Has Ecumenism changed the meaning of EENS?

[sdegutis]

Julia Mae:

“The former regulation is set aside because it was weak and useless (for the Law made nothing perfect), and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God.” (Hebrews 7, NIV)

Note the word “useless”

 

[clem456]

The Gospel of Luke chapter 1

“Blessed be the Lord, the God of Israel,

for he has visited and brought redemption to his people.k
69* He has raised up a horn for our salvation

within the house of David his servant,l
70even as he promised through the mouth of his holy prophets from of old:

71salvation from our enemies and from the hand of all who hate us,m
72to show mercy to our fathersn
and to be mindful of his holy covenanto
73and of the oath he swore to Abraham our father,p
and to grant us that,

74rescued from the hand of enemies,

without fear we might worship him

75in holiness and righteousness

before him all our days.q
76And you, child, will be called prophet of the Most High,

for you will go before the Lord* to prepare his ways,r
77to give his people knowledge of salvation

through the forgiveness of their sins,

78because of the tender mercy of our Gods
by which the daybreak from on high* will visit ust
79to shine on those who sit in darkness and death’s shadow,

to guide our feet into the path of peace.”

 

[ready]

No problem, I hope I helped answer your question.

I.F.

Yes, ImmaculataFides, you did help answer my question. Thanks! It appears I have received the same traditional instruction as you. The things you said were not foreign to me at all. Peace!

 

[Julia_Mae]

Julia Mae:

“The former regulation is set aside because it was weak and useless (for the Law made nothing perfect), and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God.” (Hebrews 7, NIV)

Note the word “useless”

Couple things. The only thing of moment ITT is what the Church says. That’s it. We’re Catholic. It’s all about what the Church says.

2nd, it’s a sort of classic Protestant trick to take a singe phrase out of Scripture, especially from Paul, and try to make it “prove” some bad theology. I’m disappointed to see a catholic use it, frankly. So, you want this is mean… WHAT exactly?

Now I’ve read the whole chapter, as well as the whole letter, and this verse is not relevant to this discussion.

You can make the case if you want to, but in the end, only the Church gets to interpret Scripture. So your argument would be, well, useless, I guess.

 

[Julia_Mae]

From an earlier post:

The doctrine that “Outside the Church there is no salvation” is one that is constantly misinterpreted by those who won’t submit to the Magisterium of the Church. Faith does not depend upon our ability to reason to the truth but on our humility before the Truth presented to us by those to whom Christ entrusted that task. This is why the First Vatican Council taught that it is the task of the Magisterium ALONE to determine and expound the meaning of the Tradition - including "outside the Church no salvation."Concerning this doctrine the Pope of Vatican I, Pius IX, spoke on two different occasions. In an allocution (address to an audience) on December 9th, 1854 he said:

We must hold as of the faith, that out of the Apostolic Roman Church there is no salvation; that she is the only ark of safety, and whosoever is not in her perishes in the deluge; we must also, on the other hand, recognize with certainty that those who are invincible in ignorance of the true religion are not guilty for this in the eyes of the Lord. And who would presume to mark out the limits of this ignorance according to the character and diversity of peoples, countries, minds and the rest?

Again, in his encyclical Quanto conficiamur moerore of 10 August, 1863 addressed to the Italian bishops, he said:

It is known to us and to you that those who are in invincible ignorance of our most holy religion, but who observe carefully the natural law, and the precepts graven by God upon the hearts of all men, and who being disposed to obey God lead an honest and upright life, may, aided by the light of divine grace, attain to eternal life; for God who sees clearly, searches and knows the heart, the disposition, the thoughts and intentions of each, in His supreme mercy and goodness by no means permits that anyone suffer eternal punishment, who has not of his own free will fallen into sin.

These statements are consistent with the understanding of the Church contained in the documents of Vatican II, and the Catechism of the Catholic Church, as well as explaining why **the rigorist position of Fr. Feeney (that all must be actual members of the Catholic Church to be saved) has been condemned by the Magisterium. **It is ironic that precisely those who know their obligation to remain united to the Magisterium, and thus on whom this doctrine is morally binding, keep themselves from union with the Roman See on this point.

Disagreeing with this means you are not in union with the Pope. We don’t get to decide this. To undertsand differently, is an oxymoron.

