Has Eternal Life?

[mikeledes]

I think this quote explains the Catholic understanding of eternal life as being both a present and future reality:

Through baptism we have already received the seed of eternal life. … Jesus repeats: “He that believeth in Me, hath everlasting life.” Not only will he have it later on, but in a sense he already possesses it, for the life of grace is eternal life begun.

It is, in fact, the same life in its essence, just as the seed which is in an acorn has the same life as the full-grown oak, and as the spiritual soul of the little child is the same one that will eventually develop in the mature man.

Fundamentally, the same divine life exists as a germ or a seed in the Christian on earth and as a fully developed life in the saints in heaven. … It is hidden there like the mustard seed, like the leaven which causes the dough to rise, like the treasure buried in the field.

It’s from this website:

aimeemilburn.typepad.com/my_weblog/2006/07/the_life_of_gra.html

Here is another quote I’ve used before:

Regarding the first objection, “losing salvation” is not the termination of one’s own eternal life, but ceasing to participate in the one and only eternal life of God. It is impossible for God to give man eternal life independent of His own, as that would mean “creating God”, which is as impossible as creating a “square circle.” Thus, “losing salvation” occurs when one voluntarily rejects inclusion in the life of God by seriously violating the righteousness and holiness of His Trinitarian communion.

This is from:

ignatiusinsight.com/features2007/stewart_security_jan07.asp

Eternal life begins in the here and now for the Christian as a participation in th life of God through grace. Its consummation is when we inherit the kingdom of God. God, however, has established conditions in order for this consummation to occur, as stated in Romans 2.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

This is a good point. I return to my analysis of the parable of the prodigal son (Luke 15:11-32): Eternal life is something we inherit after this life, and only under the conditions God has revealed to us through Scripture. We don’t possess it proper until we partake of it in the Kingdom, but I can say I “have eternal life” meaning I have the promise of inheritence.

Yes, japhy, but is there not a difference between having and possessing? You might ask me, for example, “Do you have ten bucks i can borrow?” If i were to say, “Yes, i have it, but you can’t borrow it because it is in the bank” you might correct me and say, “I did not ask if you possess $10.00, i asked if you have $10.00.”

Likewise, Jesus said

“I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.”

(John 5:24)
He did not say

whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me possesses eternal life
By choosing the word has instead of possesses, didn’t Jesus mean that eternal life was a present possession and not a future one?

 

[japhy]

Yes, japhy, but is there not a difference between having and possessing? You might ask me, for example, “Do you have ten bucks i can borrow?” If i were to say, “Yes, i have it, but you can’t borrow it because it is in the bank” you might correct me and say, “I did not ask if you possess $10.00, i asked if you have $10.00.” By choosing the word has instead of possesses, didn’t Jesus mean that eternal life was a present possession and not a future one?

Only if you take that single quote of Jesus by itself. As I have shown elsewhere in this thread, there is a wealth of Scripture that identifies eternal life as an inheritence which we come into. It is an inheritence which we can act upon (cf. 1 Tim 6:12), but it is not a material or physical “thing” we can “have”.

“Eternal life” is like “trust”. If I say “you have my trust” it does not mean you claim ownership of it, or can use it as you desire, or can keep it apart from me.

Furthermore, Jesus is talking in eschatalogical terms, he is speaking of the judgment, a future event. He is contrasting those who hear him and believe in the Father (and thus have eternal life) with those who do not and are judged (that is, condemned).

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Only if you take that single quote of Jesus by itself. As I have shown elsewhere in this thread, there is a wealth of Scripture that identifies eternal life as an inheritence which we come into. It is an inheritence which we can act upon (cf. 1 Tim 6:12), but it is not a material or physical “thing” we can “have”.

“Eternal life” is like “trust”. If I say “you have my trust” it does not mean you claim ownership of it, or can use it as you desire, or can keep it apart from me.

Furthermore, Jesus is talking in eschatalogical terms, he is speaking of the judgment, a future event. He is contrasting those who hear him and believe in the Father (and thus have eternal life) with those who do not and are judged (that is, condemned).

Would you say then, japhy, that eternal life is both something the true child of God has and also possesses? That is, are you saying there is not one eternal life but two? It seems to me this might be the case, for there is an eternal life that is not physical (which the Bible appears to teach we have in the present) and an eternal life that is physical (which the Bible teaches we will only have when our physical bodies are raised from the grave immortal so that we will be able to live physically in the world to come).

