Has Ecumenism changed the meaning of EENS?

[reconman]

Please substantiate this claim. This is not what the CCC says.

lol… yes it is.

“God has bound salvation to the Sacrament of Baptism, but He Himself is not bound by His sacraments” (Catechism, no. 1257)

"Because God is not bound by the sacraments, He makes the grace of salvation available to all in ways unknown to us. This is the basis for the Church’s teaching on “Baptism of desire” ( Catechism, nos. 1258-60, 1281).

 

[thewanderer]

lol… yes it is.

“God has bound salvation to the Sacrament of Baptism, but He Himself is not bound by His sacraments” (Catechism, no. 1257)

"Because God is not bound by the sacraments, He makes the grace of salvation available to all in ways unknown to us. This is the basis for the Church’s teaching on “Baptism of desire” ( Catechism, nos. 1258-60, 1281).

Note that this passage references the very teaching of baptism by desire that I previously refered to but you seem to continually ignore.

You can talk about baptism as simply baptism by water or you can talk about baptism as any one of the different forms of baptism. Yes, the CCC says that Baptism by water is not necessary for salvation, but it nowhere says that no form of baptism is neccessary. Instead it **brings up this same notion of baptsim by desire that I have been trying to get you to acknowledge as a form of baptism and entry into the Church. **

 

[reconman]

Note that this passage references the very teaching of baptism by desire that I previously refered to but you seem to continually ignore.

I’m not ignoring anything. You don’t like my position on this. I get that. But you’re only digging a deeper hole for yourself with this “baptism of desire” stuff. The ccc clearly states that non catholics can be saved, “baptism of desire” or not.

Yes, the CCC says that Baptism by water is not necessary for salvation, but it nowhere says that no form of baptism is neccessary.

Yes it does. read this again:

"Because God is not bound by the sacraments, *He makes the grace of salvation available to all *in ways unknown to us. This is the basis for the Church’s teaching on “Baptism of desire” ( Catechism, 1258-60, 1281).

Get it? God can baptize whomever He wishes, in any way He wishes…

 

[thewanderer]

I’m not ignoring anything. You don’t like my position on this. I get that. But you’re only digging a deeper hole for yourself with this “baptism of desire” stuff. The ccc clearly states that non catholics can be saved, “baptism of desire” or not.

This is your particular interpretation. Nowhere does the CCC explicitly state that there anyone will be saved without one of the forms of baptism that the Church has already enumerated. We must interpret the CCC in light of all of the Church’s past teachings

Yes it does. read this again:

"Because God is not bound by the sacraments, *He makes the grace of salvation available to all *in ways unknown to us. This is the basis for the Church’s teaching on “Baptism of desire” ( Catechism, 1258-60, 1281).

Get it? God can baptize whomever He wishes, in any way He wishes…

Yes, God can baptize whomever he wishes. However he has made clear the means he has chosen through the teachings of the Church which is infallibly guided by the Holy Spirit.

I can’t help but note that you highlighted the words “made available to all”… I really hope you are not still under the false impression that my understanding of Church teaching contradicts the idea that Salvation is made available to all. I have already explained how baptism by desire solves that apparant contradiction.

 

[reconman]

This is your particular interpretation. Nowhere does the CCC explicitly state that there anyone will be saved without one of the forms of baptism that the Church has already enumerated. We must interpret the CCC in light of all of the Church’s past teachings

Interpretation? There is no interpretation! That’s what the ccc is for! It explains (interprets) church teaching for us laymen so that we can understand this teaching.

Yes, God can baptize whomever he wishes. However he has made clear the means he has chosen through the teachings of the Church which is infallibly guided by the Holy Spirit.

Yes exactly. Hence the words “made available to all.”

I can’t help but note that you highlighted the words “made available to all”… I really hope you are not still under the false impression that my understanding of Church teaching contradicts the idea that Salvation is made available to all. I have already explained how baptism by desire solves that apparant contradiction.

I’m not under any false impression. You clearly stated that you believe there is no salvation outside the church. Now that you have been proven wrong (several times), you are backtracking into “baptism by desire.”

 

[thewanderer]

Interpretation? There is no interpretation! That’s what the ccc is for! It explains (interprets) church teaching for us laymen so that we can understand this teaching.