 

[nuntym]

+JMJ+

I think this is a good time to post the following, to prove that Fr. Feeney’s “rigorist position” IS NOT the traditional position of the Catholic Church, but rather a RELATIVELY NEW theology:

“We have been taught that Christ is the first-begotten of God, and we have declared him to be the Logos of which all mankind partakes [John 1:9]. Those, therefore, who lived according to reason [Greek: logos] were really Christians, even though they were thought to be atheists, such as, among the Greeks, Socrates, Heraclitus, and others like them. . . . Those who lived before Christ but did not live according to reason [logos] were wicked men, and enemies of Christ, and murderers of those who did live according to reason [logos], whereas those who lived then or who live now according to reason [logos]are Christians. Such as these can be confident and unafraid.” (St. Justin Martyr, First Apology 46,** c. 150 AD**)

Even in the old Catholic Encyclopedia (1917), Fr. Feeney’s “rigorist position” is not supported:

But, not to close the gates of heaven against pagans and those non-Catholics, who without their fault do not know or do not recognize the Sacraments of Baptism and Penance, Catholic theologians unanimously hold that the desire to receive these sacraments is implicitly contained in the serious resolve to do all that God has commanded, even if His holy will should not become known in every detail.

Source

In fact, I would even dare say Fr. Feeney’s position on this matter is heresy, trusting his own interpretation of Catholic Tradition (some, including myself, call this “Sola Tradition”, like the “Sola Scriptura” approach by Protestants) instead of following the Magisterium.

 

[ImmaculataFides]

So much error and deception. Not to mention horrible slander and calumny. I will respond with true doctrine when I get the time.

 

[Melchior_1]

So much error and deception. Not to mention horrible slander and calumny. I will respond with true doctrine when I get the time.

Last I checked two Doctors of the Church are pretty reputable sources. Vouthon’s post contains the Mellifluous Doctor, and a soon-to-be Doctor.

I’d like you to respond to his post, which is free from slander, calumny, error, or deception, if you don’t mind.

 

[aicirt]

What if both sides are a part of the same coin, and both are correct?

Story;

Someone dies, they aren’t Catholic. They are, say, a non-practicing Hindu. They live a virtuous life, a few mistakes here or there. They do some questionable actions, but they’ve been conditioned by society to think this is acceptable. They get to the gates, and see Peter. Peter has a set of keys with him, which is a bit alarming to our Anglican friend. Peter tells them “hey, Jesus wants to talk to you”. Jesus shows up and says “hey fella, I’m the Man. And PS; Catholicism is on the money. Do you accept this?”

Perhaps people get one last chance to say yes. If they choose to say yes, they are in Heaven 100% Catholic. So yeah, Catholicism brings them salvation, but on Earth they weren’t Catholic.

I dunno, just a thought which probably makes no sense.

Baptism by desire as taught by the nuns many years ago. Made sense to me then and now.

 

[coachkfan1]

Two Church teachings:

• Baptism is NECESSARY for salvation (but does not ensure it. you must die in a state of grace)
• There is no salvation outside the Catholic Church

How can someone be baptised and a Catholic?

• Sacramental Baptism as a Catholic
• Baptism of Blood (non-Catholic dying for the Catholic faith)
• Baptism of desire - Explicit (those who want to know more about Christ and have the desire to get baptised but die before scaramental baptism - e.g.those in RCIA)
• Baptism of Desire - Implicit (those who may (not will) be saved through invincible ignorance meaning those who through no fault of their own do not know Christ, his Gospel and his Church but nevertheless in that ignorance still live a life in accordance with Christ’s teachings)

You may debate who is captured under invincible ignorance but outside the above four forms of baptism there is no salvation.

Not all Catholics are saved but everyone in Heaven is Catholic.

You mention sacramental baptism as a Catholic as one of the four acceptable forms of baptism. I was told that my baptism in the Methodist tradition was acceptable. Do you know something that my priest does not?

 

[clem456]

Hosea 4 4:6
“But let no one bring a charge,
let no one accuse another,
for your people are like those
who bring charges against a priest.
5 You stumble day and night,
and the prophets stumble with you.
So I will destroy your mother —
6 my people are destroyed from lack of knowledge.

 

[sdegutis]

You mention sacramental baptism as a Catholic as one of the four acceptable forms of baptism. I was told that my baptism in the Methodist tradition was acceptable. Do you know something that my priest does not?

The “as a Catholic” part was probably not necessary since the Church always teaches that “non-Catholic” Baptisms, so far as they contain the proper matter, form, and intent, are valid. That does, however, exclude baptisms from the Mormon churches, Oneness Pentecostal churches, etc. which are lacking in either proper matter, form, or intent, but typically Methodist, Lutheran, etc. baptisms adhere to all three requirements properly.

 

[Julia_Mae]

So much error and deception. Not to mention horrible slander and calumny. I will respond with true doctrine when I get the time.