If this is the case, then the key to understanding what the Bible teaches about eternal life is to know whether the particular author is speaking of the spiritual life or the physical life that never ends. Do you agree?

 

[guanophore]

Only if you take that single quote of Jesus by itself. As I have shown elsewhere in this thread, there is a wealth of Scripture that identifies eternal life as an inheritence which we come into. It is an inheritence which we can act upon (cf. 1 Tim 6:12), but it is not a material or physical “thing” we can “have”.

“Eternal life” is like “trust”. If I say “you have my trust” it does not mean you claim ownership of it, or can use it as you desire, or can keep it apart from me.

Furthermore, Jesus is talking in eschatalogical terms, he is speaking of the judgment, a future event. He is contrasting those who hear him and believe in the Father (and thus have eternal life) with those who do not and are judged (that is, condemned).

Do you not think that “the kingdom of heaven” is the same thing as eternal life? If you agree they are the same, then scripture is clear that eternal life begins right now. If you say they are different, then there are two types of heaven, one now,and a different one later.

 

[clmowry]

I think you need one more term: “Charity”.

Charity:

The theological virtue by which we love God above all things for his own sake, and our neighbor as ourselves for the love of God

This brings immidiately to mind the 3 theological virtues: Faith, Hope and Charity.

This doesn’t necessarily help clear up your definition of “Love”.

But the “cause-effect” relationship your looking to unravel may lie in the interaction between these three?

I’ll have to give it some more thought, but I thought I’d plant the seed with others while the thought is still in my brain.

i.e. Perhaps “Love” is the things we do, and the cause is Faith (or Hope).

Chuck

What we are considering are the requirements to receive eternal life as they relate to Romans 2:7

To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.On our journey to the truth of the meaning of this passage, we have narrowed these requirements to at least two: repentance and faith (together being one) and perhaps also love.

There was an objection raised about the definition of love upon which we agreed, so we went down a rabbit trail off the side of our highway to heaven. The trail has ended in the briers of confusion. At this point, then, i think i shall attempt to use the machete of reason to cut through the confusion and bring us safely back to the Roman road. I will try by giving my best guess at the true definition of love.

The difficulty in getting our minds around this is the broad understanding of the word. One might say"I love pizza!"“I love my job.”“I love you, honey.”“I love you like a brother.”“Love your neighbor as yourself.”“Love your enemies.” so that clearly we mean different things depending on how we use the word. The question we are trying to answer is what did our good friend St. John mean when he used the word love? If we know what he meant, then we have our definition. We can say, with confidence, this is the kind of love that a Christian should have.

If Edwin had chosen to stay with us, i’m sure he would have told us that the Greeks had more than one word for love, each with a different definition. However, there are other sources upon which we might rely, such as this link: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_words_for_love

Here we find four Greek words:

• Storge - an natural affection, like that felt by parents for offspring.
• Philia - meaning friendship, a dispassionate virtuous love that includes loyalty to friends, family, and community.
• Eros - which is a passionate love, with sensual desire and longing. It can mean romantic love, but does not have to be sexual in nature. It can be interpreted as a love for someone who you love more than the love of friendship.
• Agape - an unselfish, giving, self-sacrificing love like that which God has for us. It is a love that one has regardless of the relationship to the person, and which is for both one’s friends and enemies.
  Agape, Edwin might have told us, is the Greek word used in St. John’s epistles and in St. Paul’s first letter to the church at Corinth. With this word as our guide, though i fear failing in the attempt, let me hazard a guess at a definition for the kind of love about which the Apostles wrote

Love is a person’s response to the love God has shown him. It is a decision, which is motivated by God’s love for himself, to love God in return by loving others as God has loved him. Notice three things: (1) love is a response to God’s love, and (2) love is a decision to return God’s love by loving others as he has loved you and me, and (3) love is not the loving things you say and do. These good works are the result of love, not love itself.

If anyone has any objections to this definition, or suggestions as to how it might be improved, or questions regarding this definition of love, please post a reply. If not, and if no one objects, i hope you will all return to the main path of our quest to find the truth about Romans, chapter 2.

