This is right, except you forgot to mention that most of those who have actually joined the Catholic Church themselves will also be damned. The number of Catholic members to enter heaven will be exceedingly small compared to the total number of actual members baptized into the Church.
Yup. Sorry I made you do this but there are a few here who think everyone is saying the same thing and it is just semantics. I thought they were wrong and there is more than just semantics going on in this discussion.Back to this huh?
I say No, because baptists baptize adults who already, at the very moment of baptism, have made a conscious decision to reject the Catholic Church.
The baptism is a valid baptism, but the one baptized is placed outside the Church right at the moment of baptism.
(By the way, I have never read anything authoritative on this specific question about baptist baptism. My answer is just my general sense of what is correct based on hearing sermons and general reading on the subjects of baptism, protestants, etc.)
Oh, and how do you know this? Do you have a super-secret device which can penetrate and decipher the human soul?
I believe that it is being interprete that a person must be in a formal membership in the Catholic Church in order to be saved. That although the Church says it is possible to be saved that in practice it is really impossible which I don’t believe is the actual position of the Church.Well, can you please explain what aspect of it you believe is being misinterpreted? I believve it will help with this discussion greatly if we can clarfiy exactly what is being claimed by each person.
Indeed. I would argue that most Catholics are not members of The Church.
It’s what the Saints have said.
Actually reconman, I have read the Catechism, and I know that I am not contradicting it. I have tried to explain this to you but you refuse to try to understand what I am actually saying and instead assume I am saying something that I am not. Please stop insulting me. And do not make the claime that the doctrine that there is no salvation outside of the Church contradicts the CCC until you have addressed my arguments. I realize that you claim that you have done so, but you really have not. You have continually picked out pieces of what I have said ignoring their context as well as the rest of what I have said, then twisted those particular phrases to assume that they mean something that is completely contradictory to what I have actually said and mean. I have explained this to you, but you ignore my explanations and refuse to pay any attention to what I am actually saying. I have presented arguments to show that the CCC does not contradict this doctrine, but you have completely failed to address them, instead you completely ignored them. So again I must ask you to stop insulting me and to stop perpetrating falsehoods both about what I believe and about what the Church teaches. If you want to have an actual discussion I am more than willing to get involved, but you are simply attacking me without making any effort to understand me and I must ask you to stop this. This is neither charitable or Christian, and I hope that you can realize this without assuming that I have any illwill towards you. On the contrary I hope that you can grow in your undersatnding of the virtue of charity and in how to actually take part in a conversation with others you do not agree with ( nor at least seem to disagree with) and I will say a prayer for this end and for you and your intentions in general.
Wasserfall and I have both admitted that it is possible for one who is not visibly a formal member of the Church to be saved. The distinction we are making is that even if someone who is not visibly a member of the Church is to attain salvation it will only be through entry into the Church through one of the forms of baptism previously brought up in this thread. So, to be clear, neither of us is claiming that it is impossible for someone who through no fault of their own does not formally become Catholic to attain salvation. Rather, what we are trying to point out is that such a person will attain salvation only through becoming a part of the Catholic Church through one of the forms of baptsim previously brought up. Do you agree with this? Or do you still think there is a misinterpretation occuring?
It was the phrase used in the source you quoted. No big deal.I did not use this phrase perhaps you are referring to another poster
It was not my intention to insult you. If I did, my apologies.
It is an intellectual opinion which is perfectly legitimate within the Catholic Church. It is one of those matters upon which the Church has made no definitive statement and so Catholics are allowed to hold their own opinions so long as they are willing to give up their own opinions should the church’s teaching ever contradict them. It is similarly a legitimate opinion to believe that most catholics will attain salvation. One will not contradict any church doctrine through either belief. It is precisely that, a personal belief. So long as it is not presented as Church doctrine than we should not let it upset us, everyone is entitled to their own opininion as to the number that will be saved. It ultimately does not matter. What matters is our own adherence to the Catholic Faith and her doctrines and whether or not we truly live as Christians. Please do not let it bother you too much. There are many people with many different opinions about all sorts of things, but in the end, as the Bible says, it is all vanity.
we must all remember this about our personal opinions. In the long run, they are worth absolutely nothing. All that matters is God and His Love. Follow His teachings and exude true Charity and be at peace.That is what I have found insulting as I have explained to you why that is not contradictory to anything I have said yet without addressing any of my actual arguments you insist on claiming that I am misunderstanding the CCC. I appreciate the aplogy. Thank you for that. but please, do not claim that I am misunderstanding it without addressing my explanation as to why I am not misunderstanding it first.
Actually, the Church has existed for 2000 years. The Jews who followed the law were redeemed by Jesus before He rose again. Those Jews were not outside the Church… In fact they became the first Catholic Saints.
True
False.
Adrift; Unam Sanctam clarified in one sentence italics mine (from catholic encyclopedia):
Assuming you mean blood instead of fire, and you are speaking of Catecumens, then yes. They are properly considered Catholics, not non-Catholics.
It is not “simply” a legitimate personal understanding. 1) It is a Church doctrine, but I don’t claim it is a dogma. There are various levels of authority of doctrines of the Church. 2) It is the same understanding as the great majority of popes, saints, fathers, and doctors of the Church. (Although I should add that the idea of baptism by implicit desire is itself non-dogmatic, so there may well be no baptism of implicit desire at all.)
I would argue that you don’t know what “The Church” means.
According to the CCC, the Church is “the Temple of the Holy Spirit”. The Holy Spirit works through Jesus in the Sacraments and the members… Members are here, in heaven and in purgatory.
We are not in disagreement however I am not sure that wasserfall is agreement.Wasserfall and I have both admitted that it is possible for one who is not visibly a formal member of the Church to be saved. The distinction we are making is that even if someone who is not visibly a member of the Church is to attain salvation it will only be through entry into the Church through one of the forms of baptism previously brought up in this thread. So, to be clear, neither of us is claiming that it is impossible for someone who through no fault of their own does not formally become Catholic to attain salvation. Rather, what we are trying to point out is that such a person will attain salvation only through becoming a part of the Catholic Church through one of the forms of baptsim previously brought up. Do you agree with this? Or do you still think there is a misinterpretation occuring?
It was the phrase used in the source you quoted. No big deal.
A catholic in sin, is outside of the Mystical Body.
