy]

Some of that humanism was quite Catholic. Other times of course it was not, but even in those cases it is doubtful there would have been a Western Civilization to be reborn without the Catholic Church. It is impossible to say for sure of course, but I suspect that without the Catholic Church the great Roman civilization would have been as extinct as those of Ancient Egypt or Sumeria.

I’m sure there were mutual influences. And let’s not forget the Golden Age of Spain, in which Islamic civilization made major contributions. Further, there is the civilization of China that played its role. But I agree the Catholic Church was extremely significant in the development of Western civilization.

 

[Aelred_Minor]

I’m sure there were mutual influences. And let’s not forget the Golden Age of Spain, in which Islamic civilization made major contributions. Further, there is the civilization of China that played its role. But I agree the Catholic Church was extremely significant in the development of Western civilization.

Islamic civilization certainly had its influence on the West in many positive ways (where it didn’t annihilate Western Civilization, that is). Part of this was from Spain, part through what the crusaders brought back home, and no doubt there were other channels. It affected many aspects of culture: philosophy, mathematics, cuisine, the arts, and surely other things I don’t know or don’t recall. Really for most of the Middle Ages Western Civilization existed on the backwater boarders of Islamic Civilization, not the other way around. Also, the great struggle against Islam was the occasion for some Western internal developments like the ideals of chivalry.

I have a hard time imagining what China’s role in the preservation and enrichment of Western Civilization could have been. Sure there was some trade at various times, most famously involving silk, and there was a brief link between China and Europe in the form of the Mongolian empire, but all that doesn’t add up to much lasting influence as far as I can see. Or do you just mean that it was a major civilization in its own right? If we are going there we could mention India and the American civilizations as well, and of course the entire pre-Christian history of the Mediterranean region. Clearly pagans can build civilizations, there is no doubt about that.

 

[underacloud]

Q: Has Christianity Succeeded or Failed?

A: Read the Book of Revelations. The answers are all in there.

Spoiler Alert: Christ (and thus Christianity) wins!

 

[Aelred_Minor]

Q: Has Christianity Succeeded or Failed?

A: Read the Book of Revelations. The answers are all in there.

Spoiler Alert: Christ (and thus Christianity) wins!

Good point. Futurist interpretations aren’t the foremost aspect of the book of Revelation in my own mind, though I think that is one dimension of the book. It does bring up two very important points though. The first and ultimately the most important is the one you mention, that Christ wins in the end. But also there is the fact that there will be a time, or many times, beforehand when Satan seems to have the upper hand and the Church seems to have lost. It should not surprise us if the history of the Church is like this, for after all “a servant is not greater than his Master.”

 

[Charlemagne_II]

meltzerboy

**Not denying anything you say, but credit must also be given to Renaissance humanism from the period of about 1400 to the mid 1600’s. Humanism has several meanings and is not always a dirty word as it appears to be regarded by many on the Forum. **

Humanism, especially the 20th century variety, has devolved into atheistic materialism and is a poor foundation for the building of human values. This every humanist will hotly deny, but it’s true anyway. Christ is not at the center of humanism. And where Christ is not at the center, all is lost.

 

[Aelred_Minor]

meltzerboy

**Not denying anything you say, but credit must also be given to Renaissance humanism from the period of about 1400 to the mid 1600’s. Humanism has several meanings and is not always a dirty word as it appears to be regarded by many on the Forum. **

Humanism, especially the 20th century variety, has devolved into atheistic materialism and is a poor foundation for the building of human values. This every humanist will hotly deny, but it’s true anyway. Christ is not at the center of humanism. And where Christ is not at the center, all is lost.

Unless we are talking about an authentic Christian humanism, where we might say that first and foremost Jesus Christ is the Human at the center of it.

 

[Aloysium]

There are many in the modern world who claim that Christianity is failing and will soon disappear, to be supplanted by some other religion (Islam?) or by the Secular Nanny State.

They have never attended a World Youth Day.

Some believe too that Christianity is false, and that what is false cannot be good for the human race.

They have no true knowledge of the teachings of the church.

What say you? On balance has Christianity been good for human civilization?

I don’t know.

Yes or no? Why?

There is no control group, no world without Christ.

Two thousand years of history to prove it either way.

It’s all in the perspective. Maybe Adam and Eve lived for thousands of years in the presence of God before sinning. Would anything here compare to the peace and glory of Eden or the world to come?

Anyway, that’s how I see it.

 

[Charlemagne_II]

Aelred
**
Unless we are talking about an authentic Christian humanism, where we might say that first and foremost Jesus Christ is the Human at the center of it. **

That would need to be called “Christian Humanism.”

 

[Blue_Horizon]

****There are many in the modern world who claim that Christianity is failing and will soon disappear, to be supplanted by some other religion (Islam?) or by the Secular Nanny State.

Some believe too that Christianity is false, and that what is false cannot be good for the human race.

What say you? On balance has Christianity been good for human civilization?

Yes or no? Why?

Two thousand years of history to prove it either way.****

Why does “good for human civilisation” have to be the criteria of success?

 

[Jeanne1184]

****There are many in the modern world who claim that Christianity is failing and will soon disappear, to be supplanted by some other religion (Islam?) or by the Secular Nanny State.

Some believe too that Christianity is false, and that what is false cannot be good for the human race.

What say you? On balance has Christianity been good for human civilization?

Yes or no? Why?

Two thousand years of history to prove it either way.****

The view from here is that all religions have failed. The Indwelling of the Holy Spirit is what makes the difference between ‘religious but lost’ and living saints/apostles.

Rom. 8:14 - For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God.

Blaise Pascal said, “We must have a Fixed Point in order to judge our course.”

 

[Pedro_1987]

Christianity has not and never will fail. We may lose our majority status. We are losing our hold on the world as it becomes increasingly immoral. We may even be persecuted like in the old days (according to Revelations, it’ll happen close to the end times). But we will never completely fail and be extinguished. God wouldn’t let that happen.