Yes exactly. Hence the words “made available to all.”

I’m not under any false impression. You clearly stated that you believe there is no salvation outside the church. Now that you have been proven wrong (several times), you are backtracking into “baptism by desire.”

The fact that you think I am “backtracking” proves that you never bothered to read my first post. The fact that you continue to believe that the phrase “no salvation outside the Church” is heretical shows that you have been making no effort to actually listen to what I have been saying and are more interested in either simply arguing for the sake of it or being right than actually coming to the truth. I am tired of repeating myself and am not interested in arguing with someone who refuses to bother to try to understand what I write, so I am done here. I have clearly shown how there is no contradiction between the idea of no salvation outside of the church and the CCC, as anybody who bothers to make an effor to understand what I’ve actually written can see. I hope that some day you will calm down enough to realize that one’s own preferred wording is not more important than the meaning being conveyed and so be able to realize what I have been trying to explain to you.
I wish you all the best.

 

[wasserfall]

Yes. The possibility that God can choose to make someone a member of His Church outside of the sacraments should never be denied.

We are not in ignorance of what God chooses to do.
The dogmas of the Church were revealed to the Church by God and tell us what God chooses to do.

To insist upon the permanence and irreformability of the revealed dogmas of the Church is not to deny God’s freedom of action.

 

[sdegutis]

Interpretation? There is no interpretation! That’s what the ccc is for! It explains (interprets) church teaching for us laymen so that we can understand this teaching.

Yes exactly. Hence the words “made available to all.”

I’m not under any false impression. You clearly stated that you believe there is no salvation outside the church. Now that you have been proven wrong (several times), you are backtracking into “baptism by desire.”

reconman, if you don’t mind me asking, how old are you?

 

[wasserfall]

This whole thread is a total waste of time.

Reasoned argument, and quotes from saints, popes, doctors, fathers of the Church, ecumenical councils, dogmatic manuals, etc. are simply ignored and people just repost exactly what has already been addressed 3 (or more) pages ago.

Someday we will once again have some unambiguous, non-confusing, crystal clear teaching from the magisterium. Who knows how many souls will have to damned through ignorance and apostasy until then.

 

[Melchior_1]

This whole thread is a total waste of time.

Reasoned argument, and quotes from saints, popes, doctors, fathers of the Church, ecumenical councils, dogmatic manuals, etc. are simply ignored and people just repost exactly what has already been addressed 3 (or more) pages ago.

Someday we will once again have some unambiguous, non-confusing, crystal clear teaching from the magisterium. Who knows how many souls will have to damned through ignorance and apostasy until then.

I’m going to say this for a third time; you and reconman could very well be talking about two sides of the same coin.

• No salvation unless you are Catholic.
• Those who are not Catholic in a temporal sense CAN achieve salvation if they choose Catholicism when they die.
• How they live on Earth will likely dictate that choice.
• A Sacramental lifestyle will obviously make your pre-disposed to said choice.
• A choice that everyone makes.

 

[thewanderer]

I’m going to say this for a third time; you and reconman could very well be talking about two sides of the same coin.

• No salvation unless you are Catholic.
• Those who are not Catholic in a temporal sense CAN achieve salvation if they choose Catholicism when they die.
• How they live on Earth will likely dictate that choice.
• A Sacramental lifestyle will obviously make your pre-disposed to said choice.
• A choice that everyone makes.

Agreed!

I think everyone is actually pretty much on the same page … they just don’t like the language that other people are using for some reason and are fighting over phrases rather than realities.

 

[wasserfall]

Agreed!

I think everyone is actually pretty much on the same page … they just don’t like the language that other people are using for some reason and are fighting over phrases rather than realities.

Ok, I told myself I was done because I’m tired of spending time researching and writing only to have my posts completely ignored, nothing that I bring up addressed, and instead the person I was responding to just reposting their original comment.

But since there is a new point here, I wish to go ahead and add…

Melchior, once the soul leaves the body, its disposition is fixed.
It is not possible for a person, once dead, to choose to become Catholic.
This is the teaching of the Church.

However, there are anecdotal stories of people converting in the last few seconds of their lives and thus obtaining salvation.