While the pope did not affirm a theory propounded by some theologians holding that the Jews will be saved independently of Christ he did clearly say that the church should not be targeting Jews for conversion efforts.

“Israel is in the hands of God, who will save it ‘as a whole’ at the proper time, when the number of Gentiles is full,” the pope wrote. The historical duration of this “proper time,” Benedict says, cannot be calculated.

God never revokes his promises. The Jewish People will always be the chosen people. Catholics are simply spiritual Jews who have been grafted into the Olive tree of the Israel as a result of our faith in the Jewish Messiah.

Jews have a more natural right to be Catholic than any other people because they are still the Chosen People.

Also Jewish unbelief has a divine reason. God put a veil over their hearts so as to give Gentiles the chance to convert in droves. When the time of the Gentiles is completed, God himself will bring all his people into the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.

You are quite wrong.

In addition, the Old Covenant - while not salvific in any way - is not “finished” and modern Judaism is certainly not an anti-Christ religion. The Oral Torah actually has elements of genuine inspired truth and was the predecessor to Catholic Sacred Tradition. The New Testament embraces elements of the Oral Torah, so if that is your basis upon which to indict the modern rabbinical Jewish faith, then you’d better forget it.

CCC:
121 The Old Testament is an indispensable part of Sacred Scripture. Its books are divinely inspired and retain a permanent value,92 for the Old Covenant has never been
revoked.

Pope John Paul II
The Holy Father has stated this permanent reality of the Jewish people in a remarkable theological formula, in his allocution to the Jewish community of West Germany at Mainz, on 17 November 1980: “…the people of God of the Old Covenant, which has never been revoked…”jewishvirtuallibrary.org/…_the_Jews.html

This is the true doctrine. Stop posting heresy ITT, please.

 

[Julia_Mae]

You mention sacramental baptism as a Catholic as one of the four acceptable forms of baptism. I was told that my baptism in the Methodist tradition was acceptable. Do you know something that my priest does not?

All Trinitarian Baptism is true Baptism and is not repeated for any convert. Mine was, “conditionally” because the church where I was supposedly baptised couldn’t supply any records. I suppose, since we started it, so to speak, we can technically call it “Catholic baptism.”

 

[Julia_Mae]

Who belongs to the Catholic Church?

836 "All men are called to this catholic unity of the People of God. . . . And to it, in different ways, belong or are ordered: the Catholic faithful, others who believe in Christ, and finally all mankind, called by God’s grace to salvation."320

837 "Fully incorporated into the society of the Church are those who, possessing the Spirit of Christ, accept all the means of salvation given to the Church together with her entire organization, and who - by the bonds constituted by the profession of faith, the sacraments, ecclesiastical government, and communion - are joined in the visible structure of the Church of Christ, who rules her through the Supreme Pontiff and the bishops. Even though incorporated into the Church, one who does not however persevere in charity is not saved. He remains indeed in the bosom of the Church, but ‘in body’ not ‘in heart.’"321

838 "The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter."322 Those "who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church."323 With the Orthodox Churches, this communion is so profound "that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord’s Eucharist."324

The Church and non-Christians

839 "Those who have not yet received the Gospel are related to the People of God in various ways."325

The relationship of the Church with the Jewish People. When she delves into her own mystery, the Church, the People of God in the New Covenant, discovers her link with the Jewish People,326 "the first to hear the Word of God."327 The Jewish faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is already a response to God’s revelation in the Old Covenant. To the Jews “belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ”,328 "for the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable."329

840 And when one considers the future, God’s People of the Old Covenant and the new People of God tend towards similar goals: expectation of the coming (or the return) of the Messiah. But one awaits the return of the Messiah who died and rose from the dead and is recognized as Lord and Son of God; the other awaits the coming of a Messiah, whose features remain hidden till the end of time; and the latter waiting is accompanied by the drama of not knowing or of misunderstanding Christ Jesus.

 

[clem456]

Thanks for posting that Julia Mae.
The documents of Vatican 2 are absolutely stunning in their beauty and profundity.

 

[Juchara]

Yes, you are right!

 

[Julia_Mae]

Thanks for posting that Julia Mae.
The documents of Vatican 2 are absolutely stunning in their beauty and profundity.

I think so, too. A great light for the Church.

 

[Juchara]

I’m new here , nice thread!

 

[Vouthon]

A prophecy from a canonised saint:

"…The Pope will select twelve subjects of his religion whom he will send through the world to preach missions. They shall have the power of converting nations to the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ excepting the Hebrews who are reserved for the end of the world…”

- St. Ignatius of Santhia (1686 – 1770)