 

[clmowry]

I think you need to be careful here about being too precise in parsing of the english language in drawing your conclusions.

“has” or “possess” Christ didn’t say either. He probably said something in Aramaic. You might at least want to look at the greek used.

Chuck

Yes, japhy, but is there not a difference between having and possessing? You might ask me, for example, “Do you have ten bucks i can borrow?” If i were to say, “Yes, i have it, but you can’t borrow it because it is in the bank” you might correct me and say, “I did not ask if you possess $10.00, i asked if you have $10.00.”

Likewise, Jesus said

“I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.”(John 5:24)He did not say

whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me possesses eternal life By choosing the word has instead of possesses, didn’t Jesus mean that eternal life was a present possession and not a future one?

 

[japhy]

That is, are you saying there is not one eternal life but two?

Do you not think that “the kingdom of heaven” is the same thing as eternal life? If you agree they are the same, then scripture is clear that eternal life begins right now. If you say they are different, then there are two types of heaven, one now,and a different one later.

No, I do not believe there are “two heavens” or “two eternal lifes”. The previous posts of mine (#78 and #79) go over most of the references to eternal life in Scripture. It is our inheritence; we come into when we are judged at the end of our earthly lives. The giving (or realization) of eternal life is a future event that coincides with our judgment. The receipt of the promise, the inclusion in the inheritence (since eternal life is God’s, we are merely partakers in His divine life), comes in this life; but inheritence can be forfeited. We are said to “share in eternal life” insofaras we receive graces from God because of it, graces that are meant to help us endure and persevere until the race is done and we receive the prize.

Here are some references to eternal life or everlasting life from the Catechism:

161 Without faith no one has ever attained justification, nor will anyone obtain eternal life ‘But he who endures to the end.’"

163 Faith makes us taste in advance the light of the beatific vision, the goal of our journey here below. Then we shall see God “face to face”, “as he is”. So faith is already the beginning of eternal life.

996 From the beginning, Christian faith in the resurrection has met with incomprehension and opposition. … How can we believe that this body, so clearly mortal, could rise to everlasting life?

1020 The Christian who unites his own death to that of Jesus views it as a step towards him and an entrance into everlasting life.

1060 At the end of time, the Kingdom of God will come in its fullness. Then the just will reign with Christ for ever, glorified in body and soul, and the material universe itself will be transformed. God will then be “all in all” (1 Cor 15:28), in eternal life.

1130 In the sacraments of Christ the Church already receives the guarantee of her inheritance and even now shares in everlasting life, while “awaiting our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Christ Jesus.” The “Spirit and the Bride say, ‘Come . . . Come, Lord Jesus!’”

1274 The Holy Spirit has marked us with the seal of the Lord (“Dominicus character”) “for the day of redemption.” "Baptism indeed is the seal of eternal life."

1326 Finally, by the Eucharistic celebration we already unite ourselves with the heavenly liturgy and anticipate eternal life, when God will be all in all.

1419 Participation in the Holy Sacrifice identifies us with his Heart, sustains our strength along the pilgrimage of this life, makes us long for eternal life, and unites us even now to the Church in heaven, the Blessed Virgin Mary, and all the saints.

1726 The Beatitudes teach us the final end to which God calls us: the Kingdom, the vision of God, participation in the divine nature, eternal life, filiation, rest in God.

1727 The beatitude of eternal life is a gratuitous gift of God. It is supernatural, as is the grace that leads us there.

1817 Hope is the theological virtue by which we desire the kingdom of heaven and eternal life as our happiness, placing our trust in Christ’s promises and relying not on our own strength, but on the help of the grace of the Holy Spirit. “Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for he who promised is faithful.” “The Holy Spirit . . . he poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that we might be justified by his grace and become heirs in hope of eternal life.”

1843 By hope we desire, and with steadfast trust await from God, eternal life and the graces to merit it.

2020 Justification … has for its goal the glory of God and of Christ, and the gift of eternal life.

2557 “I want to see God” expresses the true desire of man. Thirst for God is quenched by the water of eternal life (cf. Jn 4:14).

2652 The Holy Spirit is the living water “welling up to eternal life” in the heart that prays. It is he who teaches us to accept it at its source: Christ. Indeed in the Christian life there are several wellsprings where Christ awaits us to enable us to drink of the Holy Spirit.