Presumably this could happen even though a person is unconscious and no signs of life are visible. As long as the soul has not departed the body, the person is not yet dead.

 

[Julia_Mae]

“The Most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, also Jews, heretics, and schismatics can ever be partakers of eternal life, but that they are to go into the eternal fire ‘which was prepared for the devil and his angels’ (Mt. 25:41) unless before death they are joined with Her… No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ can be saved unless they abide within the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.”
-Pope Eugene IV, ex cathedra, Council of Florence, Cantate Domino (1441 AD)

Here is Church teaching as of 2012:

catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/1202023.htm
ROME (CNS) --** The Catholic Church’s relationship to Judaism as taught by the Second Vatican Council and the interpretations and developments of that teaching by subsequent popes, “are binding on a Catholic,” said the Vatican official responsible for relations with the Jews.**

Swiss Cardinal Kurt Koch, president of the Pontifical Commission for Religious Relations with the Jews and a member of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, spoke to reporters May 16 after delivering a speech on Catholic-Jewish relations in light of Vatican II’s declaration “Nostra Aetate” on the church’s relations with non-Christian religions.

In his speech at Rome’s Pontifical University of St. Thomas Aquinas, Cardinal Koch said “Nostra Aetate” is “the ‘foundation document’ and the ‘Magna Carta’ of the dialogue of the Roman Catholic Church with Judaism.”

While Catholics profess that, in the end, all salvation will be accomplished through Jesus Christ, “it does not necessarily follow that the Jews are excluded from God’s salvation because they do not believe in Jesus Christ as the Messiah of Israel and the son of God,” the cardinal said. "That the Jews are participants in God’s salvation is theologically unquestionable, but how that can be possible without confessing Christ explicitly is and remains an unfathomable divine mystery."

The OP said: I haven’t formed an opinion on this yet…

We don’t get to form opinions. Vatican II formed them for us. Jews (and others who are members of the Church in the way you and I are) can be saved. In fact, there is no person the Church claims cannot be saved.

Read this for yourself to be correctly informed:

DECLARATION ON
THE RELATION OF THE CHURCH TO NON-CHRISTIAN RELIGIONS
NOSTRA AETATE
PROCLAIMED BY HIS HOLINESS
POPE PAUL VI
ON OCTOBER 28, 1965

BTW, denying the validity of the 2nd Vatican Council would make us heretics.

 

[Diana_Catherine]

We don’t get to form opinions. Vatican II formed them for us. .

Not just Vatican II but all the other councils that came before Vatican II.

BTW, denying the validity of the 2nd Vatican Council would make us heretics.

Just as it is wrong to deny any of the teaching that came before Vatican II.

 

[Melchior_1]

I think everyone is actually pretty much on the same page … they just don’t like the language that other people are using for some reason and are fighting over phrases rather than realities.

Pretty much.

Melchior, once the soul leaves the body, its disposition is fixed.It is not possible for a person, once dead, to choose to become Catholic.
This is the teaching of the Church.

I know you’ve posted several research related items already in this thread (and that you feel no one has read them), but could you point me towards one that discusses this? I want to make sure my thoughts on this matter are inline with the Church.

There’s a part of me that seriously thinks that when a hardcore Jewish fella passes away and sees Christ, Jesus might give him one more chance by saying :hello friend, now is your chance to acknowledge you were a bit behind on the whole ‘Messiah’ business". Or say to a Muslim “I’m a bit more than a mere ‘prophet’. Do you agree?”

 

[thewanderer]

Ok, I told myself I was done because I’m tired of spending time researching and writing only to have my posts completely ignored, nothing that I bring up addressed, and instead the person I was responding to just reposting their original comment.

But since there is a new point here, I wish to go ahead and add…

Melchior, once the soul leaves the body, its disposition is fixed.
It is not possible for a person, once dead, to choose to become Catholic.
This is the teaching of the Church.

However, there are anecdotal stories of people converting in the last few seconds of their lives and thus obtaining salvation.

Presumably this could happen even though a person is unconscious and no signs of life are visible. As long as the soul has not departed the body, the person is not yet dead.

Whether a baptism by desire occurss moments before death or after death hardly makes a difference as to who can be saved, which is what the controversy here was about. I am open to either possibility, although, of coursse, if the Church has an official teaching on it I will accept it as true. But I really don’t see how it makes much of a difference.

 

[Melchior_1]

Whether a baptism by desire occurss moments before death or after death hardly makes a difference as to who can be saved, which is what the controversy here was about. I am open to either possibility, although, of coursse, if the Church has an official teaching on it I will accept it as true. But I really don’t see how it makes much of a difference.

Great point! The description(s) I was providing was essentially a detailed baptism of desire, and you summed up the possible timing(s) nicely.

 

[thewanderer]

Here is Church teaching as of 2012:
catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/1202023.htm
ROME (CNS) --** The Catholic Church’s relationship to Judaism as taught by the Second Vatican Council and the interpretations and developments of that teaching by subsequent popes, “are binding on a Catholic,”** said the Vatican official responsible for relations with the Jews.

Swiss Cardinal Kurt Koch, president of the Pontifical Commission for Religious Relations with the Jews and a member of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, spoke to reporters May 16 after delivering a speech on Catholic-Jewish relations in light of Vatican II’s declaration “Nostra Aetate” on the church’s relations with non-Christian religions.

In his speech at Rome’s Pontifical University of St. Thomas Aquinas, Cardinal Koch said “Nostra Aetate” is “the ‘foundation document’ and the ‘Magna Carta’ of the dialogue of the Roman Catholic Church with Judaism.”

While Catholics profess that, in the end, all salvation will be accomplished through Jesus Christ, “it does not necessarily follow that the Jews are excluded from God’s salvation because they do not believe in Jesus Christ as the Messiah of Israel and the son of God,” the cardinal said. "That the Jews are participants in God’s salvation is theologically unquestionable, but how that can be possible without confessing Christ explicitly is and remains an unfathomable divine mystery."
The OP said: I haven’t formed an opinion on this yet…

We don’t get to form opinions. Vatican II formed them for us. Jews (and others who are members of the Church in the way you and I are) can be saved. In fact, there is no person the Church claims cannot be saved.

Read this for yourself to be correctly informed:

DECLARATION ON
THE RELATION OF THE CHURCH TO NON-CHRISTIAN RELIGIONS
NOSTRA AETATE
PROCLAIMED BY HIS HOLINESS
POPE PAUL VI
ON OCTOBER 28, 1965

BTW, denying the validity of the 2nd Vatican Council would make us heretics.

Just curious, do you agree that my presentation of implicit baptism by desire allows ffor the possibility that such people be saved?

 

[wasserfall]

Here is Church teaching as of 2012:

Church teaching on faith and morals doesn’t change so it doesn’t matter what year it is.

The Catholic Church’s relationship to Judaism as taught by the Second Vatican Council and the interpretations and developments of that teaching by subsequent popes, “are binding on a Catholic,” said the Vatican official responsible for relations with the Jews.

Swiss Cardinal Kurt Koch, president of the Pontifical Commission for Religious

This is not Church teaching. This is the opinion of Cardinal Koch, which was openly contradicted mere days later by Cardinal Brandmüller, who declared Nostra Aetate and Dignitatis Humanae “non-binding”

catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/1202076.htm

BTW, denying the validity of the 2nd Vatican Council would make us heretics.

What in the world do you mean by “denying the validity”?
I’m not aware of any Catholic who denies that the 2nd Vatican Council was an actual ecumenical council.

But I am aware of Catholics who say that Vatican II defined no dogma and changed no doctrine. One such Catholic, for example, is Pope Benedict XVI who, as Cardinal Ratzinger said in 1988:

The truth is that this particular Council defined no dogma at all, and deliberately
chose to remain on a modest level, as a merely pastoral council; and yet many treat
it as though it had made itself into a sort of superdogma which takes away the
importance of all the rest.

 

[MariaG]

I am pleased that a few think it is just semantics going on here.

But just to find out, let me ask this question. No need to quote anything. Just your answer with the understanding that whichever answer, lots could be cited.

Is a validly baptized practicing Lutheran part of the Church? Let’s make it even easier, is a newly baptized Lutheran infant part of the Church?