Perhaps this issue should be taken up with a professional apologist in that forum?

 

[mikeledes]

ETERNAL LIFE. The term used by Christ to describe the state of endless happiness enjoyed by the just in heaven (Matthew 25:46; Mark 9:44; Luke 18:30; John 3, 4, 5, 6, 10, 12). It means not only everlasting duration but also fullness of life, which the believer possesses already here and now through participation in the life of God.

Verbum Caro posted this definition of eternal life which came from the Pocket Catholic Dictionary:

therealpresence.org/cgi-bin/getdefinition.pl

God Bless,
Michael

 

[japhy]

Verbum Caro posted this definition of eternal life which came from the Pocket Catholic Dictionary:

ETERNAL LIFE. The term used by Christ to describe the state of endless happiness enjoyed by the just in heaven (Matthew 25:46; Mark 9:44; Luke 18:30; John 3, 4, 5, 6, 10, 12). It means not only everlasting duration but also fullness of life, which the believer possesses already here and now through participation in the life of God.

therealpresence.org/dictionary/dictaintro.htm

If there are two “components” to eternal life, then, it is clear we are partakers on earth of the “fullness of life” component, whereas the “everlasting duration” component is that which we enter into in heaven. The “fullness of life” component coincides with 1 Tim 6:12: Fight the good fight of the faith; take hold of the eternal life to which you were called when you made the good confession in the presence of many witnesses.

 

[mikeledes]

If there are two “components” to eternal life, then, it is clear we are partakers on earth of the “fullness of life” component, whereas the “everlasting duration” component is that which we enter into in heaven. The “fullness of life” component coincides with 1 Tim 6:12: Fight the good fight of the faith; take hold of the eternal life to which you were called when you made the good confession in the presence of many witnesses.

Yes. We participate in the life of God, which is eternal, through grace, in the here and now, but we enjoy this eternally and in its greatest degree in the age to come.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

I think you need one more term: “Charity”.

Charity:

The theological virtue by which we love God above all things for his own sake, and our neighbor as ourselves for the love of God

This brings immidiately to mind the 3 theological virtues: Faith, Hope and Charity.

This doesn’t necessarily help clear up your definition of “Love”.

But the “cause-effect” relationship your looking to unravel may lie in the interaction between these three?

I’ll have to give it some more thought, but I thought I’d plant the seed with others while the thought is still in my brain.

i.e. Perhaps “Love” is the things we do, and the cause is Faith (or Hope).

Chuck

Thanks, Chuck. Actually, when i write love i mean Charity. In more modern translations of the Bible, the word love is substituted for the more archaic word charity.

We have been considering the role faith and repentance and charity (or love) play in salvation. I’m not sure how hope plays into it. Faith seems more to do with certainty and hope might have more to do with making a best guess. I can have complete trust in God (faith) but when it comes to making day to day decisions about how to best obey him, i’m often less certain, and so i can only hope i am living in a way that pleases him.

I’ve also heard others say that faith has to do with having a rational trust of God, while hope has to do with not being discouraged. That is, faith has to do with reason while hope has to do with emotion. I like this explanation as well. Which is the truth, i cannot tell.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

I think you need to be careful here about being too precise in parsing of the english language in drawing your conclusions.

“has” or “possess” Christ didn’t say either. He probably said something in Aramaic. You might at least want to look at the greek used.

Chuck

Thanks, Chuck. Do you know what Greek word was used so i can look it up? I was assuming it was the same word for has, as that is the word most, if not all, of the good translations use.

“I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.”
– Jesus (John 5:24)

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Yes. We participate in the life of God, which is eternal, through grace, in the here and now, but we enjoy this eternally and in its greatest degree in the age to come.

God Bless,
Michael

Yes, makes sense to me.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Hey, japhy, Michael, Chuck and Guano. Would you like to discuss Romans 2:7 some more, or is this thread getting way too long?

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

I want to thank all of you for sticking with me through this as long as you did. Blessings to you!

 

[mikeledes]

Hey, japhy, Michael, Chuck and Guano. Would you like to discuss Romans 2:7 some more, or is this thread getting way too long?

If this will end before I hit fifty, yes.

God Bless,
Michael